CTALNH wrote:Good also legalize and hand out death penalty to all their members....
Disagreed.
Article 102 GG:
Capital punishment is abolished.
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by Zottistan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:17 pm
CTALNH wrote:Good also legalize and hand out death penalty to all their members....
by Maineiacs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:18 pm
by CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:19 pm
by Illestia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:19 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Illestia wrote:
Yes because that's actually what a democracy is about. If ideas that differ from the norm, no matter how stupid, are outlawed it's not a democracy.
Besides: The laws still apply, so every partaking in illegal activity by members of the party can still be prosecuted.
And on a sidenote: banning the NPD might very well just make them martyrs in the eyes of the far right and cause certain right groups to escalate their methods, leading to more violence.
Personally i think that the only purpose of the motion to ban them is to distract from the horrible failure in the solving and possibly prevention of the NSU murders.
This isn't a matter of the party being stupid. It's the matter of the party being a criminal conspiracy to establish a totalitarian state. In other words, it's an existential threat to any free society.
Is the move to ban them now more motivated by realpolitik? Yes. But the fundamental principle is still sound. THis isn't an anti-democratic action. What would be antidemocratic, though, would be to leave the gates open an unbarred to existential threats to a free society.
by Trotskylvania » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:19 pm
Kazarogkai wrote:The Joseon Dynasty wrote:If the government wants to prevent far-right ideologies from taking root, the better approach would be to tackle the core of the problem, rather than stifling them altogether. I thought Germany of all countries would have learned that.
The best way to destroy something is simply, to ignore them. Do not give them any attention for if you do give them attention then since they are attention whores that will only empower them. Example the tea party though they are few in numbers because they got so much attention they had a very big voice and way more power in proportion to their size as a whole.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:21 pm
by Zohai » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:23 pm
Zottistan wrote:Trotskylvania wrote:They have. It's in the party's constitution. They are unreconstructed Nazis, and have made it quite clear they intend to abolish democracy if they ever take power.
If the people vote them into power knowing that they intend to remove democracy, the people have voted an end to democracy. Democracy demands that the people get what the people vote for. The bit I was interested in was the "criminal conspiracy" bit. Have they ever said that they plan to overthrow the government? Not the republic, but the governing body of the republic?
by Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:24 pm
Illestia wrote:Yes, it's a paradox, but a democracy, in order to be one, must accept undemocratic thoughts. Otherwise it is not a democracy.
Bythyrona wrote:Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.
Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
by Trotskylvania » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:28 pm
Zottistan wrote:Trotskylvania wrote:They have. It's in the party's constitution. They are unreconstructed Nazis, and have made it quite clear they intend to abolish democracy if they ever take power.
If the people vote them into power knowing that they intend to remove democracy, the people have voted an end to democracy. Democracy demands that the people get what the people vote for. The bit I was interested in was the "criminal conspiracy" bit. Have they ever said that they plan to overthrow the government? Not the republic, but the governing body of the republic?
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Zottistan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:28 pm
Zohai wrote:Zottistan wrote:If the people vote them into power knowing that they intend to remove democracy, the people have voted an end to democracy. Democracy demands that the people get what the people vote for. The bit I was interested in was the "criminal conspiracy" bit. Have they ever said that they plan to overthrow the government? Not the republic, but the governing body of the republic?
The notion that democracy needs to allow it's destruction is so stupid.
by Zohai » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:29 pm
by Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:29 pm
Except no, it doesn't. Democracy cannot exist when parties who break no laws are banned.
Bythyrona wrote:Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.
Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
by Illestia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:30 pm
by Trotskylvania » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:31 pm
Zottistan wrote:Zohai wrote:
The notion that democracy needs to allow it's destruction is so stupid.
It's also correct. Maybe expand on your argument a little.Zaras wrote:
Meanwhile, in reality, democracy remains democracy despite banning parties that actively call for its destruction.
Except no, it doesn't. Democracy cannot exist when parties who break no laws are banned.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:32 pm
Illestia wrote:Actually no. A democracy either allows diversity in opinions or chooses what opinions to allow.
One of the points that define a democracy is to allow opposition.
Bythyrona wrote:Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.
Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
by Zottistan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:39 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Zottistan wrote:If the people vote them into power knowing that they intend to remove democracy, the people have voted an end to democracy. Democracy demands that the people get what the people vote for. The bit I was interested in was the "criminal conspiracy" bit. Have they ever said that they plan to overthrow the government? Not the republic, but the governing body of the republic?
But people don't vote to remove democracy.
The last time this happened in Germany, the Nazis...
They were able to do all of this precisely because they were free to organize, and considered a legitimate political party rather than the existential threat to the republic that they were.
Someone quoted the head of the NDP earlier in this thread, in which he directly admits they have no respect for legality or the democratic state: "We from the NPD are proud that we are standing in the German domestic intelligence reports every year for supposedly being unconstitutional and against this system. Yes, we are unconstitutional when it comes to fight this system."
I cannot stress this enough: I am not being hyperbolic when I say they are Nazis. They are absolutely unreconstructed "national socialists", and would openly organize as the NSDAP if they could get away with it.
by Zohai » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:41 pm
Illestia wrote:Zaras wrote:
Meanwhile, in reality, democracy remains democracy despite banning parties that actively call for its destruction.
Actually no. A democracy either allows diversity in opinions or chooses what opinions to allow. In the second case it is no longer a democracy.
One of the points that define a democracy is to allow opposition.
Just because something is called a democracy doesn't mean it is.
germany isn't one for multiple reasons, one being that the government is in no way bound to the voters will. Yes, they need to be elected, but after that they are completely seperated from the, supposed, souvereign, i.e. the voters.
by Indira » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:44 pm
by Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm
Indira wrote:Banning them is ironically in itself antithetical to democracy.
by Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:47 pm
Zottistan wrote:The Nazis were an entirely different situation. They used illegal methods like coercion to come to power, and they should have been nipped in the bud for the illegal way they came to power, not for their beliefs, or what they intended to do after they came to power.
Bythyrona wrote:Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.
Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
by Zottistan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:48 pm
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:Indira wrote:Banning them is ironically in itself antithetical to democracy.
I've barely got the energy to do more than that.
How is banning parties that violate the German Constitution and are essentially criminal, as well as being inherently anti-democratic, an anti-democratic idea?
by Zottistan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:49 pm
Zaras wrote:Zottistan wrote:The Nazis were an entirely different situation. They used illegal methods like coercion to come to power, and they should have been nipped in the bud for the illegal way they came to power, not for their beliefs, or what they intended to do after they came to power.
So the Machtergreifung was bad, but the Holocaust was A-OK.
Nice priorities.
by Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:50 pm
Zottistan wrote:Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
I've barely got the energy to do more than that.
How is banning parties that violate the German Constitution and are essentially criminal, as well as being inherently anti-democratic, an anti-democratic idea?
Constitutions in their own right are anti-democratic.
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