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by Erastide » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:39 pm
by Marcuslandia » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:37 pm
Erastide wrote:Founders offer an optout. Getting a founder isn't that hard unless you're extremely attached to your region and unwilling to move to a region you create yourself. The discussion about replacing founders can offer those regions some hope perhaps. But I personally don't see why an "opt-out" option needs to be added.
Marcuslandia wrote:Guaranteed protection: Be the Founder! -- Good for you, but for everyone else they can only hope that you actually stick with it forever, that you don't turn out to be a petulant control freak, that you aren't so incredibly laissez-faire that you just "let everything sort itself out on its own", that that, that
Lose your Founder? Re-Found! -- As mentioned in several places, the larger the region, the more hassle is involved. And the new region is _never_ quite the same as the old one. And after going through all that hassle, there's no guarantee that the new Founder will stick with it any longer than the last one.
by Erastide » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:11 pm
by Fatatatutti » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:48 pm
by Marcuslandia » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:45 pm
Erastide wrote:Founder has absolute rights. You don't like it, you can leave and form your own region with the regionmates that agree with you.
Refounding, yes that'll be a problem. But there are too many factors to create a standard plan for refounding. You can't make everyone happy when it comes to refounding a long time region. And at some point, you can't guarantee everyone's safety. Founders offer them a chance, and the discussion on replacing founders offers a possible venue to helping regions when their founder goes missing. Much more than that is a bit overboard.
by Martyrdoom » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:16 am
Fatatatutti wrote:When you come right down to it, the game has developed a pretty good system of checks and balances that prevent anybody from getting his own way all the time.
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:47 am
Fatatatutti wrote:When you come right down to it, the game has developed a pretty good system of checks and balances that prevent anybody from getting his own way all the time.
by Whamabama » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:22 am
Marcuslandia wrote:
The whole discussion about Founders, and Re-Founders, and Replacement Founders is actually just a distraction. The bottomline to the whole discussion is that quite a few players simply do NOT want to get dragged into the I/D game. So why NOT go directly to _the_ issue: We want to be left alone! Instead what is proposed over and over again is the same methods that are riddled with shortcomings and loopholes that invaders keep on exploiting.
And maybe that's exactly the kind of "solution" they want to continue to see? "What we have now works for us because it guarantees we continue to find easy targets. And why anything that actually does a better job of reducing the number of easy regions we can pick off is something that NEEDS to be fought tooth-and-nail."
by Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:17 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:The whole discussion about Founders, and Re-Founders, and Replacement Founders is actually just a distraction. The bottomline to the whole discussion is that quite a few players simply do NOT want to get dragged into the I/D game. So why NOT go directly to _the_ issue: We want to be left alone! Instead what is proposed over and over again is the same methods that are riddled with shortcomings and loopholes that invaders keep on exploiting.
And maybe that's exactly the kind of "solution" they want to continue to see? "What we have now works for us because it guarantees we continue to find easy targets. And why anything that actually does a better job of reducing the number of easy regions we can pick off is something that NEEDS to be fought tooth-and-nail."
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:33 pm
Whamabama wrote:
Don't want to be a part of the military gameplay? Then don't. There is no need for game changes. You simply don't mess with it. Join an active community, with an active founder. Worried he will leave? Found your own region. What you want is easily attainable.
Trouble here is, you don't want just to be left alone, you want to change the entire aspect of the game. You want to ensure that you always get your way, even if it means destroying the game for countless others. At the same time ignoring the advice of anyone telling you how you can reach your goal.
There are many types of regions out there. Choosing one that fits you might take a little time perhaps, but visiting different communities can also be entertaining in itself.
Erastide wrote:At a certain point, you are playing a game. You have a way to remove yourself from it to a certain point if your safety is superduper important to you, get in a region with a founder. You and your buddies can found another region if you love each other so much. If you value the identity of your region, then your regionmates will have to agree to refound the region. Max decreed that invasion/defending would happen. Rules were put in place to mitigate the worst of the effects, but not all problems will go away.
Marcuslandia wrote:My problems with the existing solutions (I was tempted to put the last word in quotes):
Guaranteed protection: Be the Founder! -- Good for you, but for everyone else they can only hope that you actually stick with it forever, that you don't turn out to be a petulant control freak, that you aren't so incredibly laissez-faire that you just "let everything sort itself out on its own", that that, that
Lose your Founder? Re-Found! -- As mentioned in several places, the larger the region, the more hassle is involved. And the new region is _never_ quite the same as the old one. And after going through all that hassle, there's no guarantee that the new Founder will stick with it any longer than the last one.
Don't want to go to the bother of re-Founding? Have the Delegate install a password! -- Not a bad solution if the region is closed to immigration, or if it's a tight knit group that KNOW they can trust each other. Then a visible password will suffice. But if a region would like to grow _quickly_, any kind of password makes certain that the process be anything but "quick" growth. And if it's a visible password in a region that welcomes immigrants, the probability that one of those immigrants is an infiltrator that will share the password with his invader buddies approaches 100%.
by Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:40 pm
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:53 pm
Erastide wrote:Do you have anything new to add? Requoting yourself isn't exactly adding to the discussion.
by Martyrdoom » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:20 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:Erastide wrote:Do you have anything new to add? Requoting yourself isn't exactly adding to the discussion.
You reiterate a couple inadequate "solutions" and I reiterate why those "solutions" are inadequate. Repeatedly saying "Go Found your own region!" is a _fine_ solution -- for that ONE person, but what about the 50 other players in his region? "Re-Found the region!" is a _fine_ solution if you have advanced training in herding cats, and a quite logical progression in rational logistics -- ONE person leaves, so now 50 players have to coordinate a move to a new home that ALL of them agree should the one they should share.
Riiiiggghhhhttt. Totally adequate solution. The question is, adequate for _who_? Not the people made to jump through hoops, that's for sure.
My proposed solution in contrast is incredibly simple in comparison: one tick in a check box and the desired result is accomplished.
by Whamabama » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:41 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:
You reiterate a couple inadequate "solutions" and I reiterate why those "solutions" are inadequate. Repeatedly saying "Go Found your own region!" is a _fine_ solution -- for that ONE person, but what about the 50 other players in his region? "Re-Found the region!" is a _fine_ solution if you have advanced training in herding cats, and a quite logical progression in rational logistics -- ONE person leaves, so now 50 players have to coordinate a move to a new home that ALL of them agree should the one they should share.
Riiiiggghhhhttt. Totally adequate solution. The question is, adequate for _who_? Not the people made to jump through hoops, that's for sure.
My proposed solution in contrast is incredibly simple in comparison: one tick in a check box and the desired result is accomplished.
by Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:46 pm
Whamabama wrote:Marcuslandia wrote:Erastide wrote:
You reiterate a couple inadequate "solutions" and I reiterate why those "solutions" are inadequate. Repeatedly saying "Go Found your own region!" is a _fine_ solution -- for that ONE person, but what about the 50 other players in his region? "Re-Found the region!" is a _fine_ solution if you have advanced training in herding cats, and a quite logical progression in rational logistics -- ONE person leaves, so now 50 players have to coordinate a move to a new home that ALL of them agree should the one they should share.
Riiiiggghhhhttt. Totally adequate solution. The question is, adequate for _who_? Not the people made to jump through hoops, that's for sure.
My proposed solution in contrast is incredibly simple in comparison: one tick in a check box and the desired result is accomplished.
Trouble with your solution is it gets rid of an entire aspect of the game that many of us enjoy. Simply because you don't want to do anything that might be a challenge. You also don't want to go to a different region. Listen I feel for your predicament. I really do. However I am not willing to see my game eliminated to help you.
by Romanar » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:54 pm
Whamabama wrote:Trouble with your solution is it gets rid of an entire aspect of the game that many of us enjoy. Simply because you don't want to do anything that might be a challenge. You also don't want to go to a different region. Listen I feel for your predicament. I really do. However I am not willing to see my game eliminated to help you.
by Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:20 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:You reiterate a couple inadequate "solutions" and I reiterate why those "solutions" are inadequate. Repeatedly saying "Go Found your own region!" is a _fine_ solution -- for that ONE person, but what about the 50 other players in his region? "Re-Found the region!" is a _fine_ solution if you have advanced training in herding cats, and a quite logical progression in rational logistics -- ONE person leaves, so now 50 players have to coordinate a move to a new home that ALL of them agree should the one they should share.
Riiiiggghhhhttt. Totally adequate solution. The question is, adequate for _who_? Not the people made to jump through hoops, that's for sure.
My proposed solution in contrast is incredibly simple in comparison: one tick in a check box and the desired result is accomplished.
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:24 pm
Whamabama wrote:Trouble with your solution is it gets rid of an entire aspect of the game that many of us enjoy. Simply because you don't want to do anything that might be a challenge. You also don't want to go to a different region. Listen I feel for your predicament. I really do. However I am not willing to see my game eliminated to help you.
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:27 pm
Erastide wrote:If all of the people can't agree to move to another region or refound together then they don't *really* have their safety as their paramount concern. And that's fine, people can stay together without the absolute safety of a founder.
Opting out leads to all sorts of problems when it comes to people legitimately moving in and out. You want the security, get a founder. That's the way the game is, and there doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to justify this new structure.
by Romanar » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:45 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:Oh, please. If you don't want to go to the bother of buying a pistol and getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon, then you must not really care about being mugged and possibly murdered.
by Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:50 pm
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:55 pm
Romanar wrote:Likewise, I have a puppet in a vulnerable region, and if that region really expected to get destroyed like Belgium, we COULD refound. Personally, I think we SHOULD refound, since NS is even worse than my RL neighborhood, but I understand the concerns raised about doing so, and it's up to the region one way or the other.
by Romanar » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:03 pm
Marcuslandia wrote:Romanar wrote:Likewise, I have a puppet in a vulnerable region, and if that region really expected to get destroyed like Belgium, we COULD refound. Personally, I think we SHOULD refound, since NS is even worse than my RL neighborhood, but I understand the concerns raised about doing so, and it's up to the region one way or the other.
Looking for your opinion: IF your region could identify itself as a nonparticipant in the I/D game, assuring that it was not an eligible target for a hostile takeover, would you go that route rather totally re-Founding the region?
by Marcuslandia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:22 pm
Erastide wrote:LOL
So outline a workable way for this to function. One that is automated and doesn't require moderator interpretation of events. Most of us will still disagree with the option, but at least it would be something possible to put into the game. As it stands the opt-out option is just an idea for more protection.
by Whamabama » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:05 pm
Erastide wrote:
Learn how to do your quotes properly. >_> You keep making me say things I didn't.
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