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by Freedom of United Trevor » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:19 pm
by Alyekra » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:04 am
Freedom of United Trevor wrote:I think this is a great idea,
We got to solve the cyberbulling epidemic.
We should still have Free Speech'' It's everybody's right" but we got to remind what's right and wrong on here.
by Ethel mermania » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:58 am
NERVUN wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=200011&p=10963596&hilit=ethel#p10963596
i'm not referring to his bitching about me, but the initial post i was responding too, which he helpfully provided. Now any other conversation we have about it as a meta conversation, will violate a few forum rules. Do i have permission to do so?
Color me confused here as that's a post in Moderation... which is what we want to encourage.
by Condunum » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:15 am
Ethel mermania wrote:NERVUN wrote:Color me confused here as that's a post in Moderation... which is what we want to encourage.
First, thanks for putting up with this discussion, i do appreciate the ability to give feed back that is taken seriously
i think i was unclear in what i was referring too, not that in this instance moderation worked (which it did), but the original troll post. The post that i was responding too. In most cases trolling is not the idea that is expressed but how the idea is expressed. for example the following:
"Choronzon wrote:
Can someone tell me what the fuck a Jew is doing attacking Islam for being anti-women and filled with violent religious commandments? I've read their tribal laws."
he could have said it with other words that would have made it non trolling, he still would have been wrong on many levels but at least in a civil fashion. But that is not the point. The point is, you would rather this get reported to moderation?
By the time a moderator gets to it, its 6 hours later, and it has been overheated, requiring multiple whackings of the warn hammers, and newspapers. Do you really want to warn on everything> A quick "don't be a troll" at the time of the post by two or three posters should be enough to get the OP to say to themselves (if their intent is not to troll), "hmmm why does everyone think i am trolling". Then they can self correct. Making moderation do it, will make everyone run to moderation, tripling your work load, for no reason at all. it also will give records to folks who really do not need or deserve it.
Ultimately it is the site owners choice in how he wants his site run, i just don't think he is doing himself or his users any favors. The end result, i believe, will make the forums more contentious not less and will make the problem of flaming and trolling instead of respectful discussion increase rather than decrease.
by The God-Realm » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:30 am
by Esternial » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:39 am
Condunum wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:
First, thanks for putting up with this discussion, i do appreciate the ability to give feed back that is taken seriously
i think i was unclear in what i was referring too, not that in this instance moderation worked (which it did), but the original troll post. The post that i was responding too. In most cases trolling is not the idea that is expressed but how the idea is expressed. for example the following:
"Choronzon wrote:
Can someone tell me what the fuck a Jew is doing attacking Islam for being anti-women and filled with violent religious commandments? I've read their tribal laws."
he could have said it with other words that would have made it non trolling, he still would have been wrong on many levels but at least in a civil fashion. But that is not the point. The point is, you would rather this get reported to moderation?
By the time a moderator gets to it, its 6 hours later, and it has been overheated, requiring multiple whackings of the warn hammers, and newspapers. Do you really want to warn on everything> A quick "don't be a troll" at the time of the post by two or three posters should be enough to get the OP to say to themselves (if their intent is not to troll), "hmmm why does everyone think i am trolling". Then they can self correct. Making moderation do it, will make everyone run to moderation, tripling your work load, for no reason at all. it also will give records to folks who really do not need or deserve it.
Ultimately it is the site owners choice in how he wants his site run, i just don't think he is doing himself or his users any favors. The end result, i believe, will make the forums more contentious not less and will make the problem of flaming and trolling instead of respectful discussion increase rather than decrease.
In that situation, "don't be a troll" still isn't necessary. A friendly reminder to calm down, or kindly reminding them that they're getting out of hand has always been acceptable.
The problem is that calling someone a troll rarely works, because it often just angers the other poster. Perhaps this isn't true for most of the regulars, but we at least know that calling new people trolls just because they seem trollish doesn't help as often as we'd like.
Just explaining to them that they need to calm down helps. If they are a troll, they won't listen, and you should probably report them. If they aren't a troll, they might notice that their words are going to get them in trouble, and double back on them, as I've seen that does get you out of some trouble with moderation.
by Dyakovo » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:04 am
Esternial wrote:Condunum wrote:
In that situation, "don't be a troll" still isn't necessary. A friendly reminder to calm down, or kindly reminding them that they're getting out of hand has always been acceptable.
The problem is that calling someone a troll rarely works, because it often just angers the other poster. Perhaps this isn't true for most of the regulars, but we at least know that calling new people trolls just because they seem trollish doesn't help as often as we'd like.
Just explaining to them that they need to calm down helps. If they are a troll, they won't listen, and you should probably report them. If they aren't a troll, they might notice that their words are going to get them in trouble, and double back on them, as I've seen that does get you out of some trouble with moderation.
I honestly don't know what everyone's complaining about. Is it too hard to write a decent response to the poster to ask him/her to stop his shenanigans (and report him/her in the meantime)?
by Neo Art » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:07 am
Esternial wrote:I honestly don't know what everyone's complaining about.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:12 am
Neo Art wrote:I contend, as I have from the onset, that this is remarkably silly, as the only people who would use "you're a troll" as a means to shut down a discussion are the people who were legitimately were trying to find a way to incite in the first place. Which is the definition of trolling. Which means, as I said before, "trollnaming" only hampers discourse when it's true.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by United Dependencies » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:18 am
Alien Space Bats wrote:2012: The Year We Lost Contact (with Reality).
Cannot think of a name wrote:Obamacult wrote:Maybe there is an economically sound and rational reason why there are no longer high paying jobs for qualified accountants, assembly line workers, glass blowers, blacksmiths, tanners, etc.
Maybe dragons took their jobs. Maybe unicorns only hid their jobs because unicorns are dicks. Maybe 'jobs' is only an illusion created by a drug addled infant pachyderm. Fuck dude, if we're in 'maybe' land, don't hold back.
by Neo Art » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:24 am
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Neo Art wrote:I contend, as I have from the onset, that this is remarkably silly, as the only people who would use "you're a troll" as a means to shut down a discussion are the people who were legitimately were trying to find a way to incite in the first place. Which is the definition of trolling. Which means, as I said before, "trollnaming" only hampers discourse when it's true.
This, so many times.
by Jormengand » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:25 am
Neo Art wrote:Sometimes, it's good to be right.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Ethel mermania » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:27 am
Dyakovo wrote:Esternial wrote:I honestly don't know what everyone's complaining about. Is it too hard to write a decent response to the poster to ask him/her to stop his shenanigans (and report him/her in the meantime)?
There seems to be an attitude among the people complaining about the rule that making a report in moderation makes you a bad person...
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:28 am
Neo Art wrote:Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
This, so many times.
What continues to just amuse me is, on Thursday, I made a post on this thread basically saying "I find this policy silly as it's rather insulting to the NSG community at large implying they don't know a troll when they see one.
a bunch of people got warned for "trollnaming" pretty much at the same exact time.
On Saturday I reitterate my point, the only time "trollnaming" could actually side track conversation was when it was actually true.
Within two hours of me making that point, the OP of the thread where several people were warned for "trollnaming" was declared, by moderation, to be a puppet troll (and lest anyone get ideas, no, it wasn't me).
I thought it would take at least a FEW days for my point to be proven. I didn't expect two HOURS.
Sometimes, it's good to be right.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Ostroeuropa » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:39 am
United Dependencies wrote:I certainly will miss being able to call poe's law on people.
by Esternial » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:26 pm
All this complaining seems like a waste of time, especially because they're about a waste of time; making it double the waste.Neo Art wrote:Esternial wrote:I honestly don't know what everyone's complaining about.
Really? I'm pretty sure I've made it abundantly clear. That it's simultaniously a nonsensically daft waste of time and energy, while being extraordinarily condescending towards the overall intelligence of nationstates users. This whole thing supposedly came about over concern that "trollnaming" was shutting down legitimate discussion.
I contend, as I have from the onset, that this is remarkably silly, as the only people who would use "you're a troll" as a means to shut down a discussion are the people who were legitimately were trying to find a way to incite in the first place. Which is the definition of trolling. Which means, as I said before, "trollnaming" only hampers discourse when it's true.
And what's even most amusing about that point? Here's the biggest set of warnings for "trollnaming" I can find. How did that thread end?
With moderation forced to admit that the player, was in fact a troll. I hope that point sinks in. We went through all the trouble of warning multiple people for calling someone "troll", only to turn him around and warn him for being a troll.
So that's what this brave new policy has accomplished. That's your shining example on the hill. Warning people for calling a troll a troll.
Funny, I thought truth was a defense.
Oh well, might as well add "blatantly contradictory to long standing policy" to "utterly pointless" "complete waste of time" and "somewhat insulting really" to the list of why this is a patently silly idea.
by Neo Art » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:52 pm
Esternial wrote:All this complaining seems like a waste of time, especially because they're about a waste of time; making it double the waste.
So, why can't we avoid using the word 'troll' when we want to stop a troll from trolling?
by United Dependencies » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:11 pm
Esternial wrote:So, why can't we avoid using the word 'troll' when we want to stop a troll from trolling? Because I feel everyone is making too big of a deal out of this rule.
Alien Space Bats wrote:2012: The Year We Lost Contact (with Reality).
Cannot think of a name wrote:Obamacult wrote:Maybe there is an economically sound and rational reason why there are no longer high paying jobs for qualified accountants, assembly line workers, glass blowers, blacksmiths, tanners, etc.
Maybe dragons took their jobs. Maybe unicorns only hid their jobs because unicorns are dicks. Maybe 'jobs' is only an illusion created by a drug addled infant pachyderm. Fuck dude, if we're in 'maybe' land, don't hold back.
by Esternial » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:32 pm
Neo Art wrote:Moderators, on the other hand, by their own choice DO have other responsibilities on this forum, and I still contend that enforcing this triviality of a policy is a waste of time, time that could better be spent fulfilling the commitments they made. Namely, enforcing rules that are actually useful.
Of course I can do that. I'm capable of a great many things. My point is, and has always been, there's really no good reason that I should have to.
It's a silly rule with a silly justification. And if that's the rule then so be it, that's the rule. They're certainly empowered to make rules, and are under no obligation to make rules that actually make sense.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:40 pm
Esternial wrote:Neo Art wrote:Moderators, on the other hand, by their own choice DO have other responsibilities on this forum, and I still contend that enforcing this triviality of a policy is a waste of time, time that could better be spent fulfilling the commitments they made. Namely, enforcing rules that are actually useful.
And they're entitled to determine what is useful and what isn't, regardless of your personal opinion.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Neo Art » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:59 pm
Esternial wrote:And they're entitled to determine what is useful and what isn't, regardless of your personal opinion.
And your justification for not doing it out of your free will is because you don't want to?
That's a pretty good reason for making a rule; if people don't stop trollnaming out of their own free will, make them.
I'm sure the Mods have enough reason to add this rule at the time they did.
by Esternial » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:08 pm
Neo Art wrote:Esternial wrote:And they're entitled to determine what is useful and what isn't, regardless of your personal opinion.
Of course they are. They're the moderators here, not me. As I said, couldn't get me within 100 feet of the job, especially not for free.
They're the moderators. They're absolutely entitled to make whatever rule they want, I've never, in the slightest bit, even implied otherwise.
THey're entirely entitled to determine what is useful. They're wrong in this case, but it's well within their rights to be wrong.And your justification for not doing it out of your free will is because you don't want to?
My justification for doing everything on this forum is "because I want to".That's a pretty good reason for making a rule; if people don't stop trollnaming out of their own free will, make them.
What a silly idea. I'm sure people wouldn't stop using words with the letter "e" of their own free will either. Mods COULD, if they wanted, ban anyone for using any word containing the letter "e".
Attempting to enforce that rule would, however, result in the death of NSG overnight.
Mods are, of course, perfectly within their rights to compell people to do anything they want to compel them to do. Doesn't mean they shouldI'm sure the Mods have enough reason to add this rule at the time they did.
Yes, they've made it quite clear in this very thread what their reasons are. And I am of the opinion that their reasons are silly.
The fact that they're silly doesn't make it outside their right to do so of course. But the fact that they have the right to do it doesn't make it any less silly.
by The Lone Alliance » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:03 pm
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