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by Blakk Metal » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:40 pm
by NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:54 pm
Neo Art wrote:NERVUN wrote:That's nice. However, since you have other amusements, you shan't miss this one then.
I'm truly baffled at the point you're trying to make here. I'm not even intending to be snarky, I'm utterly unsure how you got from point A to point B.
You were the one who asked for an example of when it was helpful. Not me. I merely pointed out that "helpfulness" is not, was not, and has never been a requirement of ones posts. Nobody on NSG has ever been required to be helpful, and to support a policy because the now banned practice wasn't helpful is to impose a standard that has never once been part of NSG, not in all the years I've been here.
And if it was banned for reasons other than "not being helpful", then I'm really not sure why you're asking for such examples.
by NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:56 pm
Ethel mermania wrote:NERVUN wrote:This has been the standard for years and yet... Moderation still gets reports.
Link please.
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=200011&p=10963596&hilit=ethel#p10963596
i'm not referring to his bitching about me, but the initial post i was responding too, which he helpfully provided. Now any other conversation we have about it as a meta conversation, will violate a few forum rules. Do i have permission to do so?
by NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:00 pm
Neo Art wrote:Esternial wrote:So try and look from another point of view, it might help you get a better grasp on the situation. Posts with little more than "OP is a troll" are a terrible waste of space and only proves how terrible someone is at properly debating. If you think the topic isn't worth replying to, don't reply at all.
You're right in the sense that "You're a troll" is a terrible method of proper debate. And that would be of relevance, if NSG was, even tangentially, a place where something that could even extraordinarily generously be described as "proper debating" actually happened.
But it's not, and it gets further and further from that point every year.
And if the culture of this site was such that actually encouraged, fostered, supported and nurtured intelligent discussion, discourse, and debate, then I'd be behind this rule 100%.
But it isn't, for reasons far more pervasive than "You're a troll!", which makes this rule less "supporting intellectual debate" and more "niggling micromanagement".
Virtually nobody here is engaged in anything remotely close to "serious debate". And I count myself amongst that group. The only difference is, I'm honest about it. The irony being I'm one of very few people on NSG to really attempt an ACTUAL formal debate, back in the day.
It's never been a place for real debate, it's just a place to kill time, with a ruleset that suggest that if we're going to kill time, we can try to at least not be overtly hostile to one another. Expanding that premise into the realm of "thou shalt not say" is just..well..niggling micromanagement seems to fit best.
by Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:06 am
Ethel mermania wrote:The Emerald Dawn wrote:But the Banhammer shall ride forth and smite them mightily. Trust me, mob rule is never a good idea. If the mods feel that someone is trolling, they'll make them flatter than a pancake soon enough. If you can't trust their judgement in the matter, maybe another forum would be better?
i am not always looking to get someone smacked by a mod, moderation should be a last resort, not a first, unless it is completely blatant.
I asked a question in moderation that was called rules lawyering by a mod, so i still don't know if it was acceptable or not.
by Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:51 am
NERVUN wrote:You of course tend to think of it as am amusement. Fine, there are other amusements out there, enjoy. This one is now been taken off the board.
by Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:56 am
NERVUN wrote:We never pretended to be a formal debate board, we have claimed to want to allow people a chance to discuss things though.
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:57 am
Neo Art wrote:NERVUN wrote:You of course tend to think of it as am amusement. Fine, there are other amusements out there, enjoy. This one is now been taken off the board.
"If you don't like it you can leave"? Really?
Please. I thought you were better than that. If it has not been made abudantly clear by now, my only true objection is that this entire rule will accomplish nothing, change nothing, improve nothing, and despite being filled with sound and fury, signify nothing.
In short, it's nothing more than a complete waste of time.
But at the end of the day, it's not my time being wasted. It's yours. And if you value your own time so little that you'll squander it on this pointless exercise have at it. It has no real impact in my day to day in the slightest.
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:06 am
NERVUN wrote:I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 am
Jormengand wrote:NERVUN wrote:I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.
"Don't feed the troll" has previously been condoned by the mods - I'll try to find you a link at some point.
by Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 am
Esternial wrote:
As a final note; It might not affect you, but then again the world doesn't revolve around you alone.
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:08 am
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:10 am
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:12 am
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by The Legion of Kane » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:12 am
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:13 am
Jormengand wrote:Esternial wrote:So sometimes it helps.
So you're saying that if something results in a negative outcome only in 9/10 times we should allow it? The analogy with medicine comes to mind, albeit a bit too powerful.
If you knew when medicine was going to be useful and when it wasn't, you would use it when it would be, would you not?
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:17 am
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:26 am
Jormengand wrote:Esternial wrote:Yes, so you know when posting "Don't feed the troll" will be effective?
I'm going to be frank: That's bullshit.
Going "TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!" is ineffective. Going "Given that [reasons why this guy is clearly trolling], they are likely a troll. Feed thou not the troll" is almost certainly going to be more effective.
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:30 am
Esternial wrote:Jormengand wrote:Going "TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!" is ineffective. Going "Given that [reasons why this guy is clearly trolling], they are likely a troll. Feed thou not the troll" is almost certainly going to be more effective.
Yeah, and then the troll starts arguing about how he's not a troll and the entire threads goes off-topic regardless; lovely.
Reporting to Moderation is the easier method. Troll gets reprimanded and served his well-deserved meal.
Plus you can't predict whether someone won't just go go "TROLL!". I doubt the mods are going to count on everyone's good nature.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Woodstead » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:30 am
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:41 am
Jormengand wrote:Esternial wrote:Yeah, and then the troll starts arguing about how he's not a troll and the entire threads goes off-topic regardless; lovely.
Reporting to Moderation is the easier method. Troll gets reprimanded and served his well-deserved meal.
Plus you can't predict whether someone won't just go go "TROLL!". I doubt the mods are going to count on everyone's good nature.
The thread going off topic is better than people being trolled.
The mods are not always online.
The mods can judge on a case-by-case, rather than making a blanket rule.#
Anything else?
by Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:43 am
Esternial wrote:Jormengand wrote:The thread going off topic is better than people being trolled.
The mods are not always online.
The mods can judge on a case-by-case, rather than making a blanket rule.#
Anything else?
Yeah, your point? As I said: Report to moderation instead of posting yourself and ignore the troll.
No, the mods might not always be online, but regardless you should report the troll in Moderation. Mods already go through each case, and searching threads in general for trolls because someone can't be arsed to simply report it in Moderation is a drain of time that could be spent on other things.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.
by Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:48 am
Jormengand wrote:Esternial wrote:Yeah, your point? As I said: Report to moderation instead of posting yourself and ignore the troll.
No, the mods might not always be online, but regardless you should report the troll in Moderation. Mods already go through each case, and searching threads in general for trolls because someone can't be arsed to simply report it in Moderation is a drain of time that could be spent on other things.
Read my first point. They can, of course, report the troll in Mod'n as well, but "don't feed the troll" responses can, surprise surprise, prevent the troll from being fed.
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