[PASSED] Commend Topid

[Sedgistan]

The Security Council,

RECOGNIZING Topid, along with the accompanying puppet states, as a pioneer of the Security Council;

UNDERSTANDING that Topid was the founder of The Security Council, a region where the initial writers of Security Council resolutions got together to brainstorm and draft;

REALIZING that Topid led the Security Council back to life after the Third Wall Bloc faded in 2010 with the passing of Condemn Unknown;

APPLAUDING the work Topid has put into the recognition of other nations, such as Todd McCloud for many contributions across various fields in NationStates, Fudgetopia for incredible service to The South Pacific, and Naivetry for a multitude of accomplishments;

AWARE that Topid authored the Security Council resolution Condemn Unknown, the first Security Council resolution to discuss forum destruction and setting the bar for it as a condemnable activity;

COGNIZANT that Topid authored the Security Council resolution Liberate Eastern Europe, which attempted to prevent the destruction of Eastern Europe by Czech Mate;

NOTING Topid's contributions to the General Assembly, which include the bolstering of protections for consulates across the world and the implementation of the World Assembly Disaster Bureau so as to equip the world to handle a natural disaster;

BELIEVING that the work of such a prolific World Assembly author is numerous and worthy of a commendation;

HEREBY, The Security Council, with all the powers, rights, and responsibilities vested in it, Commends Topid.

[Eist]

You UDL sure know how to pat each other's backs.

From what I recall, and tell me if I am wrong, Topid founded the region Trojans with a puppet nation of the same name. He then in the recent past "ceased to exist", and Trojans was unsurprisingly and ignominiously raided by none other than Bacon Strips. Topid (as a member of UDL) was asked to bring back the founder nation, but stunningly declined. UDL then bizarrely liberated the region anyway with Spanish America as lead (perhaps even with Topid in tow; this detail is a bit iffy -- someone can surely clear this up).

Topid is a lazy WA resolution writer, and is a terrible "defender". Someone more in the loop may care to comment on his effectiveness as delegate in TSP as Daynor. My understanding is that it was less than memorable. Anyway, I'm sure Topid will "quit NS" -- for the umpteenth time -- sometime next week, negating any need for this UDL back-pat badge.

I do not support this.

[Paper Flowers]

Given the way Topids proposals have been going recently and his comments around them it seems interesting timing to try and push for a commendation. (For reference I refer to these two in particular.)

As such I would be against this commendation at this time.

[Drop Your Pants]

I've recently seen Topid's bad side in Balder and it was shocking. He went from nice guy to targeting a member in the blink of an eye. So i'm also against.

At least you left out the UDL parts

[Mahaj]

Given the way Topids proposals have been going recently and his comments around them it seems interesting timing to try and push for a commendation. (For reference I refer to these two in particular.)

As such I would be against this commendation at this time.

He has still passed many resolutions of high quality.

also Eist: with Trojans, Topid was simply inactive and couldn't be contacted. Inactivity is not a crime.

I'm also not commending him for being a defender... so I do not see how it is relevant.

[Paper Flowers]

He has still passed many resolutions of high quality.

This is true, however two points:

1. Are these most recent resolutions a sign of what we can expect in the future? If so do we really wish to commend him based purely on previous achievements when his current actions may not warrant it? We repeal commendations/condemnations when a persons actions no longer justify them after all.

2. To quote Fris:

I can't speak for anyone else in the game, but the author has, in my mind, forfeited any respect due from his prior contributions with this one.

If one agrees with the above, then Topids previous resolutions are largely irrelevant at this stage.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I've always liked Topid, and was in close contact with him when he was Delegate in TSP. I've sort of fallen of the wagon with him as of late, but he is still quite the player in my mind. I don't think the two most recent proposals that have been put to vote by Topid/Daynor/Weed/TannerFrankLand are an accurate nor fair summary of his contributions to the SC and WA in general, nor should two "bad" proposals be the only thing people focus on here. I'm also on board with Mahaj on this one-Topid's defending merits aren't even mentioned in the proposal, so it's not relevant to the discussion here. I think that's called a straw man in logic, Eist, and it only makes you look foolish for attempting to divert the proposal to an argument that isn't even being presented.

I support this proposal.

[The Great Destruction]

I think that's called a straw man in logic

Its only a straw man when an arguer beats up on a personage that is not there or cannot speak to defend him/her self and pre-supposes a position or stance that the personage has not or does not stand for.

Whether or not he is a defender could still be relevant but I dont see many nations changing their mind either way based on those deeds.

For myself, the little contact I have had with Torpid, doesn't seem exemplary to me, but i understand there are several deeds that have occured earlier in torpids career. I am on the fence

[Paffnia]

Speaking solely for myself here, I recall that Topid/Daynor authored the failed proposal "Condemn Grub" (debate threads here and here). Without even going into the whole mess behind that proposal, it was, until recently, the least successful SC proposal ever, if NSWiki's timeline is any guide. Plus, clauses #2-5 of this proposal all contain some sort of caveat or apology for a past mistake. Don't get me wrong, I know people make mistakes and then mend them, but I do not support a commendation with a history like this.

[Eist]

also Eist: with Trojans, Topid was simply inactive and couldn't be contacted. Inactivity is not a crime.

*narrows eyes*... This is not how I remember it. I concede (as I have no evidence), unless someone can back me up.

I'm also not commending him for being a defender... so I do not see how it is relevant.

I think that's called a straw man in logic, Eist, and it only makes you look foolish for attempting to divert the proposal to an argument that isn't even being presented.

Bullshit. He's a lazy defender, and he should be judged on his totality as a nation in NS. He doesn't get a commendation that is only relevant in his WA work; he can carry that around as he poorly detags regions as well. It's not my fault that Mahaj "neglected" to mention anything about him being a defender, let alone an important member of UDL as well.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Bullshit. He's a lazy defender, and he should be judged on his totality as a nation in NS. He doesn't get a commendation that is only relevant in his WA work; he can carry that around as he poorly detags regions as well. It's not my fault that Mahaj "neglected" to mention anything about him being a defender, let alone an important member of UDL as well.

Incorrect. Plenty of condemnations and commendations focus on one or two very small details of a nation. It's not standing precedent to commend a nation for their acts as whole. If one particular thing about said nation (in this case, the WA involvement) is stellar, that is worthy of a commendation. Topid is a prime example of that, along with many others in SC history that have been commended for just a "minor" part of the game (see Tiago Silva, Glen-Rhodes, and, more recently, The Featured Region Followers).

[Eist]

Tiago Silva shouldn't have been commended, IMO. That said, I am stunned you would think that is an exemplary proposal. Also, I don't think that Tiago Silva actually does anything else in the game. Furthermore, and correct me if I am wrong, but G-R wasn't even involved in Gameplay when he was commended. All he did was write resolutions. Again, and this is an even more pertinent example, I can't remember TFRF cruising around helping UDL. Literally their members' sole purpose is to follow featured regions. There is nothing on how amazing they are at defending, because, and get this straight, they do not do defending.

I hope this makes sense.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the UDL or defending. It's not part of the argument.

My point was that nations have been commended before for a particular part of the game, not "their nation as a whole," hence the example resolutions given. It's happened before, and been passed before. If Topid (in my mind, he has) done a great job in the WA, that alone is commendable. He doesn't have to be perfect at everything to deserve a commendation.

[The Great Destruction]

Plenty of condemnations and commendations focus on one or two very small details of a nation. It's not standing precedent to commend a nation for their acts as whole.

This is true, I have been guilty of this as well. Sometimes its hard to seperate the commendable actions from my views of the nations as a whole. Which leads to why a nations can be condemned/commended multiple times or even have both. Perhaps, as I develope another proposal, I will empasize this thought more prominently to help further the goal.

[Eist]

I bring up the UDL because Topid is, and G-R is or was a member. Your choice of Tiago Silva and TFRF as examples was perplexing to say the least.

That said, there seem to be no guidelines in the forum on this matter. Therefore, I believe, and will cast my vote accordingly, on players that are the most exemplary in this game as a whole. These are nations that have shown all round ability and greatness. Ballotonia, AMOM, Ananke, Goobergunchia, others. These are nations that have had a long-lasting effect on the game, most in a variety of roles. Ananke, for example, is an amazing defender, and carried this over to her delegate duties. I wouldn't think a proposal was good if it only discussed her role as delegate, and neglected her amazing career as a defender. Anyway, to me, Topid does not fit at all into this elite group -- in part because he chooses to not be a good defender.

Topid has had a rich and varied time in NationStates. To me, Mahaj only selecting a small splice of this in an attempt to commend him, reveals the inadequacies in this resolution.

I'm not too invested in this whole thing. I believe that there is little chance that this is going to pass even without me taking a stand against it.

[Mahaj]

Tiago Silva shouldn't have been commended, IMO. That said, I am stunned you would think that is an exemplary proposal. Also, I don't think that Tiago Silva actually does anything else in the game. Furthermore, and correct me if I am wrong, but G-R wasn't even involved in Gameplay when he was commended. All he did was write resolutions. Again, and this is an even more pertinent example, I can't remember TFRF cruising around helping UDL. Literally their members' sole purpose is to follow featured regions. There is nothing on how amazing they are at defending, because, and get this straight, they do not do defending.

I hope this makes sense.

G-R was involved in gameplay when he was commended, he was a part of the UDL. The original commendation attempt at G-R actually did mention the UDL and... there were controversies of it 'not being relevant'... even you said it wasn't relevant. Also Topid hasn't done a mission in a while.

also when SkyDip and I are agreeing on something... o.0

[Eist]

G-R was involved in gameplay when he was commended, he was a part of the UDL. The original commendation attempt at G-R actually did mention the UDL and... there were controversies of it 'not being relevant'... even you said it wasn't relevant. Also Topid hasn't done a mission in a while.

also when SkyDip and I are agreeing on something... o.0

I can only find two instances of me commenting on the commendation of G-R:

on the NS forum:

"This re-submission is now looking great, AMOM. You're an excellent writer, too. You should write my thesis

and on the XKI forum:

FOR, thanks Enig for putting this up. Everyone, please vote in the WA voting thread !"

Am I not wrong?

Unibot himself asked for that part to be dropped:

viewtopic.php?p=7132738#p7132738

because Connopolis was (at the time) another UDL chest-thumper, and stated, in the proposal itself, something like "G-R is an important member of UDL, the greatest defender region of all time". People called this obvious bullshit, and this was why it was dropped. Furthermore, at the time, G-R was a very much established WA resolution author, who was well known as an excellent writer, but also someone that was willing to mentor newer writers. I realise that his record is not as rosy as this, and I was hesitant to support it at the time, but I don't see any of this in Topid.

The differences between G-R and Topid are stark. Topid is much less involved in WA stuff than G-R was when he was commended, and Topid's activities outside of WA writing are dodgy at best. This was never the case with G-R.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

also when SkyDip and I are agreeing on something... o.0

We should pass this for that reason alone.

[Christian Democrats]

Against for a number of reasons.

[Ambroscus Koth]

AWARE that Topid authored the Security Council resolution Condemn Unknown, the first Security Council resolution to discuss forum destruction and setting the bar for it as a condemnable activity (though the resolution was later repealed after an official apology);

Jeez, are we really recognizing that shitfest in a commendation?

[Mahaj]

AWARE that Topid authored the Security Council resolution Condemn Unknown, the first Security Council resolution to discuss forum destruction and setting the bar for it as a condemnable activity (though the resolution was later repealed after an official apology);

Jeez, are we really recognizing that shitfest in a commendation?

Maybe you support forum destruction, but I sure don't.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Jeez, are we really recognizing that shitfest in a commendation?

Maybe you support forum destruction, but I sure don't.

Because that's exactly what I said, right Mahaj?

[Unibot II]

Against for a number of reasons.

All of which you have neglected to say.

[Unibot II]

You UDL sure know how to pat each other's backs.

From what I recall, and tell me if I am wrong, Topid founded the region Trojans with a puppet nation of the same name. He then in the recent past "ceased to exist", and Trojans was unsurprisingly and ignominiously raided by none other than Bacon Strips. Topid (as a member of UDL) was asked to bring back the founder nation, but stunningly declined. UDL then bizarrely liberated the region anyway with Spanish America as lead (perhaps even with Topid in tow; this detail is a bit iffy -- someone can surely clear this up).

Topid is a lazy WA resolution writer, and is a terrible "defender". Someone more in the loop may care to comment on his effectiveness as delegate in TSP as Daynor. My understanding is that it was less than memorable. Anyway, I'm sure Topid will "quit NS" -- for the umpteenth time -- sometime next week, negating any need for this UDL back-pat badge.

I do not support this.

I don't think this has anything to do with backpatting between UDLers, Topid only recently joined us again -- after leaving in protest of defender disunity. Which only further emphasizes that this is a free-thinking individual who maybe you'd do better to listen to, instead of just calling him a terrible "defender". Frankly I've lost patience trying to mend any such relations, but Topid never has and that's something I've always quietly admired about him.

Back in the days of the FRA, Topid called himself a lone defender, not joining any organization because I think he liked the genuineness of the idea of just being a defender, helping out regions without the need for politics. An inspiring sense of character, for myself. It should come to no one's surprise he's been such an advocate for defender unity when he was always such a objective-focused defender -- ultimately, all of our interregional squabbles and posturing gets in the way of the protection of native communities.

As a WASC Author, Topid was a pioneer along with Sedge, AMOM and I; he was the first person I know who really embraced the Security Council fully.. it wasn't a side-project to him in the game and he was the one who founded the Security Council region, which started the old SC Community forums where the brainstorming of the future of the SC took place between it's core members. He made mistakes as an author, "Condemn Grub" being one (mostly just fueled by raider propaganda he didn't understand as a newer player -- I mean, Grub hasn't exactly made "Empire of Power", PR friendly) and "Condemn Nazi Europe" being another (right objective, wrong way to do it). I believe the joke among the SC authors was that Topid's career is one of the few that actually went full circle -- he worked hard to get his resolutions passed and harder to get them repealed.

As for his history in TSP -- Topid did more work when he was not a delegate, then when he was delegate. This goes for Bel too. Both had personal issues during their delegacies. Nonetheless, Topid's crowning achievement was not his term as delegacy, but the work he did to help TSP recover from Sedge's coup and later, withstand a coup from Haxstree. Much of this recovery meant dealing with the diplomatic residues of the Dev Coup and resolving legal reform -- TSP boomed under his sort of, shall we say, direction.

He's a well known figure for a reason -- he's contributed a lot, but in more subtle ways than some of the bigger names in NationStates. I'm in support of a commendation.

[Mahaj]

I've made changes to the draft.