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Things that are democracies

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Things that are democracies

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:56 pm

And things that aren't.

So as not to derail the thread about an anti-gay group doing stuff I'm posting this thread. The tangent so far...
Ifreann wrote:
Condunum wrote:The good thing is, this isn't a democracy.

The US is indeed a democracy.

Seperates wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The US is indeed a democracy.

No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.

Des-Bal wrote:
Seperates wrote:No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.


A republic is a democratic form of government.

Seperates wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
A republic is a democratic form of government.

Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.

Des-Bal wrote:
Seperates wrote:Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.


Not in the technical sense but when you won't let someone call a democratic form of government a democracy in common english you're being pedantic.

Ifreann wrote:
Seperates wrote:No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.

Being a republic doesn't mean it's not a democracy. Being a republic basically means that the head of state isn't a king or queen.


Seperates wrote:Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.

A country under a democratic government is a democracy.

Seperates wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Not in the technical sense but when you won't let someone call a democratic form of government a democracy in common english you're being pedantic.

Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.

Ifreann wrote:
Seperates wrote:Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.

Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

Seperates wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.


Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.

Congratulations, you are now caught up. We new thread now!


Seperates wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.


Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.

The term "representative democracy" would like to speak with you.
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Siaos
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Postby Siaos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:57 pm

Some people don't seem to understand that democratic representative Republics exist, and are democracies. The only real requirement for a democracy is that a certain group of citizens vote on laws/representatives which vote on laws. This group can be as small as land-owning white males inside a small town in North Dakota or as large as everyone on Earth, but they are all democracies.
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:58 pm

I'm eagerly anticipating the semantic arguments and no-true-Scotsman fallacies that will surely grace this thread.
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:59 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:I'm eagerly anticipating the semantic arguments and no-true-Scotsman fallacies that will surely grace this thread.

Well, what more can you expect from a labeling debate?
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Condunum wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:I'm eagerly anticipating the semantic arguments and no-true-Scotsman fallacies that will surely grace this thread.

Well, what more can you expect from a labeling debate?

I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Condunum wrote:Well, what more can you expect from a labeling debate?

I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Speaking of football, Sunday needs to come faster.
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Siaos
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Postby Siaos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Condunum wrote:Well, what more can you expect from a labeling debate?

I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Well, technically that can be statement can be applied to anything.
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Zottistan wrote:Like voltage, the only practical way to measure freedom is relatively speaking.
Absolute freedom would be a terrible, terrible thing.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Siaos wrote:Some people don't seem to understand that democratic representative Republics exist, and are democracies. The only real requirement for a democracy is that a certain group of citizens vote on laws/representatives which vote on laws. This group can be as small as land-owning white males inside a small town in North Dakota or as large as everyone on Earth, but they are all democracies.

I would consider a representative Democracy to have forbid gerrymandering and ideally having a representation by proportional voting. The likes of the US and Russia are republics at best.
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Siaos wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Well, technically that can be statement can be applied to anything.

No statement more true.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:09 pm

Vitaphone Racing wrote:
Condunum wrote:Well, what more can you expect from a labeling debate?

I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Image
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Postby Siaos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:10 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Siaos wrote:Some people don't seem to understand that democratic representative Republics exist, and are democracies. The only real requirement for a democracy is that a certain group of citizens vote on laws/representatives which vote on laws. This group can be as small as land-owning white males inside a small town in North Dakota or as large as everyone on Earth, but they are all democracies.

I would consider a representative Democracy to have forbid gerrymandering and ideally having a representation by proportional voting. The likes of the US and Russia are republics at best.

Its a democratic Republic in every meaning of the word. Its a somewhat corrupt, dysfunctional democracy, yes, but its still a democracy. Just because the system of democracy is crappy, it doesn't exclude them from being a democracy.
Last edited by Siaos on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Absolute freedom would be a terrible, terrible thing.
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Postby Forster Keys » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:10 pm

Just coz it's a democracy doesn't mean it's good.
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:11 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Image

I would be angry at you, but wow, it's actually tits and football.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:13 pm

Siaos wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:I would consider a representative Democracy to have forbid gerrymandering and ideally having a representation by proportional voting. The likes of the US and Russia are republics at best.

Its a democratic Republic in almost every meaning of the word. Its a somewhat corrupt, dysfunctional democracy, yes, but its still a democracy. Just because the system of democracy is crappy, it doesn't exclude them from being a democracy.

Is a gerrymander created by politicians to create favorable conditions for their own party truly a democratic creature to you?
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:16 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Vitaphone Racing wrote:I don't know, but tits and football would be a nice touch.

Image

Who cares about the tits? Look at those wonderful muscular legs. No, I'm not being ironic.
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Siaos
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Postby Siaos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:16 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Siaos wrote:Its a democratic Republic in almost every meaning of the word. Its a somewhat corrupt, dysfunctional democracy, yes, but its still a democracy. Just because the system of democracy is crappy, it doesn't exclude them from being a democracy.

Is a gerrymander created by politicians to create favorable conditions for their own party truly a democratic creature to you?

We aren't a gerrymander creature. Gerrymandering creates ridiculous electoral consequences, but it can't do everything. If one party has a solid majority in a state (Which many states do have) they are probably going to win the majority, gerrymandering or not. Besides, we still vote, and our vote has power, so we are technically a democracy.
Last edited by Siaos on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Absolute freedom would be a terrible, terrible thing.
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Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Forster Keys wrote:Just coz it's a democracy doesn't mean it's good.

Can you, like, extrapolate?

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Siaos wrote:Its a democratic Republic in almost every meaning of the word. Its a somewhat corrupt, dysfunctional democracy, yes, but its still a democracy. Just because the system of democracy is crappy, it doesn't exclude them from being a democracy.

Is a gerrymander created by politicians to create favorable conditions for their own party truly a democratic creature to you?

How is it not? The people in power get there by winning an election. That the competition wasn't fair doesn't mean it wasn't democratic. Those words aren't synonyms.
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Postby Beta Test » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:22 pm

The United States uses a democratic system but is not a true democracy.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Siaos wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:Is a gerrymander created by politicians to create favorable conditions for their own party truly a democratic creature to you?

We aren't a gerrymander creature. Gerrymandering creates ridiculous electoral consequences, but it can't do everything. If one party has a solid majority in a state (Which many states do have) they are probably going to win the majority, gerrymandering or not. Besides, we still vote, and our vote has power, so we are technically a democracy.

I consider the ability for politicians to alter the district map in a closed room as anti-democratic in nature. If it was a non-partisan committee I would have no qualms about it, but the gerrymandered district in the state level of 2000 alters the Congressional map for 2020 assuming the state has no term limits in the state house and senate.
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Why are so many people calling direct democracy "real democracy"? Representative democracy is quite real.
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Postby Seperates » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Ifreann wrote:And things that aren't.

So as not to derail the thread about an anti-gay group doing stuff I'm posting this thread. The tangent so far...
Ifreann wrote:The US is indeed a democracy.

Seperates wrote:No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.

Des-Bal wrote:
A republic is a democratic form of government.

Seperates wrote:Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.

Des-Bal wrote:
Not in the technical sense but when you won't let someone call a democratic form of government a democracy in common english you're being pedantic.

Ifreann wrote:Being a republic doesn't mean it's not a democracy. Being a republic basically means that the head of state isn't a king or queen.



A country under a democratic government is a democracy.

Seperates wrote:Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.

Ifreann wrote:You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.


Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

Seperates wrote:That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.

Congratulations, you are now caught up. We new thread now!


Seperates wrote:That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.

The term "representative democracy" would like to speak with you.

Oh goody. And here I was trying to drop it.

"Representative democracy" is an attempt for the Western world to connect itself to a principle of Grecian democracy that has not, nor likely ever will exist within it. Because, here's the thing. In an actual 'representative democracy', as the order of English implies it, there is someone going to the democratic meeting, who represents the opinions of the people. He or she brings to votes of the people to the government and then votes for them, making it into a democracy. Now, for this to be actually democratic, in my opinion, all voices would be heard within that district, the representative would just be in charge of actually presenting the results to the government.

In a "Democratic Republic", officials are elected for their office in a democratic manner, hearing all voting voices. However, that official then essentially becomes a delegate, not actually bringing the views of all the people, simply the ones whom are his/her constituents to the government. They represent SOME people (republic), but they do not represent ALL the people (democracy). The U.S has always been a Democratic Republic, never a "representative democracy".

Keep in mind, this terminology was created in an age before telephones. You literally needed someone to go to the government building for you, because communication was slow and travel slower. So, yes, the terminology does matter historically, and the attempts to change it are signs of modernity attempting to change our connection to the past. Which is unfortunate... but unsurprising.
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Siaos
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Postby Siaos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:25 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Siaos wrote:We aren't a gerrymander creature. Gerrymandering creates ridiculous electoral consequences, but it can't do everything. If one party has a solid majority in a state (Which many states do have) they are probably going to win the majority, gerrymandering or not. Besides, we still vote, and our vote has power, so we are technically a democracy.

I consider the ability for politicians to alter the district map in a closed room as anti-democratic in nature. If it was a non-partisan committee I would have no qualms about it, but the gerrymandered district in the state level of 2000 alters the Congressional map for 2020 assuming the state has no term limits in the state house and senate.

But it doesn't matter, no matter how corrupt it is, you have the power the help put a person in power, so it is a democracy. A badly done democracy, but a democracy none the less.
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Zottistan wrote:Like voltage, the only practical way to measure freedom is relatively speaking.
Absolute freedom would be a terrible, terrible thing.
Join the UU, A Region of RP nations centered around the very strong Unitaria. To join, all you have to do is change your nations currency to the Unitaria, and TG Flaskjinia, Pasovo-Nacabo, or me.

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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:25 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Siaos wrote:We aren't a gerrymander creature. Gerrymandering creates ridiculous electoral consequences, but it can't do everything. If one party has a solid majority in a state (Which many states do have) they are probably going to win the majority, gerrymandering or not. Besides, we still vote, and our vote has power, so we are technically a democracy.

I consider the ability for politicians to alter the district map in a closed room as anti-democratic in nature. If it was a non-partisan committee I would have no qualms about it, but the gerrymandered district in the state level of 2000 alters the Congressional map for 2020 assuming the state has no term limits in the state house and senate.

We do need to control gerrymandering and adopt a more representative system.
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 pm

The Truth and Light wrote:
Forster Keys wrote:Just coz it's a democracy doesn't mean it's good.

Can you, like, extrapolate?


The Athenians, for instance, believed that women were pretty much subhuman, that slavery was perfectly alright and that poor people shouldn't have the right to vote.

And yet they were, by most estimates, a democratic society, and one that intensely valued that trait.

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