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Bulletproof Resolutions

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.
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Quadnairia
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Founded: Jul 17, 2010
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Bulletproof Resolutions

Postby Quadnairia » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:00 pm

<personal opinion rant>

I’ve noticed that, lately, there have been two resolutions that have been passed by fairly substantial margins only to be repealed within a few weeks. Granted, the overturned resolutions weren’t perfect, but, given that they were written by those who probably don’t have any legal training and little to no diplomatic experience to be voted on by several thousand people each with their own ideas about how things should be done, they were pretty good.

So, what’s going on?

I can think of two reasons why this is happening. The first, which has been discussed and lampshaded in Resolution #122, “Read the Resolution Act,” is that people aren’t reading the resolutions when they come to vote and vote based on the title alone. When the repeal comes up, they assume that the original resolution, which they didn’t read in the first place, wasn’t very good and vote for the repeal.

The second possibility is a little less cynical. People might not feel that strongly about the original resolution but voted for it because it seemed like it was the best that could be presented at that time. When the repeal comes, they decide to vote for it hoping that someone can do better.

A repeal is essentially a second vote on a resolution, so it’s very confusing when the resolution gets passed by a good margin then gets repealed soon after also by a good margin. Voting multiple times on something that was passed the first time is a waste of time for all WA members. If this is happening because of reason one, then there isn’t much that can be done currently (maybe the NS folks could come up with a way to prevent people from voting if it’s obvious that they didn’t read the resolution, but I don’t know how that could be done, and I’m not going to make any suggestions for that). If this is happening because of reason two, the best solution is to vote against the resolution. If you have reservations that cause you to vote against a resolution the second time, you probably shouldn’t have voted for it the first time.

While we would all like bulletproof resolutions, pieces of legislation that can survive repeal attempts, loophole seeking rules lawyers, and anything else that the writers can think of to stop, it probably isn’t going to happen. The best thing to do until we can put Kevlar on the legislation is to vote for legislation that is good and vote against anything that causes you to go, “I don’t know about that,” even if it seems like the best thing that can be written at this time.

I'd like to know what my fellow WA members think about this.

</personal opinion rant>

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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:26 pm

MMA and USTA were "pretty good"? MMA had a glaring flaw in that nations could easily evade its provisions, and the resolution should have focused on missing persons. USTA was terrible. Both were repealed because they had major issues. The system is working, in that the WA is open to reconsidering its position when a new argument is brought to its attention.

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Linux and the X
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Postby Linux and the X » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:51 pm

Resolutions are ideas, and idea are bulletproof. :P

Really, the instarepeal is not something new. Historically, it has been well-used. The trouble is the huge number of semi-active members (some of whom are delegates of large regions) that do not pay attention to the debate thread. They see a great-looking argument in the proposal, so they vote for it without hearing the other side. Then they see the repeal, which of course also has a great argument. They forget how great the resolution's argument was and vote for the repeal.

Another part of the problem is that everything is getting an instarepeal attempt, and due to the low number of approvals needed such attempts easily reach the floor.
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.
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Mousebumples
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Postby Mousebumples » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:37 pm

Linux and the X wrote:Another part of the problem is that everything is getting an instarepeal attempt, and due to the low number of approvals needed such attempts easily reach the floor.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a "low number of approvals" (although I will definitely concede that less approvals are needed than were required when I passed my first historical resolution) ... I think it's more that GA regulars know the tricks of the trade (so to speak) when it comes to getting a proposal to quorum.

I've supported both of the most recent Insta-Repeals, so I have no problems with the process as it's currently working.
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Quadnairia
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Founded: Jul 17, 2010
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Postby Quadnairia » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:21 pm

Krioval wrote:The system is working, in that the WA is open to reconsidering its position when a new argument is brought to its attention.


I have no problem with instarepeals. People have the right to voice their opinions about resolutions. If they think a resolution is bad, then, by all means, they should offer up a repeal. My issue comes when a resolution passes by 3,000 votes then gets repealed by nearly the same margin. It makes me wonder if people are paying attention what they're voting on.

Linux and the X wrote:Really, the instarepeal is not something new. Historically, it has been well-used. The trouble is the huge number of semi-active members (some of whom are delegates of large regions) that do not pay attention to the debate thread. They see a great-looking argument in the proposal, so they vote for it without hearing the other side. Then they see the repeal, which of course also has a great argument. They forget how great the resolution's argument was and vote for the repeal.


I hadn't thought about that. It's sort of a reverse of not reading the resolution. I would hope that WA members would have the memory to remember how they voted on the original resolution, but that might be asking for too much.

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Unibot II
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Postby Unibot II » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:43 pm

While we would all like bulletproof resolutions, pieces of legislation that can survive repeal attempts, loophole seeking rules lawyers, and anything else that the writers can think of to stop, it probably isn’t going to happen.


No, there is certainly a category for bulletproof resolutions --> repeals, you cannot repeal them. ;)
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Linux and the X
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Postby Linux and the X » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:12 pm

Unibot II wrote:
While we would all like bulletproof resolutions, pieces of legislation that can survive repeal attempts, loophole seeking rules lawyers, and anything else that the writers can think of to stop, it probably isn’t going to happen.


No, there is certainly a category for bulletproof resolutions --> repeals, you cannot repeal them. ;)

Unless you can. ;)
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.
BLUE LIVES MURDER

[violet]: Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Me, responding to a request to vote for a liberation: But... but that would blemish my near-perfect history of spitefully voting against anything the SC does!
Farnhamia: That is not to be taken as license to start calling people "buttmunch."

GPG key ID: A8960638 fingerprint: 2239 2687 0B50 2CEC 28F7 D950 CCD0 26FC A896 0638

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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:54 pm

Linux and the X wrote:
Unibot II wrote:
No, there is certainly a category for bulletproof resolutions --> repeals, you cannot repeal them. ;)

Unless you can. ;)


I'm fairly sure that it won't actually submit. Of course, even if it did, I'm guessing it'd be monstrously illegal.

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Linux and the X
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Postby Linux and the X » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:56 pm

Krioval wrote:
Linux and the X wrote:Unless you can. ;)


I'm fairly sure that it won't actually submit. Of course, even if it did, I'm guessing it'd be monstrously hilarious.

Fixed. :P

It's probably about as legal as repealing a bookkeeping resolution.
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.
BLUE LIVES MURDER

[violet]: Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Me, responding to a request to vote for a liberation: But... but that would blemish my near-perfect history of spitefully voting against anything the SC does!
Farnhamia: That is not to be taken as license to start calling people "buttmunch."

GPG key ID: A8960638 fingerprint: 2239 2687 0B50 2CEC 28F7 D950 CCD0 26FC A896 0638

they/them pronouns

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Christian Democrats
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
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Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:58 pm

Linux and the X wrote:
Unibot II wrote:
No, there is certainly a category for bulletproof resolutions --> repeals, you cannot repeal them. ;)

Unless you can. ;)

^ Someone try this.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Linux and the X
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Postby Linux and the X » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:04 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Linux and the X wrote:Unless you can. ;)

^ Someone try this.

You have enough endorsements. You do it.

DISCLAIMER: When you get WA banned forever, it's your own damn fault.
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.
BLUE LIVES MURDER

[violet]: Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Me, responding to a request to vote for a liberation: But... but that would blemish my near-perfect history of spitefully voting against anything the SC does!
Farnhamia: That is not to be taken as license to start calling people "buttmunch."

GPG key ID: A8960638 fingerprint: 2239 2687 0B50 2CEC 28F7 D950 CCD0 26FC A896 0638

they/them pronouns

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Christian Democrats
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:24 pm

Linux and the X wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:^ Someone try this.

You have enough endorsements. You do it.

DISCLAIMER: When you get WA banned forever, it's your own damn fault.

I don't think someone would be banned forever, but I don't want to take the chance of losing this nation.

(Maybe someone can try it, take a screen shot, post it here, and then ask for the proposal's removal.)
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Sedgistan
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Founded: Oct 20, 2006
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:29 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Linux and the X wrote:Unless you can. ;)

^ Someone try this.

Please don't.

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Christian Democrats
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:50 pm

Sedgistan wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:^ Someone try this.

Please don't.

Besides possibly being banned . . . :? . . . what's the worst that could happen?

:unsure: Maybe a moderator could try it?
Last edited by Christian Democrats on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Krioval
Minister
 
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Founded: Jan 24, 2005
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Postby Krioval » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:31 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:Please don't.

Besides possibly being banned . . . :? . . . what's the worst that could happen?

:unsure: Maybe a moderator could try it?


Maybe nobody should try it, considering that a moderator has said "please don't".

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Christian Democrats
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:21 pm

Krioval wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Besides possibly being banned . . . :? . . . what's the worst that could happen?

:unsure: Maybe a moderator could try it?


Maybe nobody should try it, considering that a moderator has said "please don't".

A game moderator could introduce the proposal and then immediately delete it after seeing what happens.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Unibot II
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Founded: Jan 10, 2011
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Postby Unibot II » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:28 pm

Krioval wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Besides possibly being banned . . . :? . . . what's the worst that could happen?

:unsure: Maybe a moderator could try it?


Maybe nobody should try it, considering that a moderator has said "please don't".


Because it would be fun. :p
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General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:01 am

i'm awfully tempted to try it...
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Flibbleites
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Postby Flibbleites » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:23 am

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:i'm awfully tempted to try it...

Don't bother, the submit button won't work.

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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:51 am

Flibbleites wrote:
Mahaj WA Seat wrote:i'm awfully tempted to try it...

Don't bother, the submit button won't work.

so I can't do this?
Member of The South and Osiris
Representing Mahaj in the World Assembly.
The Mahaj Factbook.


Author of Missing Minors Act (Repealed) and In Regards to Cloning
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Fuck bitches, get money.
You shall be my god.

Georgism wrote:Fuck off you cunt, I'm always nice.

NERVUN wrote:Yog zap!

Cool Egg Sandwich wrote:I am the Urinater..... I'll be back.

Jedi Utopians wrote:5) Now, saying that a nation couldn't be part of OPEC would be bold. AIPEC sounds like something you'd want to get checked out by a physician for.


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Flibbleites
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Postby Flibbleites » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:44 am

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
Flibbleites wrote:Don't bother, the submit button won't work.

so I can't do this?

Exactly.

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Mahaj WA Seat
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Founded: Nov 03, 2010
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:47 am

Flibbleites wrote:
Mahaj WA Seat wrote:so I can't do this?

Exactly.

:(
Member of The South and Osiris
Representing Mahaj in the World Assembly.
The Mahaj Factbook.


Author of Missing Minors Act (Repealed) and In Regards to Cloning
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Fuck bitches, get money.
You shall be my god.

Georgism wrote:Fuck off you cunt, I'm always nice.

NERVUN wrote:Yog zap!

Cool Egg Sandwich wrote:I am the Urinater..... I'll be back.

Jedi Utopians wrote:5) Now, saying that a nation couldn't be part of OPEC would be bold. AIPEC sounds like something you'd want to get checked out by a physician for.


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Leepaidamba
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Posts: 3337
Founded: Sep 22, 2010
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Postby Leepaidamba » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:36 am

A repeal is effectively an encouragement to create a better proposal. I do however think that a resolution that is not completely flawed in some sense shouldn't be repealed but instead other resolutions should add to it.
Factbook
Official name: the Grand Duchy of Leepaidamba
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Demonym: Leepaidamban/Amban
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Region: Nederland
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Mahaj WA Seat
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Postby Mahaj WA Seat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:42 am

Leepaidamba wrote:A repeal is effectively an encouragement to create a better proposal. I do however think that a resolution that is not completely flawed in some sense shouldn't be repealed but instead other resolutions should add to it.

As in like an amendment? You do know that amendments are illegal, right?
Member of The South and Osiris
Representing Mahaj in the World Assembly.
The Mahaj Factbook.


Author of Missing Minors Act (Repealed) and In Regards to Cloning
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Fuck bitches, get money.
You shall be my god.

Georgism wrote:Fuck off you cunt, I'm always nice.

NERVUN wrote:Yog zap!

Cool Egg Sandwich wrote:I am the Urinater..... I'll be back.

Jedi Utopians wrote:5) Now, saying that a nation couldn't be part of OPEC would be bold. AIPEC sounds like something you'd want to get checked out by a physician for.


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Leepaidamba
Minister
 
Posts: 3337
Founded: Sep 22, 2010
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Postby Leepaidamba » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:24 pm

Mahaj WA Seat wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:A repeal is effectively an encouragement to create a better proposal. I do however think that a resolution that is not completely flawed in some sense shouldn't be repealed but instead other resolutions should add to it.

As in like an amendment? You do know that amendments are illegal, right?

Not an exact amendment but a complementary resolution.
Factbook
Official name: the Grand Duchy of Leepaidamba
Short name: Amba
AKA: the Grand Duchy
Demonym: Leepaidamban/Amban
HoS: co-Grand Dukes David I and Anna I
HoG: Premier Jaap de Waal
Region: Nederland
Map by PB
FlagsNational animal: Rabit
National motto: "Paene est non." (Almost is not)
National anthem: " 't Lied der Vrijheid" (the Song of Freedom)
CapitalsCurrency: Amban Florin/Aƒ
Languages
Dependencies
No news

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