[DRAFT]Repeal Family and Religion

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Ms. Harper doesn't have a crystal ball, honoured ambassador, but hold on to the draft in case the resolution concerned does pass, as it appears that to stop parents forcing religion on their children we have to use "child abuse" as an excuse.

Also, the stance of the resolution concerned is still unclear on the tackling of unconstitutional cults such as That Cult. Unless I could write a resolution that concerns cults as being distinct from religions.

[Linux and the X]

This is not the "accepted practice" in Quelesh, and I thank you to not make assumptions about cultures that you do not understand.

Unless your nation punishes parents who dare bring their child to church, I would suggest that the 'accepted practice' of 'parents bringing the child until they are old enough to say no' would still hold true in Quelesh. Of course if that is not the case, we sympathize with the many parents who are denied a right to their own child.

You are still missing the point. "Family and Religion" would allow parents to force young citizen to attend church even though they are old enough to say no.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

So what? Isn't the right already implied, anyway? And even if in certain nations it isn't, however do you enforce such a mandate? Are the regimes really so totalitarian as to compel the parent's friends, neighbors and the children themselves to report any suspicious parental behavior, such as taking their children to church? If so, we will have won a tremendous victory against tyranny once the resolution passes. You will have won a victory too. For even though it's highly questionable that the law would apply to such unreasonable anti-Religion-Police States, if children can be dragged to church and still don't want to go, is that not a win for independent thought?

[Eireann Fae]

So what? Isn't the right already implied, anyway? And even if in certain nations it isn't, however do you enforce such a mandate? Are the regimes really so totalitarian as to compel the parent's friends, neighbors and the children themselves to report any suspicious parental behavior, such as taking their children to church? If so, we will have won a tremendous victory against tyranny once the resolution passes. You will have won a victory too. For even though it's highly questionable that the law would apply to such unreasonable anti-Religion-Police States, if children can be dragged to church and still don't want to go, is that not a win for independent thought?

"Children can report spiritual abuse to school counselors, teachers, their own religious leaders, peace officers, etc themselves."

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Excellent. You should be glad that such blatantly totalitarian policies will be uprooted when Family and Religion passes. Your spiritual dissidents certainly will be.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

So what? Isn't the right already implied, anyway? And even if in certain nations it isn't, however do you enforce such a mandate? Are the regimes really so totalitarian as to compel the parent's friends, neighbors and the children themselves to report any suspicious parental behavior, such as taking their children to church? If so, we will have won a tremendous victory against tyranny once the resolution passes. You will have won a victory too. For even though it's highly questionable that the law would apply to such unreasonable anti-Religion-Police States, if children can be dragged to church and still don't want to go, is that not a win for independent thought?

I'm not against the concept of the resolution but the current resolution on Family and Religion is unclear on whether children able to make a decision have the right to follow a faith of their choice. We feel that adding an emphasis clause would have sufficed: such as:

EMPHASISES that these rights shall not be so construed in any way as to deny children, who are able to make a decision, the right to participate in the religious, faith, belief, or philosophical practices different to their guardians.

[Linux and the X]

Excellent. You should be glad that such blatantly totalitarian policies will be uprooted when Family and Religion passes. Your spiritual dissidents certainly will be.

How exactly is this totalitarian? Is it totalitarian to encourage citizens to report a crime against them?

[Krioval]

"Children can report spiritual abuse to school counselors, teachers, their own religious leaders, peace officers, etc themselves."

I'm going to hope that taking one's children to a religious service is not "spiritual abuse"? If it is, I'm wondering when the authoritarian left will finally be satisfied with their "progress".

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

"Children can report spiritual abuse to school counselors, teachers, their own religious leaders, peace officers, etc themselves."

I'm going to hope that taking one's children to a religious service is not "spiritual abuse"? If it is, I'm wondering when the authoritarian left will finally be satisfied with their "progress".

Indeed.

[Unibot]

"Children can report spiritual abuse to school counselors, teachers, their own religious leaders, peace officers, etc themselves."

I'm going to hope that taking one's children to a religious service is not "spiritual abuse"? If it is, I'm wondering when the authoritarian left will finally be satisfied with their "progress".

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

That makes no sense. Authoritarians lead their children to religious services with authority, libertarians go to religious services and hope their children follow them or stay with the babysitter -- that's what we call liberty.

[Grand Europic States]

While it will be a very sad day if the shameful Family and Religion proposal does pass, we stand ready to assist in every way possible with this repeal should it be necessary. The WA should not be placing the rights of adults above those of children, just because they often don't have a voice in politics, it does make them any less deserving of our attention and our protection.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

That makes no sense. Authoritarians lead their children to religious services with authority, libertarians go to religious services and hope their children follow them or stay with the babysitter -- that's what we call liberty.

The leanings of the individual are rather immaterial in this respect, for governments have proven time and again that they will indubitably tend toward the former, primarily those who would so audaciously intrude upon parents' rights to raise their own children. And yet I wonder if atheist families, seeking to instill in their children the belief that God does not exist, are treated with as much scrutiny in nations that compel reports of "spiritual abuse"? ...Nah, of course not! Separate but unequal. That's how unreasonable nations roll.

[Unibot]

That makes no sense. Authoritarians lead their children to religious services with authority, libertarians go to religious services and hope their children follow them or stay with the babysitter -- that's what we call liberty.

The leanings of the individual are rather immaterial in this respect, for governments have proven time and again that they will indubitably tend toward the former, primarily those who would so audaciously intrude upon parents' rights to raise their own children. And yet I wonder if atheist families, seeking to instill in their children the belief that God does not exist, are treated with as much scrutiny in nations that compel reports of "spiritual abuse"? ...Nah, of course not! Separate but unequal. That's how unreasonable nations roll.

Ah, so what you really want is a resolution that protects the right of children to attend a religious service or not attend. Fair enough. But the proposal isn't accomplishing that. Nevertheless, children would need transportation to these services if they aren't nearby, which requires public transportation or *shudder* police escorts.

[Eireann Fae]

And yet I wonder if atheist families, seeking to instill in their children the belief that God does not exist, are treated with as much scrutiny in nations that compel reports of "spiritual abuse"? ...Nah, of course not! Separate but unequal. That's how unreasonable nations roll.

"Actually, if an atheist family is preventing their children from observing their chosen religion, the children in question can complain through the same channels as those being forced into a different religion. We have no idea why you would think otherwise."

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

So all families in Eireann Fae have equal opportunity to taste the sweet, sweet nectar of overbearing totalitarianism? That's wonderful! And we can all mourn with you when the WA finally tells you to keep your grubby nose out of private families' business, for we all know that upholding "children's rights" is always worth a little government repression.

[Krioval]

So all families in Eireann Fae have equal opportunity to taste the sweet, sweet nectar of overbearing totalitarianism? That's wonderful! And we can all mourn with you when the WA finally tells you to keep your grubby nose out of private families' business, for we all know that upholding "children's rights" is always worth a little government repression.

Well, it certainly makes it easier for rebellious teenagers. All they have to do is inform on their parents and then they can be free of their parents' overbearing presence once and for all. If they're really lucky, they'll be tapped to head a government agency as well.

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Krioval]

"rebellious teenagers" Are human beings with equal rights to that of their birth parents, and in many cases equal mental prowess. Let's see your argument with two words changed, and see if you agree:

Well, it certainly makes it easier for rebellious negroes. All they have to do is inform on their masters and then they can be free of their master's overbearing presence once and for all. If they're really lucky, they'll be tapped to head a government agency as well.

Did you just compare parents raising their children to the enslavement of a race of people? At the very least, I could say that some of the enslaved were adults, and therefore should be equal to all other adults. If I were inclined to continue, I would go further to say that children are not slaves, and taking a child to a Kriovaller temple is not the same as whipping and raping them while forcing them to work until near death. But don't let that stop you from making false equivalencies.

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Eireann Fae]

If I were inclined to continue, I would go further to say that children are not slaves, and taking a child to a Kriovaller temple is not the same as whipping and raping them while forcing them to work until near death.

"Not whipping or raping them in a literal, physical, sense, we would hope. Certainly taking a child to temple against their will could be seen as whipping and raping them spiritually, though."

[Unibot]

"rebellious teenagers" Are human beings with equal rights to that of their birth parents, and in many cases equal mental prowess. Let's see your argument with two words changed, and see if you agree:

Well, it certainly makes it easier for rebellious negroes. All they have to do is inform on their masters and then they can be free of their master's overbearing presence once and for all. If they're really lucky, they'll be tapped to head a government agency as well.

Did you just compare parents raising their children to the enslavement of a race of people? At the very least, I could say that some of the enslaved were adults, and therefore should be equal to all other adults. If I were inclined to continue, I would go further to say that children are not slaves, and taking a child to a Kriovaller temple is not the same as whipping and raping them while forcing them to work until near death. But don't let that stop you from making false equivalencies.

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

"Although I'm not sure I fully buy the argument myself -- I'd like to point out that some may consider physical abuse, trivial , compared to mental abuse, and mental abuse, trivial, compared to spiritual abuse. I think people in Unibot would agree to that philosophy, I don't share it 'cause I think drug abuse tromps all of them combined." Eduard said as he swallowed some pills down with a glass of scotch.

[Krioval]

"Not whipping or raping them in a literal, physical, sense, we would hope. Certainly taking a child to temple against their will could be seen as whipping and raping them spiritually, though."

"Whipping and raping them spiritually"? Have you lost your mind? I don't even know where to begin when confronted with a wall of such dense irrationality that I can can practically *touch* it. "Whipping and raping them spiritually".

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Eireann Fae]

"Whipping and raping them spiritually"? Have you lost your mind? I don't even know where to begin when confronted with a wall of such dense irrationality that I can can practically *touch* it. "Whipping and raping them spiritually".

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

"Not everybody is so flippant about the spiritual health of their children. We care a great deal about our children's health on all levels; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, and none of these needs supercedes the other. Spiritual abuse is very real to our culture, whether you care to recognise it or not."

[Flibbleites]

Wow, this has got to be the most tacky thing I've ever seen in my time here in the WA and in its predecessor. Writing a repeal before the proposal is even up for vote.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

[Krioval]

"Not everybody is so flippant about the spiritual health of their children. We care a great deal about our children's health on all levels; physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, and none of these needs supercedes the other. Spiritual abuse is very real to our culture, whether you care to recognise it or not."

I'm a bit curious. How does one "spiritually whip" somebody? What about "spiritual rape"? I mean, I'm aware that people can be messed up with regard to religion, but comparing taking one's children to a religious service to forcibly penetrating another individual sexually against one's will isn't exactly reasonable or rational.

Henrik Søgård
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Eireann Fae]

I'm a bit curious. How does one "spiritually whip" somebody? What about "spiritual rape"? I mean, I'm aware that people can be messed up with regard to religion, but comparing taking one's children to a religious service to forcibly penetrating another individual sexually against one's will isn't exactly reasonable or rational.

"Have you never heard of being mind-fucked? Bah! Why do I even bother..."

Episky asks Rowan to pull out a portable video game, which the two quietly start playing while awaiting rational debate.

[Linux and the X]

I'm a bit curious. How does one "spiritually whip" somebody? What about "spiritual rape"? I mean, I'm aware that people can be messed up with regard to religion, but comparing taking one's children to a religious service to forcibly penetrating another individual sexually against one's will isn't exactly reasonable or rational.

"Have you never heard of being mind-fucked? Bah! Why do I even bother..."

Episky asks Rowan to pull out a portable video game, which the two quietly start playing while awaiting rational debate.

Fred leaves a private note:
You'll be waiting quite awhile; the rational members of this Assembly seem to be agreeing with you.