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[Defeated] Insta-repeal: Legal Equality Act

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[Defeated] Insta-repeal: Legal Equality Act

Postby Simone Republic » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:25 am

Assuming Legal Equality Act passes. This is a very technical argument, see below. The research was done by Kenmoria.

Replacement forthcoming.

Draft 2.

This now focuses more on the core argument below, quoting Kenmoria:

The core argument is that the ‘public interest’ exception is overly broad. This is because an actor in a member-nation could be the one with the ability to determine what is in the public interest.”


Draft 2

The World Assembly,

Noting that many nations across the multi-verse consider their democratically-elected national legislature(s) to be sovereign and their laws to be non-justiciable;

Concerned by clause 2(1) of this resolution, which failed to define what constitutes a "demonstrabl(e)" case of "public interest" or "the public's interest" in enacting "measures such as commutations and pardons, including refraining from prosecuting a case";

Dismayed by the flaws deriving from the lack of such definitions, which may permit politicians to determine themselves the fate of pardons and prosecutions for crimes in the absence of an independent "public interest" test and undermine due process of law;

Anxious at the same time at the compliance powers derived from GAR#440 and perverse incentives resulting thereof, such as this resolution lacking a provision for police discretion in enforcing minor offences, leading to unnecessary arrests and strain on police resources;

Hereby repeals "Legal Equality Act".

Co-author: Kenmoria


Draft 1

Draft 1 included the following paragraph:

Looking forward to potential legislation which clearly defines a public interest test and/or an independent judicial review process in such cases

There are also some.minor wording changes which I did not keep copies of.


The resolution is short but the explanation is very complex. In simple terms, as it applies to the UK or to other common law jurisdictions (excluding the US, but the US has different issues, see below):

- Parliament is sovereign.
- Courts cannot overturn the decision of Parliament.
- Therefore, the current resolution allows Parliament to act in whatever it determines to be "in the public interest".
- In fact, the UK Supreme Court has ruled that "Parliament can, if it chooses, legislate contrary to fundamental principles of human rights.... The constraints upon its exercise by Parliament are ultimately political, not legal."



Arguments against this resolution - as it applies to jurisdictions other than the US

Arguments against this loophole under civil laws are more straight forward - the codified law of the legislature is superior to case law and not all countries allow judicial reviews of legislations.

Arguments against this loophole under common law jurisidictions (particularly England) are more complex, see below.

"Demonstrably"

“Demonstrate”, in common law, means “an entity with the power to determine makes a decision”. That decision can only be overruled on what are termed Wednesbury grounds, from Associated Provincial Picture Houses Ltd v Wednesbury Corporation (1948) 1 KB 223, and even then only if statute does not include an ouster clause.

Plain and literal meanings are only used insofar as there is not a statutory presumption in a different direction. For example, if a plain and literal meaning would render a provision nugatory, then another is typically adopted. Likewise, in the UK, section 3 of the Human Rights Act 1998 means that all legislation must be interpreted, even if it goes against the literal wording of the legislation, in line with the European Court of Human Rights.

R (Simms) v Secretary of State (links to further explanations: Lawprof and Wikipedia, which means that legislation must likewise be interpreted in line with the common law.

In short, the plain and literal meaning is a good starting point in law, but it is far from the end of statutory interpretation. The case of Anisminic provided possibly the best example of this, when a statutory presumption meant that the UKSC interpreted “no decision of the foreign minister shall be questioned in a court of law” to mean “any decision of the foreign minister can be questioned in a court of law”.

In short, to quote from the judgment ([2000] 2 AC 115, 131[3]):

Parliamentary sovereignty means that Parliament can, if it chooses, legislate contrary to fundamental principles of human rights.... The constraints upon its exercise by Parliament are ultimately political, not legal. But the principle of legality means that Parliament must squarely confront what it is doing and accept the political cost.


Common law arguments on the lack of a public interest test in this resolution

With reference to the common law, there are few different facets here. The first one is "non-justiciability". The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom (UKSC) does not have a power of review. It cannot annul Parliamentary legislation, nor even secondary legislation authorised by an explicit statutory framework.

The Courts can, ever since Prohibitions del Roy (1607) 12 Co Rep 77 (see this link for a more easily digestible version on Wikipedia) override the King’s prerogative, including executive powers, such as in AG v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Ltd [1914] UKHL 1, but it has never been able to override Parliament. (The English courts did have some powers from 1607 until the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and Bill of Rights 1689, which meant Parliament reigned supreme over the courts). This is because, again, Parliament is sovereign.

That means that, if Parliament declares that something is in a certain way, the courts cannot question it. It comes from ideas of democracy, at least according to such writers as Dicey and Wade, and the idea of legislative supremacy. However, some, such as myself, would contest that it arises simply from the passage of unlimited power from the Crown to Parliament, in the Glorious Revolution.

The other facet here is the idea of discretionary powers being rendered non-justiciable. Take the case of R (Sandiford) v Secretary of State ([2014] UKSC 44), That case involved someone, Sandiford, being sentenced to death in Indonesia. The Secretary of State had the power to intervene, and indeed had to do so in certain circumstances, based on whether he felt that it would be in the public interest, inter alia.

The UKSC held that the Secretary of State (an elected politician, one of 650-odd) had a discretionary power, so it was non-justiciable. This means that the court could not inquire into the reasoning of the Secretary of State, simply having to accept that he had decided the matter correctly. Obviously, Diceyan orthodox Parliamentary sovereignty cannot apply (see the case of R (Factortame) v Secretary of State (No. 2)), but non-justiciability certainly can.


As it applies to the US

Note that none of the below applies to the United States (except the prosecution powers part), firstly due to Congress not being sovereign. The Supreme Court also has the power to interpret the Constitution. The United States also of course decided to give carte blanche to the President all powers over pardons/commutations etc for federal crimes anyway, and treats it as a political decision (Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the US Constitution) and indeed pardons have generated plenty of controversy politically. The equivalent also applies to state governors.

In effect, the US (at least some states) allow elected prosecutors and elected judges, so it has decided to politicize the entire process. But it does create its own problems (such as politicians firing prosecutors, as Ron DeSantis recently did), but that's somewhat beyond the scope of both the original resolution and this repeal.
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Postby Merni » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:57 am

I don't think there is a need for a repeal. The target says:
2. Where allowed under past or future standing World Assembly law and regardless of Section 1, member nations may

a. enact measures such as commutations and pardons, including refraining from prosecuting a case, where said measures demonstrably protect a public interest which (i) outweighs the public's interest in accountability under the law and (ii) clearly necessitates the enactment of such measures;

b. grant immunity to actions which are conducted in the scope of legislative or judicial activity, such as casting ballots, testifying in court, or adjudicating on a trial, yet excluding criminal prosecution; or

c. allow entities tasked with conducting public functions to engage in otherwise-unlawful acts which are demonstrably necessary for said entities to be able to effectively conduct said functions.


So this so-called "loophole" could be closed with a new proposal, without the need for a repeal.
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:12 am

Merni wrote:I don't think there is a need for a repeal. The target says:
2. Where allowed under past or future standing World Assembly law and regardless of Section 1, member nations may

a. enact measures such as commutations and pardons, including refraining from prosecuting a case, where said measures demonstrably protect a public interest which (i) outweighs the public's interest in accountability under the law and (ii) clearly necessitates the enactment of such measures;

b. grant immunity to actions which are conducted in the scope of legislative or judicial activity, such as casting ballots, testifying in court, or adjudicating on a trial, yet excluding criminal prosecution; or

c. allow entities tasked with conducting public functions to engage in otherwise-unlawful acts which are demonstrably necessary for said entities to be able to effectively conduct said functions.


So this so-called "loophole" could be closed with a new proposal, without the need for a repeal.

(OOC: I disagree with that, for two reasons: one more immediate and one more conceptual. On the immediate front, I don’t believe that ‘where allowed under … future standing World Assembly law’ would include direct disagreement with mandates. It seems to me that the qualification applies more to different points that might have some overlap, such as a future piece of legislation restricting police-immunity where racial hate-crimes are involved, rather than completely altering the meaning of one of the terms.

On a more conceptual basis, that point could be applied to just about any proposal with the qualification ‘where allowed under past or future standing World Assembly law’, which, if taken as true, would make such proposals able to be amended by simply passing more legislation on the same topic. That does not seem in the spirit of the GA, given that amendments are banned. A piece of legislation should not be able to escape critique simply because it could be overridden.)
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Postby Merni » Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:07 am

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: I disagree with that, for two reasons: one more immediate and one more conceptual. On the immediate front, I don’t believe that ‘where allowed under … future standing World Assembly law’ would include direct disagreement with mandates. It seems to me that the qualification applies more to different points that might have some overlap, such as a future piece of legislation restricting police-immunity where racial hate-crimes are involved, rather than completely altering the meaning of one of the terms.

On a more conceptual basis, that point could be applied to just about any proposal with the qualification ‘where allowed under past or future standing World Assembly law’, which, if taken as true, would make such proposals able to be amended by simply passing more legislation on the same topic. That does not seem in the spirit of the GA, given that amendments are banned. A piece of legislation should not be able to escape critique simply because it could be overridden.)


Both these points seem to be addressed by this GenSec decision:
Regarding the Amendment claims, we simply don't agree with the suggested interpretation of the Amendment rule. The author intended not to amend, but to further tighten the legal ratchet built by NAPA. On Abortion left the opportunity for the WA to further open, but not restrict, access to abortions. Reproductive Freedoms used that ratchet option to open it up. It really just built off the existing legal landscape, which makes for a precarious law, but not an illegal one. So, too, did the author intend to ratchet up the restriction against "wrong hands".

There is a reason that Amendment violations are separate from Contradiction violations. An amendment contradicts the existing terms, but breaks the game specifically because previous legislation can't be modified. If it wasn't for this underlying difference, Amendment violations could otherwise fall under Contradiction violations. So there must be something substantively different between the two, and we believe it is that Amendment violations actively attempt to somehow alter the text of the extant legislation.

This doesn't try to modify the original text of NAPA, merely tighten the ratchet for how nations view those parties that can't own nuclear weapons. Since it falls in the penumbra of allowed Duplication, and since it isn't trying to change the text of NAPA, we find that it is legal.


The target here imposes restrictions on arbitrary application of laws by member-states, but leaves some exceptions, explicitly subject to future legislation. I think this necessarily includes the potential for tightening the restrictions on the exception in future ("tightening the ratchet"). The situation is similar to that with "Preventing the Execution of Innocents" (GA 443), whose existence did not prevent the passage of fuller bans of the death penalty in GA 535 and 545. It is a different matter that the passage of these two resolutions made GA 443 effectively a dead letter, as its provisions were inapplicable in any case. If a resolution regulating pardons and other exceptions in the target were passed, the target would still be useful and effective in its main provisions.

As for "escaping critique", that is not what I suggest. But there is much distance between critique and repeal. When a flaw in existing law can be solved without a repeal and replace, why go that route and unnecessarily increase the resolution count?
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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Mar 10, 2023 8:19 am

According to the author of the target resolution, replacing before repealing even if repealing can be completely avoided is bad because it causes inefficiency in the WA and the gnomes have to promulgate twice as many proposals, or something like that. Those may be contributing reasons.
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Postby The Ice States » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:12 am

Ooc: I will respond to the repeal's points later, but to address the conversation above: I don't think a companion resolution would necessarily be illegal; even though legal does not necessarily mean a good idea. I remain unconvinced by these arguments, though I respect the author's right to hold them.

Honeydewistania wrote:According to the author of the target resolution, replacing before repealing even if repealing can be completely avoided is bad because it causes inefficiency in the WA and the gnomes have to promulgate twice as many proposals, or something like that. Those may be contributing reasons.

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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:08 pm

I don't see the issue. Parliamentary sovereignty and associated popular sovereignty (eg the Roman comitia can pass leges which are sovereign legislation able to do whatever is desired; see eg the lex Plautia circa 70 BC which granted amnesties for all those involved in the Sertorian war) are good things, especially to unseat rule by unelected judges.
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:45 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:I don't see the issue. Parliamentary sovereignty and associated popular sovereignty (eg the Roman comitia can pass leges which are sovereign legislation able to do whatever is desired; see eg the lex Plautia circa 70 BC which granted amnesties for all those involved in the Sertorian war) are good things, especially to unseat rule by unelected judges.

(OOC: I certainly agree that Parliamentary sovereignty is a good thing, though I cannot meaningfully speak about the context of the Roman system of law. However, it and the associated idea of discretionary powers does rather ruin the test used by GA #649 of “public interest”. Although, in the abstract, legislative control over the implementation of policy is superior to judicial control over the same (see the nightmare that judges have made over baselessly interpreting s. 2 of the Human Rights Act 1998 to mean total control by the ECtHR over Parliamentary statute), this is less true where international standards are supposed to be maintained. GA #649 might work perfectly fine from the domestic standpoint, insofar as it protects that national determination, but it is useless from an internationalist one.

Merni wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: I disagree with that, for two reasons: one more immediate and one more conceptual. On the immediate front, I don’t believe that ‘where allowed under … future standing World Assembly law’ would include direct disagreement with mandates. It seems to me that the qualification applies more to different points that might have some overlap, such as a future piece of legislation restricting police-immunity where racial hate-crimes are involved, rather than completely altering the meaning of one of the terms.

On a more conceptual basis, that point could be applied to just about any proposal with the qualification ‘where allowed under past or future standing World Assembly law’, which, if taken as true, would make such proposals able to be amended by simply passing more legislation on the same topic. That does not seem in the spirit of the GA, given that amendments are banned. A piece of legislation should not be able to escape critique simply because it could be overridden.)


Both these points seem to be addressed by this GenSec decision:
Regarding the Amendment claims, we simply don't agree with the suggested interpretation of the Amendment rule. The author intended not to amend, but to further tighten the legal ratchet built by NAPA. On Abortion left the opportunity for the WA to further open, but not restrict, access to abortions. Reproductive Freedoms used that ratchet option to open it up. It really just built off the existing legal landscape, which makes for a precarious law, but not an illegal one. So, too, did the author intend to ratchet up the restriction against "wrong hands".

There is a reason that Amendment violations are separate from Contradiction violations. An amendment contradicts the existing terms, but breaks the game specifically because previous legislation can't be modified. If it wasn't for this underlying difference, Amendment violations could otherwise fall under Contradiction violations. So there must be something substantively different between the two, and we believe it is that Amendment violations actively attempt to somehow alter the text of the extant legislation.

This doesn't try to modify the original text of NAPA, merely tighten the ratchet for how nations view those parties that can't own nuclear weapons. Since it falls in the penumbra of allowed Duplication, and since it isn't trying to change the text of NAPA, we find that it is legal.


The target here imposes restrictions on arbitrary application of laws by member-states, but leaves some exceptions, explicitly subject to future legislation. I think this necessarily includes the potential for tightening the restrictions on the exception in future ("tightening the ratchet"). The situation is similar to that with "Preventing the Execution of Innocents" (GA 443), whose existence did not prevent the passage of fuller bans of the death penalty in GA 535 and 545. It is a different matter that the passage of these two resolutions made GA 443 effectively a dead letter, as its provisions were inapplicable in any case. If a resolution regulating pardons and other exceptions in the target were passed, the target would still be useful and effective in its main provisions.

As for "escaping critique", that is not what I suggest. But there is much distance between critique and repeal. When a flaw in existing law can be solved without a repeal and replace, why go that route and unnecessarily increase the resolution count?


I never meant to say that future, additional legislation would be in violation of GA #649 for the amendment-rule: apologies if I was unclear. My point was more that GA #649 violates the spirit of the rule, because it leaves itself open to be both widened and narrowed by further resolutions. The “public interest” test is unsatisfactory, which I believe is common ground. If future legislation were to implement a different test, which could be legal due to the widened of GA #649’s provision on future legislation, then that would render the relevant clause of GA #649 totally nugatory. Such a situation does not seem satisfactory.)
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Postby The Ice States » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:00 pm

Why would the World Assembly (and the IAO, etc) have to recognise member nations' parliamentary sovereignty as being sufficient to meet the "demonstrably..." burden? I find that the most natural reading of demonstrably, in this context, would be as "provably" or "verifiably".
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:02 pm

The Ice States wrote:Why would the World Assembly (and the IAO, etc) have to recognise member nations' parliamentary sovereignty as being sufficient to meet the "demonstrably..." burden?

(OOC: I’m not really certain how to answer this. It’s as if one were asking ‘why should the IAO recognise this nation’s police-force as being a police-force?’. Because it is? That’s how discretionary powers work in common-law countries. I cited a few cases in the TNP-Government server as examples. I suppose that a future resolution could completely overrule the common law and implement civil, Romanist principles in all member-nations, but that has fortunately not yet happened.

Based on the edit, the same principle applies. There would be some wording that would clarify, if it said something along the lines of a discretionary burden of proof following Wednesbury principles still being reviewable for compliance with a metric of public interest, as opposed to the presumption of discretionary powers being non-justiciable. However, the word ‘demonstrably’ by itself does not overrule the usual principles of statutory interpretation.)
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Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
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Postby Chipoli » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:50 pm

I'm not convinced by your argument. It appears to confuse legislative sovereignty with potential power abuses by elected officials. While many nations regard their national legislature as sovereign, this does not necessarily imply that the legislature can act with impunity or without accountability. Checks and balances are in place in many democratic countries to ensure that the executive and legislative branches do not misuse their power.
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Postby Comfed » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:52 pm

Chipoli wrote:I'm not convinced by your argument. It appears to confuse legislative sovereignty with potential power abuses by elected officials. While many nations regard their national legislature as sovereign, this does not necessarily imply that the legislature can act with impunity or without accountability. Checks and balances are in place in many democratic countries to ensure that the executive and legislative branches do not misuse their power.

Not all democratic countries, though.

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Postby The Ice States » Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:58 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
The Ice States wrote:Why would the World Assembly (and the IAO, etc) have to recognise member nations' parliamentary sovereignty as being sufficient to meet the "demonstrably..." burden?

(OOC: I’m not really certain how to answer this. It’s as if one were asking ‘why should the IAO recognise this nation’s police-force as being a police-force?’. Because it is? That’s how discretionary powers work in common-law countries. I cited a few cases in the TNP-Government server as examples. I suppose that a future resolution could completely overrule the common law and implement civil, Romanist principles in all member-nations, but that has fortunately not yet happened.

Based on the edit, the same principle applies. There would be some wording that would clarify, if it said something along the lines of a discretionary burden of proof following Wednesbury principles still being reviewable for compliance with a metric of public interest, as opposed to the presumption of discretionary powers being non-justiciable. However, the word ‘demonstrably’ by itself does not overrule the usual principles of statutory interpretation.)

I still don't see how "demonstrably" is not most naturally read in its plain reading. The IAO need not recognise member nation common law, that "demonstrably" refers to "an entity with the power to determine makes a decision"; nor is it required to recognise that member nation legislatures indeed have "the power to determine". While I don't believe the repeal to be an outright Honest Mistake, I also don't think that member nations can simply redefine terms, even if via common law. If they could, then there's no point in passing any legislation whatsoever. The court of Contrarian Extraordinaire hereby rules that the term "religion" in GA #635 refers only to belief in Woctate'e, and no other group or belief.
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:44 pm

The Ice States wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: I’m not really certain how to answer this. It’s as if one were asking ‘why should the IAO recognise this nation’s police-force as being a police-force?’. Because it is? That’s how discretionary powers work in common-law countries. I cited a few cases in the TNP-Government server as examples. I suppose that a future resolution could completely overrule the common law and implement civil, Romanist principles in all member-nations, but that has fortunately not yet happened.

Based on the edit, the same principle applies. There would be some wording that would clarify, if it said something along the lines of a discretionary burden of proof following Wednesbury principles still being reviewable for compliance with a metric of public interest, as opposed to the presumption of discretionary powers being non-justiciable. However, the word ‘demonstrably’ by itself does not overrule the usual principles of statutory interpretation.)

I still don't see how "demonstrably" is not most naturally read in its plain reading. The IAO need not recognise member nation common law, that "demonstrably" refers to "an entity with the power to determine makes a decision"; nor is it required to recognise that member nation legislatures indeed have "the power to determine". While I don't believe the repeal to be an outright Honest Mistake, I also don't think that member nations can simply redefine terms, even if via common law. If they could, then there's no point in passing any legislation whatsoever. The court of Contrarian Extraordinaire hereby rules that the term "religion" in GA #635 refers only to belief in Woctate'e, and no other group or belief.

(OOC: The simple answer to why ‘demonstrably’ is not read in its plain meaning is that legal meanings overrule plain ones when considering legislation. This is why ‘person’ means ‘entity with rights and obligations’ rather than ‘individual’, why ‘Crown’ means ‘the monarchy as an entity distinct to the holder of that office’ rather than ‘spiked metal hat’, and why ‘defence’ means ‘factor vitiating criminal liability even where there is an actus reus, a mens rea, and no exemption’ rather than ‘the opposite of offence’.

With that said, this isn’t really about the definition of ‘demonstrably’. It’s about how discretionary powers function. Let’s say that Parliament gives the Secretary of State the power to decide which fruits to ban (more precisely, empowers the Secretary of State to propose statutory instruments for approval or rejection, according to one of four processes, but it’s not as though Parliament really scrutinises secondary legislation), and Parliament does so stating that the Secretary of State must do so according to which fruits are evidently worse. The Secretary of State bans strawberries: the fool. One might imagine that the Secretary of State might be subject to some penalty for choosing what is objectively the best fruit (let’s ignore the Bill of Rights, Article 9).

However, this is done as a discretionary power. Parliament is saying that the Secretary of State is under an obligation to select which fruits are evidently worse. Provided that the statutory language is not ambiguous, this is non-justiciable. The Secretary of State is the entity on whose basis the evidence is provided. So long as there was not one of Lord Bingham’s three grounds of review (or four, as in R (Ullah) v Special Adjudicator), which would apply if the Secretary of State chose to ban carrots, which are a vegetable, the Secretary of State’s decision cannot be challenged. It is not because the Secretary of State is using some different, unique definition of ‘evidently’, but because the Secretary of State is the one on whose basis ‘evidently’ is satisfied.

EDIT: My point may have gotten lost there. Here’s the key flaw: “The core argument is that the ‘public interest’ exception is overly broad. This is because an actor in a member-nation could be the one with the ability to determine what is in the public interest.” Everything else just explains why this is the case.)
Last edited by Kenmoria on Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Honeydewistania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:29 pm

The Ice States wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:According to the author of the target resolution, replacing before repealing even if repealing can be completely avoided is bad because it causes inefficiency in the WA and the gnomes have to promulgate twice as many proposals, or something like that. Those may be contributing reasons.

Your petty gotchyas are nothing but that, petty. Please discontinue them.


I apologise for providing context on the reasons why someone would opt to repeal before replacing. I won't do it again.
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The Ice States
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby The Ice States » Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:37 pm

Kenmoria wrote:Long post

As I said on Discord, I think it would be a much more compelling argument to simply state that the test is ambiguous and can therefore be exploited. I'm still not sure if I'd agree, but it would immediately seem to improve the case this makes.
-----
Honeydewistania wrote:
The Ice States wrote:Your petty gotchyas are nothing but that, petty. Please discontinue them.

I apologise for providing context on the reasons why someone would opt to repeal before replacing. I won't do it again.

Not to threadjack, but your post is nothing but a snide gotchya, and not a very good one at that. You seem to be the only person who holds such relentless spite of this magnitude over the repeal of Drug Decriminalization Act. I completely understand your desire that your resolution be kept on the books, but there is really no need to make such a scene over it being repealed.

I also don't understand your vendetta against me you seem to have held for a while. You seem to have a rather annoying habit of trying to bring up things I have said or done in the past for no reason other than to make snide gotchyas, which I do not appreciate, and would like to ask you to discontinue.

Once again, I apologise to the authors if this comes off as threadjacking.
Last edited by The Ice States on Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Simone Republic
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Simone Republic » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:57 am

Draft 2. This now focuses more on the core argument below, quoting Kenmoria:

The core argument is that the ‘public interest’ exception is overly broad. This is because an actor in a member-nation could be the one with the ability to determine what is in the public interest.”


Another paragraph has been added, to acknowledge the comments from the esteemed Goobergunchia on the NSWA discord:

"Acknowledging at the same time the compliance powers derived from GAR#440;"

The original comments on Discord were:
"I do think it will be funny when the Compliance Commission goes after nations because their police officers noticed people jaywalking and failed to arrest them."



Additional comments from Kenmoria below.

It is because there’s no mention of any external standard as to whom this is being demonstrated. The member-state is never given a mandate to demonstrate this to any particular entity. That was where the analogy to discretionary powers arose. Suppose that the Secretary of State is the person in a member-nation that is in charge of deciding whether something is in the public interest. In the common law, this decision will not, by its nature, be justiciable. The Secretary of State decides whether something is demonstrably in the public interest, and that is for the determination of the Secretary of State alone.

Because “demonstrably” isn’t attached to anything, in the sense that it doesn’t involve any criteria or any object of the demonstration, it just modifies what it is that the Secretary of State is determining. An argument on “public interest” would probably be more broadly applicable, and it would be a lot more comprehensible. However, I don’t have much liking for repeals that just say that a given term isn’t defined.
Last edited by Simone Republic on Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:07 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Anne of Cleves in TNP
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Founded: Aug 12, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Anne of Cleves in TNP » Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:16 am

Simone Republic wrote:Draft 2

The World Assembly,

Concerned by clause 2(1) of this resolution, which failed to define what constitutes a "demonstrabl(e)" case of "public interest" or "the public's interest" in enacting "measures such as commutations and pardons, including refraining from prosecuting a case";

Dismayed by the flaws deriving from the lack of such definitions, which may permit politicians to determine themselves the fate of pardons and prosecutions for crimes in the absence of an independent "public interest" test and undermine due process of law;

Hereby repeals "Legal Equality Act".


OOC: After reading the first few paragraphs of a paper regarding public interest, I find that these above arguments are invalid. According to Clarke E. Cochran, what he defines as the politics of interest
“is the understanding of politics in terms of autonomous and isolated individuals and their interests. It is the vision of politics as an arena into which individuals and groups of individuals enter in order to advance their own interests or preferences. These interests are transformed by the political process--in a manner whose conceptualization varies from theory to theory--into outputs, policies, or outcomes which, temporarily at least, satisfy the interests of the political actors.?
The dominance of the politics of interest makes impossible within contemporary political science any credible notion of a public interest or a common good. There can be no public interest because there is no public or community other than the aggregation of individuals and special interest groups which they form.


On analysis of this quote, politics of interest is comprised of individuals and their interests. Therefore, there is not much of an issue from lacking a definition of “public interest”, since that concept immediately falls apart since the politics of interest is a concept built on individuals, so everyone has different opinions. Therefore, “public interest” is always overly broad, so the main argument is void. I am thus opposed to this repeal.


Works Cited:

Cochran, Clarke E. “Political Science and ‘The Public Interest.’” The Journal of Politics, vol. 36, no. 2, 1974, pp. 327–55. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2129473. Accessed 11 Mar. 2023.
Last edited by Anne of Cleves in TNP on Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:20 am

Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:
Simone Republic wrote:Draft 2

The World Assembly,

Concerned by clause 2(1) of this resolution, which failed to define what constitutes a "demonstrabl(e)" case of "public interest" or "the public's interest" in enacting "measures such as commutations and pardons, including refraining from prosecuting a case";

Dismayed by the flaws deriving from the lack of such definitions, which may permit politicians to determine themselves the fate of pardons and prosecutions for crimes in the absence of an independent "public interest" test and undermine due process of law;

Hereby repeals "Legal Equality Act".


OOC: After reading the first few paragraphs of a paper regarding public interest, I find that these above arguments are invalid. According to Clarke E. Cochran, what he defines as the politics of interest
“is the understanding of politics in terms of autonomous and isolated individuals and their interests. It is the vision of politics as an arena into which individuals and groups of individuals enter in order to advance their own interests or preferences. These interests are transformed by the political process--in a manner whose conceptualization varies from theory to theory--into outputs, policies, or outcomes which, temporarily at least, satisfy the interests of the political actors.?
The dominance of the politics of interest makes impossible within contemporary political science any credible notion of a public interest or a common good. There can be no public interest because there is no public or community other than the aggregation of individuals and special interest groups which they form.


On analysis of this quote, politics of interest is comprised of individuals and their interests. Therefore, there is not much of an issue from lacking a definition of “public interest”, since that concept immediately falls apart since the politics of interest is a concept built on individuals, so everyone has different opinions. Therefore, “public interest” is always overly broad, so the main argument is void. I am thus opposed to this repeal.


Works Cited:

Cochran, Clarke E. “Political Science and ‘The Public Interest.’” The Journal of Politics, vol. 36, no. 2, 1974, pp. 327–55. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2129473. Accessed 11 Mar. 2023.

(OOC: Assuming for the moment that the argument is correct and public interest is indeed a concept without meaning, that would be a point against the targeted resolution, which uses the phrase ‘public interest’. It would not be an argument against this repeal, which criticises the broadness of the term ‘public interest’, albeit in a different way.)
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
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Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
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Anne of Cleves in TNP
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 371
Founded: Aug 12, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Anne of Cleves in TNP » Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:52 am

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: Assuming for the moment that the argument is correct and public interest is indeed a concept without meaning, that would be a point against the targeted resolution, which uses the phrase ‘public interest’. It would not be an argument against this repeal, which criticises the broadness of the term ‘public interest’, albeit in a different way.)


My apologies for the initial argument below, I figured that the author can take control over term vagueness by simply excluding the term altogether. Feel free to debate my initial argument though. I am now for this repeal.

The target resolution does use that term, so it would weaken the resolution in general. But I would also argue that an argument against the resolution on the basis that it fails to define a term that in essence cannot be truly defined by anyone is also not extremely strong. As I see it, there is a paradox. On one hand, the target resolution is weakened by using a vague term. On the other hand, a repeal that targets said resolution on the basis that it fails to define the term is also weak since that term cannot be truly defined.

Therefore, I will be changing my opinion on this repeal to neutral.

TLDR: I am arguing that the resolution is weak, but that this repeal’s argument is useless since it blames the target resolution for not defining a term, even though the vagueness of the term is beyond the author’s control.
Last edited by Anne of Cleves in TNP on Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Tinhampton
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Mar 11, 2023 2:56 pm

Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:Works Cited:

Cochran, Clarke E. “Political Science and ‘The Public Interest.’” The Journal of Politics, vol. 36, no. 2, 1974, pp. 327–55. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2129473. Accessed 11 Mar. 2023.

This is the General Assembly, not your university. The moderators will not warn or ban you for not citing your sources in an academic manner. They won't even act if you don't cite your sources at all.

For what it's worth, I do not support this repeal. Article 2 allows for future resolutions to patch holes in its subarticles.
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Anne of Cleves in TNP
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 371
Founded: Aug 12, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Anne of Cleves in TNP » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:10 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:Works Cited:

Cochran, Clarke E. “Political Science and ‘The Public Interest.’” The Journal of Politics, vol. 36, no. 2, 1974, pp. 327–55. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2129473. Accessed 11 Mar. 2023.

This is the General Assembly, not your university. The moderators will not warn or ban you for not citing your sources in an academic manner. They won't even act if you don't cite your sources at all.

Ok, I may have gone too far with a full MLA citation, but I have seen others make short references to papers, and so I wanted to join the paper reference club. :)

Tinhampton wrote:
Anne of Cleves in TNP wrote:For what it's worth, I do not support this repeal. Article 2 allows for future resolutions to patch holes in its subarticles.


Whatt can I say? Your choice. ;)
Last edited by Anne of Cleves in TNP on Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Ice States
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 2893
Founded: Jun 23, 2022
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby The Ice States » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:16 pm

I apologise for not having noticed this, given how quickly this was drafted and not being in the original draft I reviewed. However I would very strongly disagree with the final argument. If the public interest clause really is that exploitable, the "refraining from prosecuting a case" exception (which explicitly falls under the test) would allow for "police discretion in enforcing minor offences". Even if it isn't that exploitable (I don't think it is), the public has a rather clear interest against unnecessary arrests, so member nations would have a solid argument for allowing such discretion.
Last edited by The Ice States on Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Lozho
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Founded: Jun 19, 2022
Corporate Police State

Postby Lozho » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:25 pm

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Goobergunchia
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Goobergunchia » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:13 am

The Ice States wrote:I apologise for not having noticed this, given how quickly this was drafted and not being in the original draft I reviewed. However I would very strongly disagree with the final argument. If the public interest clause really is that exploitable, the "refraining from prosecuting a case" exception (which explicitly falls under the test) would allow for "police discretion in enforcing minor offences". Even if it isn't that exploitable (I don't think it is), the public has a rather clear interest against unnecessary arrests, so member nations would have a solid argument for allowing such discretion.

We would observe that an arrest made to duly enforce an enacted law could hardly be deemed "unnecessary." While the public has an interest in proper allocation of law enforcement resources, surely it can never "outweigh the public's interest in accountability under the law" for law enforcement to ignore crimes being committed in front of them unless they are actively engaged in clearing a greater crime?

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian WA Ambassador


[OOC: I mentioned jaywalking, incidentally, because California recently decriminalized it because of selective and racially-biased enforcement. I'm not completely opposed to saying that WA members just can't have that kind of minor offense, but ... you'd probably be asking for, like, everybody to implement automated traffic enforcement which probably merits its own discussion.]

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