[Defeated] Ban on Forced Service

[Second Sovereignty]

Yes I am prepared to grab a machine gun and fight.

"You see, I don't believe that. If that we true, then you would already be in your country's military; instead, you are here, in the World Assembly. You clearly have deeply compelling reasons to not be fighting or standing by for duty. A family, perhaps, goals and dreams; perhaps you simply aren't cut out for the rigidity of military life. It's very easy to say you're ready and willing, quite another to be. Throughout history, in any culture and society, there are always those proudly dedicated patriots, who are very happy to talk and fantasize about the glories they would enact for their countries who, when pressed, quickly find themselves among the pacifists and objectors.

Oh, and don't think I didn't notice you dodging the hypothetical there."

By the way I am also a gun owner and I have had some basic arms training.

"Good for you? Do you expect me to be, I don't know, put off by that? Half of my Kivit is in the Sovereign Guard and while I'm something of a poor shot, I'm not exactly unfamiliar with weaponry. I was always better with martial arts, myself."

[Kaphellonia]

"Kaphellonia would support this resolution. While we understand there is existing law prohibiting nations from forcing conscientious objectors to serve, our community believes you shouldn't have to have any specific reason to not want to serve. Not wanting to risk your life and safety is enough of a reason. To be quite frank, forced conscription, even during desperate times, is a barbaric and out-dated practice that is unsuitable for modern, civilized societies."

[Kaphellonia]

This is unreasonable. Conscription may be essential for surviving a defensive war, especially one where the invader has genocidal or otherwise brutal and oppressive intents. Nations should not be compelled to sacrifice their own people in order to avoid the lesser evil of limited involuntary labor.

"If the people of a nation wish to defend it then they will sign up willingly. If they instead choose to flee the nation, that is their choice. If the people don't willingly sign up to fight, then it's because their nation has failed them. We should be trying to create nations that are worth fighting for, and if a government fails in that task and also fails to solve conflicts through peaceful means, then it deserves to fall, does it not? Governments exist to serve the people, not the other way around. What is truly 'unreasonable' is forcing people to fight and die so you can remain in power even though what lead you to this point was your own failure to lead responsibly."

[Simone Republic]

Yes I am prepared to grab a machine gun and fight.

"You see, I don't believe that. If that we true, then you would already be in your country's military; instead, you are here, in the World Assembly. You clearly have deeply compelling reasons to not be fighting or standing by for duty. A family, perhaps, goals and dreams; perhaps you simply aren't cut out for the rigidity of military life. It's very easy to say you're ready and willing, quite another to be. Throughout history, in any culture and society, there are always those proudly dedicated patriots, who are very happy to talk and fantasize about the glories they would enact for their countries who, when pressed, quickly find themselves among the pacifists and objectors.

Oh, and don't think I didn't notice you dodging the hypothetical there."

(OOC)

I am not a citizen of a country that is technically at war with anyone else, although I have a gun license where my family resides. I am not normally eligible for front line duties due to chronic health issues, but if push comes to shove, yes I'd be fighting.

[Warveridal]

"This proposal is preposterous! if my country is fighting a war against a country that wants to genocide all warveridalian citizens, should we not be able to call on extra manpower to fight for our country? A country should be able to choose it's own military service system,, this removes a system that's in many case vital for a countries armed forces!, if this reaches the voting floor we will be voting against the moment we can!"
Jose Vélez
World Assembly ambassador,
Republic of Warveridal

[Second Sovereignty]

(OOC)
I am not a citizen of a country that is technically at war with anyone else, although I have a gun license where my family resides. I am not normally eligible for front line duties due to chronic health issues, but if push comes to shove, yes I'd be fighting.

OOC:
Good for you? If we're putting ourselves as an example, I yearn for the death of the country in which I live, and am thus quite obviously disinclined to die for it. Sounds much more like you would be a volunteer soldier, rather than a conscript, so I don't see what this has to do with, anything.

[Very totally free]

Alright,I got some major problems with this proposal. It is clearly designed to restrict the potential of a glorious nation such as mine. If you ask me ,this proposal,which undermines conscription,would hinder the strength of all member nations and the world assembly as a whole.

[Simone Republic]

(OOC)
I am not a citizen of a country that is technically at war with anyone else, although I have a gun license where my family resides. I am not normally eligible for front line duties due to chronic health issues, but if push comes to shove, yes I'd be fighting.

OOC:
Good for you? If we're putting ourselves as an example, I yearn for the death of the country in which I live, and am thus quite obviously disinclined to die for it. Sounds much more like you would be a volunteer soldier, rather than a conscript, so I don't see what this has to do with, anything.

I suppose you have a point there - it's hard to legislate to force someone (whom I'd consider a coward) to fight.

[Second Sovereignty]

I suppose you have a point there - it's hard to legislate to force someone (whom I'd consider a coward) to fight.

OOC:
If you have no arguments other than to insult me, then I will take this as an admission of failure, and look forward to your support when this reaches vote.

[Old Hope]

Defines Forced Service as any law, policy, or other legal mechanism that compels, coerces, or otherwise requires military service, whether in combat or non-combat roles, or which punishes rejection of such service

There are two reasons to be against this.
1: Required military service teaches people humility and forces them to go outside their comfort zone and work with different individuals. But that could also be reached by compulsive military education without a subsequent forced conscription into active service.
2: It's one of the most important roles for a state to make and enforce laws that either:
2a) prohibit something that individuals would have an incentive to do, but that greatly harms all citizens when everyone does it
2b) force people to do something that individuals would have an incentive to avoid, but greatly harms all citizens if not enough people do it
Requiring military service in a defensive war can fall under 2b.

We suggest something like this:

3. Allows member states to perform conscription upon its citizen, albeit only fairly and based on need, other obligations and ability, if:
3a1. the member state has been attacked in a war of aggression or
3a2. has been the aggressor but has been subsequently refused surrender with the only conditions being those mandatory under WA law or
3a3. a war opponent is engaging in, or has ordered its military to engage in genocide
and
3b. the conscription method is deemed both necessary and sufficient to:
3b1. prevent the enemy states from winning a war of aggression against that member state or
3b2. force an enemy state to accept surrender with the only conditions being those mandatory for the member state under WA law
3b3. allow a much greater amount of citizens to avoid being subjected to genocidal actions(e.g. a small conscripted force sacrificing itself to give others time to
flee a genocidal enemy)

[The Ice States]

As always, the author can and should safely ignore the comments by Old Hope.
-----

There are two reasons to be against this.
1: Required military service teaches people humility and forces them to go outside their comfort zone and work with different individuals. But that could also be reached by compulsive military education without a subsequent forced conscription into active service.

There is little point in being taught humility when you're dead.

3. Allows member states to perform conscription upon its citizen, albeit only fairly and based on need, other obligations and ability, if:
3a1. the member state has been attacked in a war of aggression or
3a2. has been the aggressor but has been subsequently refused surrender with the only conditions being those mandatory under WA law or
3a3. a war opponent is engaging in, or has ordered its military to engage in genocide
and
3b. the conscription method is deemed both necessary and sufficient to:
3b1. prevent the enemy states from winning a war of aggression against that member state or
3b2. force an enemy state to accept surrender with the only conditions being those mandatory for the member state under WA law
3b3. allow a much greater amount of citizens to avoid being subjected to genocidal actions(e.g. a small conscripted force sacrificing itself to give others time to
flee a genocidal enemy)

Besides the grammar errors here, 3b3 makes no sense. This seems like something which is best done by willing recruits, or it amounts to little more than state-sanctioned murder of its own citizens.

[Second Sovereignty]

OOC:
Aside from Old Hope, does anyone have anything to say about this?

[Namwenia]

"I stand here in support of proposals such as this which would prohibit forced service and conscription and feel it is brief, but well put. However, I would recommend language in the preamble which recognizes GA #132's protection of conscientious objectors while noting the gap whereby it does not protect all persons from forced service."
-Pat McDonald
World Assembly Ambassador
United Socialist States of Namwenia

[Lesbias]

OOC:
Aside from Old Hope, does anyone have anything to say about this?

"Other than Lesbias' wishes for a definition on coercion and compulsion Lesbias supports this bill."

[Zanderlock]

OOC
I don't understand why but, firmly Against and, I am angry since I can't describe why I don't like it, but, I just don't. Good and well-written draft, though. Continue the good great ABSOLUTLY AMAZING work
You are one of the greatest Draft Writers EVER!

[The Ice States]

I don't think this is likely to pass, but nonetheless this still gets full support from me, with the at vote repeal's passage being imminent.

[Old Hope]

We still very much disagree. People like their country to be protected by a military and also generally find it a good idea to conscript people if that's necessary to prevent harm from those who cannot fight. Of course, no one right in their mind likes to be conscripted themselves, but that's just the cost. We would like to see a more nuanced version; this isn't it.

[Urkennalaid]

"Everyone should have the liberty of choosing whether or not to fight for their country. What is the more nuanced take than this? The United Socialist States of Urkennalaid is in full support of this resolution."

[Vexilia]

"In current laws every Vexilian citizen aged 16 and up are automatically members of the military. Anyone under 19 is exempt from combat roles unless the State activates 'emergency protocols' which have not been used under the Phoenix regime as of yet. Everyone's trained on the standard issue weapons in case, but only active combat members get to utilize it more than just training ranges. Children with high aptitudes may be recommended to attend one of many different universities across the nation once they hit 19. Also at 19 citizens get a choice between entering the civil service or remaining in the military. Civil service is an extremely broad range of career paths in the government itself or any of the many state-owned entreprises or industries. So as it seems this resolution could create instability in how Vexilia operates and on that basis the comrades' assembly votes [against] for the time being, acknowledging that this is only a Draft Version."

-Ministry of Foreign Affairs, by order of the President of Vexilia.

[Doge Land]

OOC: Wouldn't this be a Game Mechanics (or similar) violation? I know GA proposals can change stats, but I don't think they can change policies (In this case, Conscription). Correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't know too much about this stuff.

Also, if this isn't a violation, the proposal strength should probably be Strong (stronger than Significant).

[The Ice States]

OOC: Wouldn't this be a Game Mechanics (or similar) violation? I know GA proposals can change stats, but I don't think they can change policies (In this case, Conscription). Correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't know too much about this stuff.

Ooc: That there is an in-game policy for a topic does not make it illegal for the WA to address the topic. There is a "No Abortion" policy, yet the WA has passed two resolutions legalising abortion.

[Doge Land]

OOC: Wouldn't this be a Game Mechanics (or similar) violation? I know GA proposals can change stats, but I don't think they can change policies (In this case, Conscription). Correct me if I'm wrong though, I don't know too much about this stuff.

Ooc: That there is an in-game policy for a topic does not make it illegal for the WA to address the topic. There is a "No Abortion" policy, yet the WA has passed two resolutions legalising abortion.

OOC: Ah yes, that makes sense. Ignore me, lol

[Second Sovereignty]

OOC:
This will be submitted soon, apologies for the delay.

[Simone Republic]

I suppose you have a point there - it's hard to legislate to force someone (whom I'd consider a coward) to fight.

OOC:
If you have no arguments other than to insult me, then I will take this as an admission of failure, and look forward to your support when this reaches vote.

That quote was not aimed at you personally. Please note that I am opposing all three resolutions related to this issue at hand (yours, Magecastle's, and Tinhampton's).

[Picairn]

This is unreasonable. Conscription may be essential for surviving a defensive war, especially one where the invader has genocidal or otherwise brutal and oppressive intents. Nations should not be compelled to sacrifice their own people in order to avoid the lesser evil of limited involuntary labor.

"Concurred. Those who associate conscription with the danger of throwing lives into the meat-grinder by fascist regimes fail to understand that conscription is also used by small nations to generate a sufficient force to respond to wars of conquest initiated by fascist states. Volunteer armies are nothing if they are overwhelmed by adequately trained conscript armies.

Those who believe that volunteers will surge en masse in defense of their homeland without conscription is delusional. Many have prioritized their safety before the nation's security, even if their homeland is at risk of subjugation and the subsequent terror of their enemies. Every able-bodied man that flees the country or avoids military service is a loss to its national defense.

I must call attention to the fact that non-members of the World Assembly is completely unaffected by this ban, and dictatorial regimes would no doubt be delighted to hear that this democratic assembly has greatly assisted their wars of conquest by prohibiting conscription in smaller WA member-nations."