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[WITHDRAWN] Convention Against Military Aggression

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Starman of Stardust
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Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:33 am

Definition of peace has been added. This will not be submitted until the queue has cleared.

Potted Plants United wrote:
Princess Rainbow Sparkles wrote:I understood PPU’s point to be that bad actors can always drum up a false flag attack so they can “retaliate”. The point they were making is not that the Russians were engaging in a pre-emptive strike to prevent incoming aggression from the Fins. The point is that if we’re excluding pre-emptive strikes on the basis that bad faith actions would exploit them to start wars without proper justification, then we should assume the bad actors will also drum up “legal” retaliatory excuses for their wars. (I think, PPU correct me if I’m wrong here).

OOC: You got it right. I didn't explain my point clearly. Glad you were awake enough to do so. XD

It is much easier to say "Devonia is about to invade us!!!!" than putting in the effort to do an entire false flag attack to "retaliate".
Last edited by Starman of Stardust on Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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Princess Rainbow Sparkles
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Posts: 472
Founded: Nov 08, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Princess Rainbow Sparkles » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:12 pm

Starman of Stardust wrote:Definition of peace has been added. This will not be submitted until the queue has cleared.

Potted Plants United wrote:OOC: You got it right. I didn't explain my point clearly. Glad you were awake enough to do so. XD

It is much easier to say "Devonia is about to invade us!!!!" than putting in the effort to do an entire false flag attack to "retaliate".

"Requiring member nations to always suffer first blood is not good policy. Prohibiting member nations from proactively defending themselves when their intelligence agencies tell them that the enemy is preparing to attack is not good policy."

"The Princess generally supports what you are trying to do and that is why I am providing constructive feedback. Your insistence on prohibiting defensive first-strikes will prevent this from being a good law. If it's enacted at all, opponents will enjoy a very solid argument for repealing it."

"Do what you will with your proposal on this subject. But try to understand that most people believe it is justifiable self defense to shoot a knife-wielding maniac before they get close enough to stab you."

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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:18 pm

Princess Rainbow Sparkles wrote:
Starman of Stardust wrote:Definition of peace has been added. This will not be submitted until the queue has cleared.


It is much easier to say "Devonia is about to invade us!!!!" than putting in the effort to do an entire false flag attack to "retaliate".

"Requiring member nations to always suffer first blood is not good policy. Prohibiting member nations from proactively defending themselves when their intelligence agencies tell them that the enemy is preparing to attack is not good policy."

"The Princess generally supports what you are trying to do and that is why I am providing constructive feedback. Your insistence on prohibiting defensive first-strikes will prevent this from being a good law. If it's enacted at all, opponents will enjoy a very solid argument for repealing it."

"Do what you will with your proposal on this subject. But try to understand that most people believe it is justifiable self defense to shoot a knife-wielding maniac before they get close enough to stab you."

"You can defend yourself without invading a nation you believe -- genuinely or not -- to be about to attack you."
Last edited by Starman of Stardust on Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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West Barack and East Obama
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Founded: Apr 20, 2022
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby West Barack and East Obama » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:34 pm

Dr Justin Obama, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: Where does disputed territory fall under all of this? Would it be considered 'sovereign territory' of member states?

Also, we note that there is nothing regarding attacking and sinking ships on international waters, which would certainly count as an 'act of war' in our opinion.
Sonnel is the place.

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Princess Rainbow Sparkles
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Founded: Nov 08, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Princess Rainbow Sparkles » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:35 pm

Starman of Stardust wrote:
Princess Rainbow Sparkles wrote:"Requiring member nations to always suffer first blood is not good policy. Prohibiting member nations from proactively defending themselves when their intelligence agencies tell them that the enemy is preparing to attack is not good policy."

"The Princess generally supports what you are trying to do and that is why I am providing constructive feedback. Your insistence on prohibiting defensive first-strikes will prevent this from being a good law. If it's enacted at all, opponents will enjoy a very solid argument for repealing it."

"Do what you will with your proposal on this subject. But try to understand that most people believe it is justifiable self defense to shoot a knife-wielding maniac before they get close enough to stab you."

"You can defend yourself without attacking a nation you believe -- genuinely or not -- to be about to attack you."

"Not always. Not 100% of the time. At least some of the time you're going to have to resort to force at some point."

"You're dealing in absolutes with a subject that should be addressed in degrees. Taking away the option entirely is bad policy. Authorizing pre-emptive strikes only with appropriate justification could be good policy. Much better policy than requiring member nations to take losses that they could have avoided if they were free to defend themselves proactively."

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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:51 pm

West Barack and East Obama wrote:Dr Justin Obama, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: Where does disputed territory fall under all of this? Would it be considered 'sovereign territory' of member states?

Also, we note that there is nothing regarding attacking and sinking ships on international waters, which would certainly count as an 'act of war' in our opinion.

"We believe both of these matters to now be addressed."
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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The Ice States
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Founded: Jun 23, 2022
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Ice States » Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:38 pm

Bump.
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The Ice States
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Founded: Jun 23, 2022
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Postby The Ice States » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:46 pm

Bump. Submitting this soon.
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Tinhampton
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:14 am

Starman of Stardust wrote:"Section 3b is the WA sponsoring wars!" It doesn't sponsor or authorise anything. It merely leaves it to a second resolution to legislate on further (as shown by "exceptions shall apply to Section 2"; not necessarily to other resolutions).

Article 2 applies only to member nations, not to the WA itself. Unless I'm missing something here! :P
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Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715
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The Ice States
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Founded: Jun 23, 2022
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Ice States » Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:33 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Starman of Stardust wrote:"Section 3b is the WA sponsoring wars!" It doesn't sponsor or authorise anything. It merely leaves it to a second resolution to legislate on further (as shown by "exceptions shall apply to Section 2"; not necessarily to other resolutions).

Article 2 applies only to member nations, not to the WA itself. Unless I'm missing something here! :P

The point is that others have complained (mainly on Discord) that 3b prevents further restrictions in other resolutions, when in fact the exception clearly only applies to 3b.
Last edited by The Ice States on Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Posts in the WA forums are Ooc and unofficial, absent indication otherwise.
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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:26 pm

Bump.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:53 pm

“What is the purpose of the term ‘active’ in clause 3b? Surely, a member-nation that passively allows torture or genocide to occur should also be subject to armed intervention?” Lewitt mutters something about allowing certain capitalist ideologies under his breath.
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:19 pm

Kenmoria wrote:“What is the purpose of the term ‘active’ in clause 3b? Surely, a member-nation that passively allows torture or genocide to occur should also be subject to armed intervention?” Lewitt mutters something about allowing certain capitalist ideologies under his breath.

"Active is used in the sense of 'ongoing'; this will be clarified."
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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The Ice States
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Founded: Jun 23, 2022
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Ice States » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:08 am

Bump.
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Comfed
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Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:10 pm

Section 1 - what is the provision of assistance to an act of war? Is the exchange of scientific knowledge which is then used by a member state to develop weapons used in their war of aggression the provision of assistance?

Section 2 - you say that the World Assembly declares acts of war to be crimes against peace, a category of war crime. Is there an actual effect to calling it this?

Section 4 - I feel like this section should better establish what the scope of the arbitration is supposed to be.
Last edited by Comfed on Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Comfed wrote:Section 1 - what is the provision of assistance to an act of war? Is the exchange of scientific knowledge which is then used by a member state to develop weapons used in their war of aggression the provision of assistance?

Fixed.

Section 2 - you say that the World Assembly declares acts of war to be crimes against peace, a category of war crime. Is there an actual effect to calling it this?
Indeed.

Section 4 - I feel like this section should better establish what the scope of the arbitration is supposed to be.

Done.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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Simone Republic
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Founded: Jul 09, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Simone Republic » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:20 am

Against. Entirely a transplant from the TNP discord:

I am voting Against on anything post GA#2 unless there's a very clear consensus.

Also to quote Pallaith (I am going to use this quote a lot)

"Because it was needless destruction of foundational work that will allow the vultures to pick at its carcass for many iterations of votes for some new authorships but a lot of bad writing and failed attempts that may never cease to irritate us."
Last edited by Simone Republic on Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:22 am

I also note that this was submitted as Ban on Wars of Aggression, then tabled and is now being redrafted as CoMA. Why?
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 329,537): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715
The rest of my CV: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; Philosopher-Queen of Sophia; *author of the most popular SC Res. ever; anti-NPO cabalist in good standing; 48yo Tory woman w/Asperger's; Cambridge graduate ~ currently reading Possession by A.S. Byatt

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Republic of Mesque
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Posts: 115
Founded: May 01, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Republic of Mesque » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:33 am

Oppose.
The WA, as it stands, should not meddle in military affairs. For an institution that constantly flip-flops legislation, forces through "bad legislation/bad policy", often in the eyes of influent legislators (who then seek to forcefully repeal them), the WA should not get involved at all, or simply proscribe its military participation.
Getting real here: there is significant bias among various circles of this Assembly: pro-military, warmonger and interventionist policies are just ways of these supremacists to impose their will on the community.

The WA is already broken as it is, why give a terribly formulated institution the act of meddling with war and peace?

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Starman of Stardust
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Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:43 am

Tinhampton wrote:I also note that this was submitted as Ban on Wars of Aggression, then tabled and is now being redrafted as CoMA. Why?

This will be resubmitted shortly for some minor edits.

Simone Republic wrote:Against. Entirely a transplant from the TNP discord:

I am voting Against on anything post GA#2 unless there's a very clear consensus.

Also to quote Pallaith (I am going to use this quote a lot)

"Because it was needless destruction of foundational work that will allow the vultures to pick at its carcass for many iterations of votes for some new authorships but a lot of bad writing and failed attempts that may never cease to irritate us."

There's no way that the WA can come to a consensus for a replacement if everyone opposed one, unless everyone else supported.

Republic of Mesque wrote:Oppose.
The WA, as it stands, should not meddle in military affairs. For an institution that constantly flip-flops legislation, forces through "bad legislation/bad policy", often in the eyes of influent legislators (who then seek to forcefully repeal them), the WA should not get involved at all, or simply proscribe its military participation.
Getting real here: there is significant bias among various circles of this Assembly: pro-military, warmonger and interventionist policies are just ways of these supremacists to impose their will on the community.

The WA is already broken as it is, why give a terribly formulated institution the act of meddling with war and peace?

"Ambassador, this does not establish or authorise the World Assembly to participate in military affairs. In fact, it restricts the military abilities of member nations."
Last edited by Starman of Stardust on Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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Republic of Mesque
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Posts: 115
Founded: May 01, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Republic of Mesque » Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:07 pm

Starman of Stardust wrote:"Ambassador, this does not establish or authorise the World Assembly to participate in military affairs.

That's not the point. The stance which your commentary addresses is against any involvement of the WA in war and peace.

Starman of Stardust wrote:In fact, it restricts the military abilities of member nations."

Again, the WA ought to stay out of it. Today, you restrict military abilities of member nations. Tomorrow, nation X proposes WA humanitarian assistance. The next, nation Y goes on to promote WA military intervention.
We should draw the line.
The question remains: why give a terribly formulated institution the act of meddling with war and peace?

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Kenmoria
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Posts: 7923
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:03 pm

Deputy Ambassador John Smith - A gnome bearing a tablet enters the chamber. On the tablet, a suited man can be seen, fiddling nervously with some paper. “I do hope that I’m not intruding, Ambassadors. I simply wanted to ask about clause 4. Is the arbitration binding upon the involved parties, once they have agreed to it? Regardless of the answer to my query, I respectfully believe that it should be clarified.”
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Starman of Stardust
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:22 pm

Kenmoria wrote:Deputy Ambassador John Smith - A gnome bearing a tablet enters the chamber. On the tablet, a suited man can be seen, fiddling nervously with some paper. “I do hope that I’m not intruding, Ambassadors. I simply wanted to ask about clause 4. Is the arbitration binding upon the involved parties, once they have agreed to it? Regardless of the answer to my query, I respectfully believe that it should be clarified.”

"Done."

Republic of Mesque wrote:
Starman of Stardust wrote:"Ambassador, this does not establish or authorise the World Assembly to participate in military affairs.

That's not the point. The stance which your commentary addresses is against any involvement of the WA in war and peace.

Starman of Stardust wrote:In fact, it restricts the military abilities of member nations."

Again, the WA ought to stay out of it. Today, you restrict military abilities of member nations. Tomorrow, nation X proposes WA humanitarian assistance. The next, nation Y goes on to promote WA military intervention.
We should draw the line.
The question remains: why give a terribly formulated institution the act of meddling with war and peace?

"The slippery slope fallacy remains as unconvincing as ever, ambassador. The passage of this does not prevent you from opposing 'WA military intervention', or indeed, substantially influence whether that would pass."
Last edited by Starman of Stardust on Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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Republic of Mesque
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Posts: 115
Founded: May 01, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Republic of Mesque » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:09 am

Starman of Stardust wrote:"The slippery slope fallacy remains as unconvincing as ever, ambassador. The passage of this does not prevent you from opposing 'WA military intervention', or indeed, substantially influence whether that would pass."

There is no slippery slope. What there is is hubris, bias, and use of clout in the WA to influence war and peace. The WA should be acting on the behalf of members’ citizens, not influencing military matters or geopolitics.
The comment above is just an example of a few nations pushing for an agenda, not necessarily in a progressive way. Many of these proposals are being discussed at this moment.
No to World Assembly meddling: it should keep itself as irrelevant as possible in these matters. Good luck with your proposal.
Last edited by Republic of Mesque on Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Starman of Stardust
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Posts: 128
Founded: Jul 29, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Starman of Stardust » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:14 am

"Unfortunately, we will be discontinuing further work on this project, as the political climate appears to be against this proposal's passage. However, we will continue to support legislation by other missions to advance the goals of this proposal."
IC name: The Democratic Stellar Union. My main nation is The Ice States.

President: Hyo Joslyn
World Assembly Ambassador: Hayden Stubbe

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