Proposal: Gun Sale

[Esternial]

Description:

REALIZING that citizens need personal safety
SEEKING to provide personal safety to citizens

The WA herby:
1) DECLARES that any adult citizen, with normal mental status, is allowed to own non lethal guns.
2) AUTORHIZES the legal sale of non-lethal guns.
3) DECLARES that an adult, with the necessary papers, is allowed to own lethal guns
4) AUTHORIZES the legal (restricted) sale of lethal guns by government officials.
5) NOTES that any gun (lethal or not) should be kept in a safe (hidden) location, away from
children.
6) NOTES that if a crime has been commited by a legalized (lethal) gun, the owner will be trailed in court.
5) ENCOURAGES WA nations the abide this law as strictly as possible.
7) FOUNDS the World Assembly Gun Committee, which shall monitor ALL gun laws

If any Delegates are reading this post, and agree. I urge you to approve of this proposal, we need gun laws, and this is a good start!
No kids with guns! No murder-a-day! Give the Law a thing less to worr about: Gun Sale, and gun ownership included

[Sigma Dome]

Define adult - I assure you the legal definition, if any, varies wildly from nation to nation.
Define normal mental status - again, I assure you this differs from nation to nation.
What would these necessary papers for ownership be? What justification would be necessary?
Why would government officials be selling weapons at all to begin with?
Why would you hide a weapon instead of encouraging proper education to be given at lower levels? Barring that, how is hiding something making it safe?
Is there a provision preventing an owner from being tried for a stolen weapon of theirs being used?
What precisely would yet another bureaucratic cog do to help encourage the passing and usage of firearms laws?
Does the WA in fact have jurisdiction over this at all, given the vastly different national situations?

I appreciate your sentiment, but there are so many holes in this act that I could fly my flagship through them.

[Valipac]

Define non lethal gun. Any gun can be non-lethal, depending on where you aim, so that's a pretty large loophole that needs to be addressed.

[Southern Confederate States (Ancient)]

I agree, what is a non-lethal gun? cause even a tazer gun can be lethal

[Philimbesi]

1) DECLARES that any adult citizen, with normal mental status, is allowed to own non lethal guns.
2) AUTORHIZES the legal sale of non-lethal guns.

We would definitely like to see the definition of a non lethal gun, because if the ambassador from Esternial believes a pellet or paint gun is a topic for international law, we beg to differ.
So you need to pass a psych evaluation now to own a gun? Further who dictates the criteria to be filled by that eval? The nations, or the WA or this WAGC?

3) DECLARES that an adult, with the necessary papers, is allowed to own lethal guns

Papers? If by this you mean license you need to define the license type and scope? In Philimbesi we have several different types of license which regulate the caliber and type of gun that you may carry. It keeps hunters from owning Uzi's but allows them to own larger caliber weapons than say someone carrying for personal protection. Not a perfect solution but workable and it's helped.

So no non adult can hunt? No father son or mother daughter hunting trips?

4) AUTHORIZES the legal (restricted) sale of lethal guns by government officials.

So like post offices? Or did you want the Secretary of State to put aside her work and open a gun shop?

NOTES that any gun (lethal or not) should be kept in a safe (hidden) location, away from
children.

Any parent will tell you there is no such thing as a hidden location from a child. They get into and around the darnedest places. In my nation we require multiple locks for stored weapons, both on the cabinet and the trigger. Sentences are lengthened for failure to secure the weapon.

6) NOTES that if a crime has been commited by a legalized (lethal) gun, the owner will be trailed in court.

We are unclear on this... does this mean if my house is robbed and my gun is used by another person in another crime I'm held responsible?

5) ENCOURAGES WA nations the abide this law as strictly as possible.

In the unlikely event this passes... you don't have to encourage it.

7) FOUNDS the World Assembly Gun Committee, which shall monitor ALL gun laws

All gun laws?

[Xesum]

I agree, what is a non-lethal gun? cause even a tazer gun can be lethal

Well If I recall correctly, the definition of a gun is a lethal weapon.

[Absolvability]

Non-lethal guns? 'Normal' mental capacity? Necessary papers? Restricted? Can we be a little more specific here?

NOTES that any gun (lethal or not) should be kept in a safe (hidden) location, away from children.

While I understand the desire to keep guns away from children, isn't this clause basically saying it's completely legal (and indeed encouraged,) to conceal firearms? Again, lets be specific here.

[Grays Harbor]

so, if anybody wants to legally own a gun they must first be vetted by a committee which would be most likely populated with anti-gun zealots? criminals will get guns regardless, it will only be those who want to use them for hunting, sport shooting or self-defense who would be penalized.

this proposal makes about as much sense as Metallica asking the Wombles to open for them.

[Crookfur]

this proposal makes about as much sense as Metallica asking the Wombles to open for them.

Sounds good to me

Now as to defining some of the proposed issues put forward by the representtiive from Esternial there are a few suggestions I would like to suggest:

Leathal vs non leathal: the simpliest means of definition is to use muzzle energy. Commonly a limit of 1-1.5joules being the common limit before a "gun" regardless of propulsion mechanism is considered a firearm with all firearms beign considered "leathal" of course this doesn't tank into acount large bore, less than leathal munitions such as bean bag, baton or tazer projectiles. This is a very complex area and the representitive would do well to think very carefully about they propose here.

As to age of adulthood and "mental status" these should be left to the indidvidual state and the representitive might choose to rework thier proposal to include this freedom within the frame work.

We would also seriosuly question the sale of firearms or guns by the governemnt, whsoe role at most should concern licensing of both buyers and sellers.

[Gnoria]

2) AUTORHIZES the legal sale of non-lethal guns.

You don't need to authorize legal sales; they are already authorized by definition.

You probably mean "AUTHORIZES the sale of non-lethal guns."

Similarly,

3) DECLARES that an adult, with the necessary papers, is allowed to own lethal guns

means nothing. If you have the necessary papers to own a gun, then, yes, you are allowed to own one by definition. However, if you wanted to actually protect the right to gun ownership, you might define a maximum limit to the quantity of necessary papers.

Douglas Moore
Secy. to the WA

[Gailifrey]

Not only the government but private sector as well should have the right to sell fire arms , with the proper permits of course and a tax on the sale of lethal fire arms.

[Absolvability]

Not only the government but private sector as well should have the right to sell fire arms , with the proper permits of course and a tax on the sale of lethal fire arms.

Ooooh now, I don't know about that. Or at least I'd certainly hate to have the WA mandate such a thing. In the Rogue Nation we enjoy the right to bear arms, which seems to be the intent behind this proposal. We do NOT recognize the right to SELL firearms. At least not to the private sector. That's asking for trouble.

In the end, that particular point should be left for each nation to decide. Firearms are tools; they are not toys or tropheys. The last thing I want in my country is a huge firearm buying frenzy.

[Philimbesi]

Ooooh now, I don't know about that. Or at least I'd certainly hate to have the WA mandate such a thing. In the Rogue Nation we enjoy the right to bear arms, which seems to be the intent behind this proposal. We do NOT recognize the right to SELL firearms. At least not to the private sector. That's asking for trouble.

In the end, that particular point should be left for each nation to decide. Firearms are tools; they are not toys or tropheys. The last thing I want in my country is a huge firearm buying frenzy.

Does the public purchase firearms in State run facilities in Absolvability?

[The Palentine]

Not only the government but private sector as well should have the right to sell fire arms , with the proper permits of course and a tax on the sale of lethal fire arms.

The good but unwholesome Senator Sulla looks over at the delegate from Galifrey with a confused look on his face before asking,"
What the hell is a lethal fire arm? Hold on a minute, I think I can figure this out.......<reaches into his jacket and pulls out his Colt 1911a from a shoulder holster.> I guess this would be your definition of a lethal fire arm, <places Colt on desk, and reaches under his desk and pulls out a Super Soaker(TM)> and this would be a non-lethal fire arm."

<Shoots delegate from Galifrey with a blast of water from the squirt gun.>

[Bears Armed]

Surely it's the bullets, not the guns, that are lethal?

*(rubs stomach to show confusion)*

[North Wiedna]

This proposal doesn't make sense. It is not good form to tell the people of a government, "Your people can have guns."

"But, everybody hates us here! If we give 'em guns they'll kill us and replace us with a facist!"

"Not our problem."

[Absolvability]

Does the public purchase firearms in State run facilities in Absolvability?

The answer is probably yes, but I feel like we have developed a unique way that deserves further explaination. Military service is compulsory in the Rogue Nation. Everybody is given the option to maintain possession of their sidearm after their service is completed.

As far as automatic weaponry goes, the public does not have access. This is the way it should be. And it is so BECAUSE we do not allow private enterprises to deal lethal objects.

Surely it's the bullets, not the guns, that are lethal?

Guns don't kill people. Bullets don't kill people. People kill people.

[Philimbesi]

Guns don't kill people. Bullets don't kill people. People kill people.

Yes but the gun and bullet certainly do help don't they.

[Absolvability]

Yes but the gun and bullet certainly do help don't they.

I suppose they do. As would a knife... or a hammer, or a pencil. Perhaps we should all run our nations like huge insane asylums, abolishing anything that could possibly be used to kill. Which would scream loud and clear to all of our citizens, "HEY! You can not be trusted! We will not let you protect yourself!"

This is a bit extreme, don't you think? The proper course of action, as with most anything else, is to educate the masses. Show them how to use a gun (since a good portion of 'murders' are accidents,) and, more importantly, show them WHEN to use a gun.

Consider this, Ambassador-- that in a court of law the INTENTIONS of a supposed criminal are taken into consideration when convicting/sentencing. If it can be proven that the crime was pre-planned it will be Murder 1. If it can be proven that it was not intentional, but through an act of negligence, it will be Manslaughter. If it can be proven to be a complete accident then the person has committed no crime. (at least this is how it works in my nation)

What intentions does a gun have? What intentions does a bullet have? We can try to be clever all day... talking about 'bullets' kill people or that 'guns' sure do help. In the end it is the actuater that is solely responsible.

[Philimbesi]

Yes but the gun and bullet certainly do help don't they.

I suppose they do. As would a knife... or a hammer, or a pencil. Perhaps we should all run our nations like huge insane asylums, abolishing anything that could possibly be used to kill. Which would scream loud and clear to all of our citizens, "HEY! You can not be trusted! We will not let you protect yourself!"

This is a bit extreme, don't you think? The proper course of action, as with most anything else, is to educate the masses. Show them how to use a gun (since a good portion of 'murders' are accidents,) and, more importantly, show them WHEN to use a gun.

Consider this, Ambassador-- that in a court of law the INTENTIONS of a supposed criminal are taken into consideration when convicting/sentencing. If it can be proven that the crime was pre-planned it will be Murder 1. If it can be proven that it was not intentional, but through an act of negligence, it will be Manslaughter. If it can be proven to be a complete accident then the person has committed no crime. (at least this is how it works in my nation)

What intentions does a gun have? What intentions does a bullet have? We can try to be clever all day... talking about 'bullets' kill people or that 'guns' sure do help. In the end it is the actuater that is solely responsible.

Honored Ambassador, there is a difference between a weapon of opportunity and a weapon of purpose. Knives, hammers, and pencils all have other uses that are not involved with killing. The guns only purpose is to kill. Speak of intentions all you want, speak of protection all you want, if you are buying, possessing or using a gun you have the automatic intent, for whatever the reason, to kill something... or someone. Without the gun the job is much more difficult... possible of course... but certainly harder, and more personal. You speak of accidents, perfectly valid point, but wouldn't the absence of the weapon in the first place eliminate the possibly for such accidents? I guess though following your logic, if we eliminate the people from the area we have the same outcome. Though I would suggest that our nations would be rather boring places with just a bunch of guns laying around.

[Absolvability]

-Laughing sincerely, not at all in a mocking manner-- even still, taking more than an appropriate amount of time to regain himself,- You always make good points, Ambassador, but you DO make me laugh.

Honored Ambassador, there is a difference between a weapon of opportunity and a weapon of purpose.

Weapon of opportunity? I'm so glad you phrased it like that... giving me a chance to reply, "Necessity is the mother of invention." I suspect that if guns were abolished people would find a new preferred weapon. Don't you?

Crime existed long before guns were created. As did war. I can appreciate your comment about other weapons being more 'personal,' however, because it seems to me that there is a certain level of detachment when using projectile combat rather than melee. This is precisely why the Rogue Nation implements compulsory military service. Training is key. Knowledge is key. DISCIPLINE is key.

Entertaining the idea of abolishing ANYTHING tends to be a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

if we eliminate the people from the area we have the same outcome. Though I would suggest that our nations would be rather boring places with just a bunch of guns laying around.

-Laughing again,- Boring? Yes, but much easier to govern I suspect.

[Philimbesi]

Time has proven that there is always a weapon of choice, and that after time that weapon is replaced by one more potent than the one before it. However, if your argument is that we should keep guns because it's stopping people from creating something worse, I can't agree with that.

Compulsory vs Voluntary Military service is a topic for another debate, though I will say that I'd rather have 100 people who want to serve vs 1000 people who have to. All the training, knowledge, and discipline you can impart does nothing to stop a criminal from picking up a gun, would it cut down on accidental gun deaths... sure... however so would the total elimination of guns and that would do it more effectively... but honestly this is a top for a different set of debates.

This proposal isn't looking to eliminate them any more than it's looking to promote them. It's regulating the sale of them... and even that its doing badly.

[Absolvability]

Well, I admit that we are off topic. In fact I've been aware of it, but was letting it slide because I believe we are, however indirectly, addressing many of the concerns that people may have with this proposal.

I keep referencing compulsory military service simply because it is one of the Rogue Nation's many policies on education (however obscure and seemingly indirect,) that has benefitted us greatly.

All the training, knowledge, and discipline you can impart does nothing to stop a criminal from picking up a gun,

On the contrary, knowledge and discipline is the BEST way to deter people from lives of crime. If you perform maintenance on a machine, for example, you do not just replace the disfunctional part. You do your best to follow the problem to its origin and fix that. This is how one should fix all problems. Regardless of what Awkum's Razor(sp? lol) says, when it comes to fixing problems rather than making discoveries, the simplest option is NEVER the right one.

[Philimbesi]

On the contrary, knowledge and discipline is the BEST way to deter people from lives of crime.

Your prisons are empty then? One would assume that considering that all of your citizens are ex military and all have been taught those principals?

[Absolvability]

Your prisons are empty then? One would assume that considering that all of your citizens are ex military and all have been taught those principals?

Crime is no problem in my nation. I wish I could say it did not exist, but that is a ridiculous thought regardless of measures taken. I just don't think guns have a lot to do with it.

However, you may recall me saying that private businesses should not be selling them. I do not pretend to have some higher, totally black and white, understanding of life. One gains much wisdom when they, in fact, realize that EVERYTHING is a shade of gray. And that, again, one must look for the problem that created the problem. Otherwise we begin devolving our technologies and wondering why people aren't becoming any less violent.