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[PASSED] Repeal: "On Scientific Cooperation"

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:53 am

Merni wrote:One question:
Hulldom wrote:That this resolution fails to take into account the censorship of materials given clause 1(c)’s notation that materials may not be disseminated if they are “illegal under extant national or sub national law”. States could make parts of scientific study illegal and thus prevent the dissemination of materials from the WASP regarding the scientific consensus. Thus, the failure to consider malicious states misrepresenting scientific data undermines the goals of this resolution.

How would states "make parts of scientific study illegal and thus prevent the dissemination of materials from the WASP regarding the scientific consensus" without falling foul of 436 GA Protecting Free Expression ?

Is that part of your legality challenge that the repeal would run afoul of GA 436?
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Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:00 pm

"Repeal "On Scientific Cooperation"" was discarded by the WA for rule violations after garnering 12,953 votes in favor and 1,977 votes against. (86.76% support)

For: 12,953: Madjack (947), Amerion (793), Albrook (740), Dilber (513), Imperium Anglorum (414), Duby (285), North East Somerset (273), Primorye Oblast (257), Treadwellia (245), Budgie Snugglers (211), Luna State (199), Andusre (148), Thaelle (142), Ruinenlust (126), TESDAI (117), Tevaris (115), Bearded Dragones (114), ShrewLlamaLand (107), Lesser Velutaria (105), Sylh Alanor (81), The Glorious Hypetrain (81), South Boston Irishmen (68), Penguin Dictators (65), Enlais (61), The Salaxalans (59), Student Loan Debt (56), Brys questions (53), Octal (45), Technocratic Terra (44), Creeperopolis (43), Josephtan (42), Nulkia (41), Candensia (38), Roma Sparta (35), Yodle (33), One Small Island (32), New Asden (32), Dabberwocky (31), The Free Northern Isles (31), Sanctaria (29), Battadia (27), Sjkeji (26), Got the munchies real bad man (26), NewTexas (24), Orioni 2 (23), Owswaldia (23), Rain Delay (23), Potenzia (22), Cruciland (22), Tostandia (22), The Scottish Republic (22), Castle Federation (21), Fachumonn (20), Sailiopia (20), Americatain (19), Herya (18), Quinceria (17), Arcesius (17), Alastair McIntyre (17), Baloo Kingdom (16), Worldwide Chicago (16), Calnodia (16), Lawid (13), Niveusium (13), Candanadium (13), Calamari Lands (12), Tahmapsian Iran (12), Somersetonia (12), Ordivus (12), Oi Barbaroi (12), Vegaga (12), Draganisia (11), Orca and Narwhal (11), The Sheika (10), Satn (10), Santa Thereza (10), Kikittaukak (10), The Greastest Nation (10), The Heavenly Cross Federation (10), Albarusija (10), The Unified Pumaxi (9), Jean Rowe (9), Axorian (9), Penetration Nation (9), Zamastan (9), The Bolivian Socialist Falange (9), Seludong (9), Hydroponic Nation (9), The Hard Part (8), The Candy Of Bottles (8), The Soviet state of Svalbard (8), Trovons (8), Orennica (8), Russiania (8), Golanchia (8), Aftenheim (8), Brocklandia (8), Gatchina (8), The Voltarum (8), Chodean Kal (7), Lamoni (7), Thee Imperium 0f Man (7), Kalanaria (7), Sig Sauers (7), Edmundian Pluto (7), Yolyra 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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:02 pm

Once I got a proper replacement written, I'll move this back to draft, so if a mod comes by, I'd ask you leave this thread here and open for now.

Beyond that, I would like some clarification from PRS what clause it was precisely that needs removing. I believe it's 5, but I want to make 100% sure of that before moving forward.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:11 pm

Hulldom wrote:Once I got a proper replacement written, I'll move this back to draft, so if a mod comes by, I'd ask you leave this thread here and open for now.

Beyond that, I would like some clarification from PRS what clause it was precisely that needs removing. I believe it's 5, but I want to make 100% sure of that before moving forward.

Since Merni is the one who initiated the legality challenge (long after it was submitted), they would probably be a good source to pinpoint the exact clause.
I don't stand with Ukraine. I don't stand with Russia. I don't stand with the US, NATO, or EU. I stand with the innocent civilians being caught in the crossfire while the politicians, the media, and weapons manufacturers continue to stoke division and conflict in their geopolitical chess games and treat the people of Ukraine as mere pawns. Zelensky is a corrupt, opportunist oligarchic politician who is not fit to lead Ukraine through anything and wants to inflate his own ego and offshore accounts.

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Merni
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Postby Merni » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:39 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Hulldom wrote:Once I got a proper replacement written, I'll move this back to draft, so if a mod comes by, I'd ask you leave this thread here and open for now.

Beyond that, I would like some clarification from PRS what clause it was precisely that needs removing. I believe it's 5, but I want to make 100% sure of that before moving forward.

Since Merni is the one who initiated the legality challenge (long after it was submitted), they would probably be a good source to pinpoint the exact clause.

I was the one who challenged it first, yes. But Princess Rainbow Sparkles also challenged it (in the same thread) on different grounds. So far we don't know which one (or both) was agreed to by GenSec. To my knowledge it was clause 5 that PRS challenged, and I challenged clause 3.
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Princess Rainbow Sparkles
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Postby Princess Rainbow Sparkles » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:36 am

Hulldom wrote:Once I got a proper replacement written, I'll move this back to draft, so if a mod comes by, I'd ask you leave this thread here and open for now.

Beyond that, I would like some clarification from PRS what clause it was precisely that needs removing. I believe it's 5, but I want to make 100% sure of that before moving forward.

I don't know what the ultimate GenSec opinion will be and whether it was Merni's HM challenge or one of my three challenges that carried the Challenge decision. But given how the Challenge thread played out, I suspect that it was my challenge to Repeal Clause 5 that was found to be the HM violation. GenSec might not rule on the other challenges if that one was dispositive.

With respect to Merni and their challenge: As was discussed in the Challenge thread, there is existing GenSec precedent stating that repeals can legally point out what a resolution itself allows, even if there are other WA laws out there that might disallow that same thing. The idea is that you are still fairly and legally addressing the contents of the target resolution (see the Honest Mistake Rule) by pointing out what the target does and doesn't do, even if the argument is a very weak one because some other resolution does that thing or a new resolution could be passed to do it without requiring a repeal. SL wrote a dissent to that precedent but agreed that the precedent should be followed now that it's in place. FWIW, I also believe that your repeal can fairly "address the contents of the resolution its targeting" by pointing out how OSC seems to allow censorship based on literature member states deem "illegal under extant national or sub national law." If Merni or others believe that argument is weak because they believe other WA law prevents WA members from declaring certain published works illegal, their remedy is a counter campaign trying to convince voters that the argument is weak. Not an HM illegality.

With respect to my arguments about pseudo-science and unscientific data, I was pretty convinced by Sep and IA that those points did not merit pulling the repeal for an HM. To be candid, I raised those arguments mostly to protest and highlight an absurdity in the recent decision to find a HM violation in TB's "Repeal CPA." When GenSec found an illegality there, it was because the repeal presented a reasonable conclusion (i.e. that the burden of testing imposed by CPA would fall on the prostitutes) as a certain result of the law. Your repeal also makes claims in absolute terms about certain results: that scientific literature "includes" pseudo-scientific literature, and that unscientific data "will find its way" into the archive. If GenSec wanted to be consistent with their recent precedent, they should also find fault with claiming the OSC will result in those things. Not that I think it was great precedent, mind you. I believe it unnecessarily prevents repeal authors from addressing the content of resolutions by exaggerating their RP consequences. But that's the decision that was made...

To answer your question: I think where the repeal crossed the line was claiming in Repeal Clause 5 that there was "no mandate" on members when the target contained a provision saying "Requires all WA members to cooperate... by supplying." Basically, you went too far and misrepresented the "content" of your target by claiming there was no mandate there at all. You should be able to avoid the HM rule by softening Clause 5 to something like "The legislation presents no mandate requiring member nations to actually conduct or permit science." You could even add: "The legislation's limited mandate that member nations cooperate with WASP's archiving effort is ambiguously formatted in a way that may make it difficult to enforce." Or, of course, you could remove Clause 5 altogether.

If you wanted to be extra careful with the claims in Repeal Clause 1 and Repeal Clause 2, you could adopt Morover's approach and make them about the 'not unreasonable' possibilities, rather than the necessary outcomes. So Clause 1 could be about how the lack of a definition for scientific literature: "creates a substantial possibility that literature which fails to meet the standards of peer review and pseudo-scientific literature published in journals with low evidentiary or replicability standards could be collected into the WASP archive." Similarly, Clause 2 would be about how unscientific data "could" find its way into the archive - as opposed to how it "will" find its way - due to how the law operates. (These are minor; per my commentary above I do not think the HM challenge to Clauses 1 and 2 carried the decision; but you must be aware that describing what a resolution does in absolute terms is very dangerous given how GenSec has interpreted the HM rule recently).

Finally, I don't think you need to modify Clause 3. But check with Merni if there is something you could add to avoid them making another challenge. And, if you wanted to be extra careful with the challenge Merni raised about Clause 3, you modify it to say "Under the resolution's terms, States could make parts of scientific study illegal and thus prevent... [etc.]"
Last edited by Princess Rainbow Sparkles on Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:08 pm

Have updated the clause to remove clause 5 and use the more cautious language advocated for by PRS.

Still hopeful Merni will wander in here. Expect a replacement draft sometime around the last weekend of the month. Next weekend I'll be occupied with the Symposium and IRL stuff.
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Merni
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Postby Merni » Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:02 pm

Hulldom wrote:Have updated the clause to remove clause 5 and use the more cautious language advocated for by PRS.

Still hopeful Merni will wander in here. Expect a replacement draft sometime around the last weekend of the month. Next weekend I'll be occupied with the Symposium and IRL stuff.

wanders in What did you want to ask me? I thought my posts in the challenge thread were pretty clear on what I thought was an honest mistake.
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Postby Hulldom » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:57 am

As a note, I plan to resubmit shortly after GenSec's decision is released.
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Postby Sanctaria » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:02 am

Hulldom wrote:As a note, I plan to resubmit shortly after GenSec's decision is released.

I look forward to revisiting this topic in 2024.
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Postby Hulldom » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:18 am

Sanctaria wrote:
Hulldom wrote:As a note, I plan to resubmit shortly after GenSec's decision is released.

I look forward to revisiting this topic in 2024.

One can hope they're quicker than that! :D
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Merni
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Postby Merni » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:48 pm

Hulldom wrote:
Sanctaria wrote:I look forward to revisiting this topic in 2024.

One can hope they're quicker than that! :D

Hope springs eternal... but I wouldn't hold out too much of it :p
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Postby Bananaistan » Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:51 am

2024 looks a bit busy rn, as does 2025. Hope 2026 is good for y'all.
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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:37 am

Bananaistan wrote:2024 looks a bit busy rn, as does 2025. Hope 2026 is good for y'all.

I’d take the leap of faith if I knew how to use the API. With spending the stamps? Sure it’s like a dollar per proposal but that adds up quickly even if it is an irregular expense.
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Merni
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Postby Merni » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:08 am

Hulldom wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:2024 looks a bit busy rn, as does 2025. Hope 2026 is good for y'all.

I’d take the leap of faith if I knew how to use the API. With spending the stamps? Sure it’s like a dollar per proposal but that adds up quickly even if it is an irregular expense.

I found IA's Communique API client pretty easy to use with this guide and its own documentation. (The link to the client is in that guide.)

Edit: When I did it, though, it took about 7-8 hours to finish. You need to keep your computer on all that while. (Alternatively, since you're in TNP, someone could handle the actual running of the script for you -- if the TGID/Secret Key are the same, the telegram will still come "from" you.)
Last edited by Merni on Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:16 pm


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Postby Hulldom » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:11 pm

As a heads up on this, I am moving forward on this but I did give Primorye Oblast (Prim) my word we'd get a replacement before repeal, so currently working on that with Thousand Branches and Greater Cesnica. I intend to submit this again when we post that to the forum.
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Postby Ainocra » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:00 am

Very good, I look forward to reading it
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Hulldom
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Postby Hulldom » Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:44 pm

A replacement is officially in formal drafting, so this has been submitted.
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Postby Apatosaurus » Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:09 pm

Good luck!
Hey there! :D Have a great day!~
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:52 am

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The Europeian Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote FOR the General Assembly Resolution, Repeal: "On Scientific Cooperation".
Its reasoning may be found here.


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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Shaktirajya » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pm

Agreeing with point number 3 as mentioned in this repeal in reference to article 1(c) in the original resolution in particular, We, the People's Hindu Matriarchy of Shaktirajya, in concert with Our delegate Giovanniland, hereby vote FOR this repeal.

Vaktaha Samajavadinaha Matatantrasya Shaktirajyasya
Nota Bene: Even though my country is a Matriarchy, I am a dude.

Pro: Hinduism, Buddhism, polytheism, legalization of drugs and prostitution, free thought, sexual freedom, freedom of speech.

Anti: Intolerant Abrahamic religion, drug prohibition, homophobia and homomisia, prudery, asceticism.

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Amerion
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 172
Founded: Mar 21, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Amerion » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pm

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The South Pacific's World Assembly Delegation has cast the Coalition's vote FOR this proposed resolution, Repeal: "On Scientific Cooperation", and warmly encourages fellow member regions to vote FOR.

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Admiral Delegate General of the South Pacific

Unless otherwise stated, all posts are made in an individual capacity.

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Tinhampton
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Posts: 10343
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:09 am

Repeal "On Scientific Cooperation" was passed 13,829 votes to 1,980. (87.48% support)

For: 13,829: Madjack (1,037), Amerion (792), Albrook (759), Giovanniland (582), East Durthang (501), Imperium Anglorum (410), North East Somerset (280), Primorye Oblast (263), Treadwellia (258), Duby (255), Luna State (203), Super Awesome Fun Times (185), Andusre (140), Ruinenlust (126), Bearded Dragones (115), Tevaris (113), Apatosaurus II (105), Lesser Velutaria (103), ShrewLlamaLand (101), Sylh Alanor (95), Thousand Branches (94), The Glorious Hypetrain (93), South Boston Irishmen (80), Penguin Dictators (67), Mikeswill (61), Student Loan Debt (61), The Salaxalans (59), Vancouvia (57), Brys questions (53), Candensia (49), Technocratic Terra (47), Octal (43), Yodle (42), Tinhampton (40), New Asden (40), Josephtan (37), Particle (36), Dabberwocky (34), Roma Sparta (34), Boane (34), The Free Northern Isles (31), Battadia (31), Herya (31), Sanctaria (29), One Small Island (28), Fachumonn (27), Karteria (27), NewTexas (26), Vinslott (24), Castle Federation (24), Potenzia (24), Aynia Moreaux (23), Friskalandia (23), Owswaldia (23), Kingdom of Englands (22), Tostandia (20), Suter (20), Baloo Kingdom (18), Americatain (18), Jean Rowe (17), The Civitas Islands (16), Morover (16), Lawid (16), Khovezzem (15), The Legion of Mankind (14), Alastair McIntyre (14), Azgoghk (12), Tarakachia (12), Ordivus (12), FNU (12), Somersetonia (12), Candanadium (11), Niveusium (11), Vegaga (11), Oi Barbaroi (11), Russiania (11), Seludong (10), Draganisia (10), The Sheika (10), The Bolivian Socialist Falange (10), Zamastan (10), Satn (9), The Voltarum (9), Loush Land (9), Valator (9), Maplestan (9), Chodean Kal (8), Santa Thereza (8), The Candy Of Bottles (8), Otaku Stratus (8), Axorian (8), Brocklandia (8), Orennica (8), Gladys and the drowning fish (8), Penetration Nation (8), South Sulphur (7), Anglerland (7), The Greastest Nation (7), 15th Scottish Highlanders Division (7), Mardata (7), Uponda (7), Karliat (7), Hajirah (7), Lamoni (7), The Heavenly Cross Federation (7), Orca and Narwhal (7), The Palentine (7), Chap Ven (6), Gloriuous Mother Russia (6), The Soviet state of Svalbard (6), Golanchia (6), SorAZ (6), Trovons (6), Eggtowne (6), The Finntopian Empire (6), Yorkshire and its colonies (5), Echoslavia (5), Dellettia (5), Reultan (5), Hogstein (5), Russia Major (5), The Sovereign Kingdom of Immobilia (5), The Age of Utopia (5), Wobbegong (5), Refrigeratoria (5), Tuandle (5), Wabacha (4), The Tritonian Empire (4), Bayin (4), The Georgeian Empire (4), Nanako Island (4), Auxorii (4), Willtechia (4), The Flyin (4), Meercovo (4), Republic of Dixie (4), New Aryako Eurbadilweld (4), Farindallia (4), Government Problems (4), Eastern Kodiak (4), Voxija (4), Denathor (4), Greater Bahland (4), Communo-Slavocia (4), The Mtn Dew (3), Transylvania Company (3), China SCR (3), Herby (3), Skonlanda (3), Onocarcass (3), Vipathe (3), Agife (3), Flor-Fina (3), Free Woritanarbio Islands (3), Jeradise (3), Republic of Washinton (3), Jawsrael (3), Kleinekatzen (3), The Union of Scandinavian Syndicates (3), Quentania (3), Barak Khalad (3), Kigasan (3), The Germanic States of Europe (3), Madrocea (3), Arab Darussalam (3), Uptt (3), Kernstrom (3), Dow Salold Islands (3), Winfallow (3), Yesmanland (3), Stavinaga (3), His Excellency (3), Scenixia (3), Rhondels (3), Harmony Cafe (3), Amenistani Empire (3), East Thule (3), Zachtia (3), Fickonong (3), Always Winners (3), Desertiania (2), Nebulisia (2), Nickystein (2), Tsaivao (2), The Ancient World (2), Menorca and Southeast Spain (2), The United Remnants of America (2), Prussia-Saxon (2), Mackiland (2), Fsdh E (2), The Hazar Amisnery (2), Leiustedec (2), Banaria (2), Atreidean Arrakis (2), Krezenel (2), Seffa (2), Among us land sus cool (2), Gombia (2), KurentSlavija (2), Ontarra (2), Messens (2), Gonzlandia (2), Gabeonovia (2), The Free Bobilandia (2), NinjitsUtopia (2), Zombiedolphins (2), The United Provinces of North America (2), Adeiatic (2), Prodstrazka (2), Egalitarian Falkands (2), The Rising Aura (2), The Poor Peoples Republic (2), The Free Republican Union (2), Bjancia (2), West Pottsylvania (2), Driasau (2), The Andoran Empire ELARIA (2), Phaialee (2), Jacobopolus (2), Chiakki (2), Wallstone (2), West Axeton (2), Shnrubton (2), Namias (2), Rexez (2), Caylood Hype (2), GEN COPE (2), Southeast Marajarbia (2), Schworgistan (2), Leafblowers (2), East Lago (2), The Democratic Nordic Countries (2), United Lammunist Republic (2), Finema (2), Romulus III (2), Foreignaid (2), Goatia (2), Kingdom of Derita (2), Bunbun Country (2), Wisea (2), Leavens (2), Engloscots (2), FORKTASTICSTAN (2), RB8 (2), DPRK1953 (2), Lacmhacarh (2), Fillipopolis (2), Brazil FS (2), Greater Fiet Luncharia (2), Barrow Cove (2), GraySoap (2), Arkkine (2), Paragonica (2), Whitemore (2), Sedgistan (2), Davelands (2), New Amoni (2), Shaenus (2), San Teodoro de Haro (2), Czechostan (2), Draconae (2), The Akasha Colony (2), Boarder Princes (2), Zecrond (2), Fantoche pax (2), Reverencia (2), West Cornia (2), Playball758 (2), America 3D (2), Hisslandia (2), Vetoland (2), Tzarkonian (2), Supreme Argentum (2), Making Catgirls Real (2), Greater Eireann (2), CRGC (2), Trans Furries (2), CVT Greater Peru (2), Vaarland (2), and (4,921) individual member nations.

Against: 1,980: Wischland (464), Enlais (62), Glorious Wakanda (51), Alesina (23), Ecclestia (20), Cruciland (19), Calnodia (16), Ioavollr (15), The Unified Pumaxi (13), Tarkov (11), Kikittaukak (9), Atlantian Oceania (9), New Delfos (7), Nordors (7), Alonzavia (7), Libertarian Communist Planets (6), Klean Kanteen (6), Aelythium (6), Wadelhelpia (6), GoodKingWenceslas (6), Smiley Bob (6), Gatchina (5), The Infernal Steakhouse (5), Oxfordheim (5), The Order of Makai (5), Assurat (4), Xagea (4), The Communists of the Multiversal Empire (4), Heloin (4), Ze Faderland (4), Quebec and Labrador (3), Eolandi (3), Xaviet empire (3), Pirate Nation of Nassau (3), 11 Templar Knights (3), United Corporate States (3), United Dependencies (3), Socialist Amogus (3), New Michael Federation Republic (2), Ravko (2), Spaviland (2), Ostatlantik (2), The United Hyvanian States (2), Benjyville (2), Dexian (2), Sollenyatrov (2), Kadth (2), The papal county of Derbyshire (2), Darambo (2), Galaxiak (2), Of savages12345 (2), The Grand Republic of New Prussia (2), Union of Noovistian (2), Lower Slobbovia (2), Infusvia (2), Rabinia (2), Islands Of Ventro (2), Antamaran (2), AlloPeroi (2), Smart duds (2), Siochania (2), Verlos (2), Llucaria (2), Graet (2), Novaya Ukraina (2), Britannia1 (2), Zarnicovia nova (2), Dreadful Hole (2), Lehqhbraot (2), South Douthres Avinietaus (2), Oldenmark (2), Deezer (2), and (1,079) individual member nations.
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607
Other achievements: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; Philosopher-Queen of Sophia; possibly very controversial; *author of the most popular WA resolution ever
Who am I, really? 46yo Tory woman w/Asperger's; Cambridge graduate; currently reading nothing much

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