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[AT VOTE] Access to Life-Ending Services

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Ayytaly
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Founded: Feb 08, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ayytaly » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:46 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:If you make a resolution on abortion, would you put [PRO-LIFERS WILL OPPOSE THIS]?

First glance, should be a good replacement for the resolution IA will repeal.


Depending on whether or not the state proposing it is fascist, as it can be argued that eugenics is at play.
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The Python
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Python » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:16 pm

Sylh Alanor wrote:
The Python wrote:Uh, yes. What if euthanasia is provided in, say, a hospital, but the doctor tasked with it has a conscencious objection? In that case, the obvious solution would be to send a different doctor without an objection to do the euthanasia.

I take this to mean you don't intend the proposal in the way I interpreted (a medical speciality for euthanasia and life-ending services).

At least what I was intending was that it could be provided in either medical specialties or along with other medical services, for example, in hospitals.

Bananaistan wrote:
... that are free for the patient and paid for by the government of said member nations ...


"Not an issue so much in Bananaistan considering our universal healthcare system in which people pay in through the tax system according to their means. But ultimately there is no such thing as a free lunch and this would ultimately take money from parts of health services dedicated to making people live longer and direct it into "health" services that literal kill people. This is bad. Opposed. Those who can afford to pay should be obliged to pay if that's how a country sets out their health services in other respects."

More like health services that relieve pain and suffering that cannot even be cured.
See more information here.

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Bananaistan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bananaistan » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:24 pm

The Python wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:"Not an issue so much in Bananaistan considering our universal healthcare system in which people pay in through the tax system according to their means. But ultimately there is no such thing as a free lunch and this would ultimately take money from parts of health services dedicated to making people live longer and direct it into "health" services that literal kill people. This is bad. Opposed. Those who can afford to pay should be obliged to pay if that's how a country sets out their health services in other respects."

More like health services that relieve pain and suffering that cannot even be cured.

"Come now Ambassador. The fundamental point is that there are many unfortunate members of the international proletariat who live in so called liberal democracies who do not have properly functioning health services who have to deal with prioritising scarce resources all the time. It is not in their interests to forgo treatment for their ingrown toenail because the WA told the state to spend all the money killing some millionaire who could have afforded to pay for killing himself."
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The Python
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Python » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:26 pm

Bananaistan wrote:
The Python wrote:More like health services that relieve pain and suffering that cannot even be cured.

"Come now Ambassador. The fundamental point is that there are many unfortunate members of the international proletariat who live in so called liberal democracies who do not have properly functioning health services who have to deal with prioritising scarce resources all the time. It is not in their interests to forgo treatment for their ingrown toenail because the WA told the state to spend all the money killing some millionaire who could have afforded to pay for killing himself."

Well, millionares shouldn't exist and theoretically they would get higher taxes so...
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:28 pm

"This proposal will receive full support from Untecna, Ambassador."
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:31 pm

The Python wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:"Come now Ambassador. The fundamental point is that there are many unfortunate members of the international proletariat who live in so called liberal democracies who do not have properly functioning health services who have to deal with prioritising scarce resources all the time. It is not in their interests to forgo treatment for their ingrown toenail because the WA told the state to spend all the money killing some millionaire who could have afforded to pay for killing himself."

Well, millionares shouldn't exist and theoretically they would get higher taxes so...

"Millionaires do exist and generally control these so called liberal democracies I referred to. I can't see how allowing member states to charge people who can afford to pay for stuff is a bad thing or would hurt your overall aims here. If you're unwilling to change this fundamentally unsocialist funding mechanism and profligate universal killing benefit, we will have no choice but to oppose this."
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The Python
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Python » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:24 pm

Bananaistan wrote:
The Python wrote:Well, millionares shouldn't exist and theoretically they would get higher taxes so...

"Millionaires do exist and generally control these so called liberal democracies I referred to. I can't see how allowing member states to charge people who can afford to pay for stuff is a bad thing or would hurt your overall aims here. If you're unwilling to change this fundamentally unsocialist funding mechanism and profligate universal killing benefit, we will have no choice but to oppose this."

Ok, here's a proposed change that I'm looking on feedback for before including it:
Requires that member states provide euthanasia services that are free for the patient and paid for by the government of said member nations if they cannot be afforded by the patient;

Mandates that member states provide free and government-paid travel to a clinic that provides euthanasia services if euthanasia services are not accessible nearby and cannot be afforded by the patient;
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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:54 pm

"Coercion to euthanize should remain legal, Ambassador."

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:50 pm

"The author needs to dramatically reduce passive voice to earn our vote."

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The Python
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Postby The Python » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:03 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"The author needs to dramatically reduce passive voice to earn our vote."

Great Algerstonia wrote:"Coercion to euthanize should remain legal, Ambassador."

~Admiral-Ambassador Alec Ainsworth.

Why is that necessary?
Image
Last edited by The Python on Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:27 am

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"The author needs to dramatically reduce passive voice to earn our vote."

Great Algerstonia wrote:"Coercion to euthanize should remain legal, Ambassador."

~Admiral-Ambassador Alec Ainsworth.

Why is that necessary?
Image

"Because quality matters, ambassador. And right now the quality of your writing is poor."

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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:57 am

""Mandates that members do X" is a perfectly reasonable formula that has been going here since this assembly was founded."
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Head of delegation and the Permanent Representative: Comrade Ambassador Theodorus "Ted" Hornwood
General Assistant and Head of Security: Comrade Watchman Brian of Tarth
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:37 am

Bananaistan wrote:""Mandates that members do X" is a perfectly reasonable formula that has been going here since this assembly was founded."

" Indeed, ambassador. And if the author did so with active voice, we would see improvements in clarity and concision."

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Heavens Reach
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Heavens Reach » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:30 pm

Kurogasa wrote:
Heavens Reach wrote:
When we use words, ambassador, we try to remember that they have definitions. For example, "communist" does not mean "everyone too far left for me" even though that's how you're using it.


Much like you don't have to be a "right-winger" to oppose something.


I'm not sure what you mean, ambassador. I've never seen "right-winger" used as a catch-all for someone who opposes something

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Danceria
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Postby Danceria » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:33 pm

I'm simply here to say one thing:

Eugenics.

And refuse to elaborate any further, but hope the persons herein can understand why not every rightwinger may oppose this.
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Kurogasa
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Postby Kurogasa » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:48 pm

Heavens Reach wrote:
Kurogasa wrote:
Much like you don't have to be a "right-winger" to oppose something.


I'm not sure what you mean, ambassador. I've never seen "right-winger" used as a catch-all for someone who opposes something


Have you seen the title of the proposal?...

And if you go for that, then I have never heard "communist" to mean "someone on the left"...I have heard it for communists.

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Great Algerstonia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Great Algerstonia » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:23 pm

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"The author needs to dramatically reduce passive voice to earn our vote."

Great Algerstonia wrote:"Coercion to euthanize should remain legal, Ambassador."

~Admiral-Ambassador Alec Ainsworth.

Why is that necessary?
Image

"It is medical policy to immediately euthanize all patients if it has been determined that they are unable to pay for the medical services Algerstonia Hospitals provide for them. Once they have outlived their usefulness, termination is necessary."

~CEO Gray Gaines, in a bored and monotone voice.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06 pm

"How to show you are in violation of the Patients Rights Act"

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The Python
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Python » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:12 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
The Python wrote:
Why is that necessary?
(Image)

"Because quality matters, ambassador. And right now the quality of your writing is poor."

What's wrong with passive voice, and also where is there? I can't see anything in passive voice other than "... may not be forced to perform ...
Great Algerstonia wrote:
The Python wrote:Why is that necessary?
(Image)

"It is medical policy to immediately euthanize all patients if it has been determined that they are unable to pay for the medical services Algerstonia Hospitals provide for them. Once they have outlived their usefulness, termination is necessary."

~CEO Gray Gaines, in a bored and monotone voice.

Image
Last edited by The Python on Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:01 am

The Python wrote:Hereby:
  1. Defines “euthanasia” as the killing of a patient, wheren:
    1. the patient has provided verifiable, informed consent to the operation,
    2. the operation is completely painless,
    3. the patient has an incurable, terminal illness, and
    4. the operation is assisted by a medical professional,
  2. Requires that member states provide euthanasia services that are free for the patient and paid for by the government of said member nations states;
  3. Mandates that member states provide free, and government-paid travel to a clinic that provides euthanasia services if euthanasia services are not accessible nearby to a patient;
  4. Bans any government discrimination or penalties against recipients of euthanasia, medical professionals aiding in euthanasia, or the heirs thereof, or the families thereof of recipients of or medical professionals aiding in euthanasia, inculding, but not limited to, discrimination in tax,
  5. EnforcesDictates that member states ban any form of coercion, whether by other persons or the government, for a patient to seek euthanasia, and
  6. Clarifies that any medical professional that expresses a bona fide moral objection against euthanasia may not be forced to perform euthanasia as long as they direct the patient to easily and readily accessible euthanasia services.

Co-authored by [nation=long]Imperium Anglorum[/nation]

OOC: Some suggestions to improve the writing in the proposal. I will, however, remain opposed to any attempt at legalising assisted suicide.
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Heavens Reach
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Heavens Reach » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:14 am

Kurogasa wrote:
Heavens Reach wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean, ambassador. I've never seen "right-winger" used as a catch-all for someone who opposes something


Have you seen the title of the proposal?...

And if you go for that, then I have never heard "communist" to mean "someone on the left"...I have heard it for communists.


So, ambassador, you're backtracking on tacitly acknowledging that you have, of course, obviously heard "communist" as a derogative catch-all for "too far left," because I do not concede that the title of this forum is somehow implying that "right-winger" is a catch-all for someone who opposes something, which, again, is obviously not the meaning of its use here. I'm not sure if "I'm rubber; you're glue" is the winning argument you think it is, ambassador, especially considering that your argument hinges on the interpretation of one forum topic, whereas the derogative, overly broad application of "communist" is widespread amongst those who detest (or pretend to detest for their own benefit) left-wing philosophy and praxis.

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The Python
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Python » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:21 pm

Heavens Reach wrote:
Kurogasa wrote:
Have you seen the title of the proposal?...

And if you go for that, then I have never heard "communist" to mean "someone on the left"...I have heard it for communists.


So, ambassador, you're backtracking on tacitly acknowledging that you have, of course, obviously heard "communist" as a derogative catch-all for "too far left," because I do not concede that the title of this forum is somehow implying that "right-winger" is a catch-all for someone who opposes something, which, again, is obviously not the meaning of its use here. I'm not sure if "I'm rubber; you're glue" is the winning argument you think it is, ambassador, especially considering that your argument hinges on the interpretation of one forum topic, whereas the derogative, overly broad application of "communist" is widespread amongst those who detest (or pretend to detest for their own benefit) left-wing philosophy and praxis.

The title is just a joke smh.
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Alright.

Regarding passive voice: I've tried to remove as much as possible :P
See more information here.

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Kurogasa
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Postby Kurogasa » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:55 pm

Heavens Reach wrote:
Kurogasa wrote:
Have you seen the title of the proposal?...

And if you go for that, then I have never heard "communist" to mean "someone on the left"...I have heard it for communists.


So, ambassador, you're backtracking on tacitly acknowledging that you have, of course, obviously heard "communist" as a derogative catch-all for "too far left," because I do not concede that the title of this forum is somehow implying that "right-winger" is a catch-all for someone who opposes something, which, again, is obviously not the meaning of its use here. I'm not sure if "I'm rubber; you're glue" is the winning argument you think it is, ambassador, especially considering that your argument hinges on the interpretation of one forum topic, whereas the derogative, overly broad application of "communist" is widespread amongst those who detest (or pretend to detest for their own benefit) left-wing philosophy and praxis.


I didn't backtrack, do you have any examples of "communist" not being used to refer to communists?.

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Postby Goobergunchia » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:00 pm

Enough with the off-topic discussion about classifying people's political views.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:47 pm

I would rephrase to something like the following. I don't think there are any major changes to any of the clauses; I attempted to keep them as similar in requirement as possible.

The General Assembly,

Resolving that individuals should have the legal right to end their lives if they are in agony from an incurable illness,

Believing that any possible dangers resulting from a "slippery slope" in legalising euthanasia do not outweigh the right to end one's life on one's own terms,

Noting that it is thus necessary to establish pro-euthanasia measures in the General Assembly, enacts as follows:

  1. In this resolution, "euthanasia" is the killing of a patient when:
    1. the patient has provided verifiable informed consent to the operation,
    2. the operation is completely painless,
    3. the patient has an incurable terminal illness, and
    4. a medical professional assists in the operation.
  2. Member nations must provide euthanasia services to patients free of charge at government expense. In areas where euthanasia services are not locally accessible, member nations must arrange and pay for patients residing in those areas to travel to a clinic that provides euthanasia services.

  3. No member nations may discriminate against euthanasia recipients, the families thereof, or medical professionals aiding in euthanasia, including but not limited to discrimination in tax.

  4. No person, or member nation, may coerce a patient to seek euthanasia.

  5. A medical professional that expresses a bona fide moral objection against euthanasia may not be forced to perform euthanasia, provided that the professional directs patients to easily and readily accessible euthanasia services.

Co-authored by [nation=long]Imperium Anglorum[/nation]



I think clearer standards are needed re the sections on coercion and "locally accessible".
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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