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[PASSED] Access to Life-Ending Services

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Harmonious Collective
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Apr 20, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Harmonious Collective » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:58 pm

The Harmonious Collective submits its' thoughts on this submission as follows:

First, we would like to applaud the sovereign nation of Apatosaurus on an admirable and well-pondered submission on a quite sensitive and important topic. Our following concerns are presented not as a slight on the wisdom of creating formal legislation on this issue, nor the motives of the submitting nation. We do, however, have concerns with the idea of medically assisted suicide as mandated policy on the following bases:

While we appreciate and applaud the effort of placing the burden of suicide on the state in whatever form it takes rather than on the individual, we question the efficacy of the following article,

'No person, group of persons, or member state may deliberately coerce or require an individual to seek or receive assisted suicide. Similarly, it is prohibited for any person, group of persons or member state to deliberately coerce or require an individual against seeking or receiving assisted suicide.'

The Assembly of Regional Communes questions how sweepingly the term 'deliberate' applies to various forms of state violence and neglect upon the predominant subject of medically assisted suicide — the elderly and disabled. It is worth noting that in both state and private care, disabled patients and in particular those of marginalized racial and economic backgrounds are subject to harsh abuse by medical staff and care providers. This means persons who are sick or disabled but would otherwise live worthwhile and good lives with adequate care are subject to physical and psychological torture that goes far beyond the pain they experience in their day-to-day lives as part of their physiological conditions. We believe it is a valid concern to raise while already many states are complicit in the social murder of their disabled populace through systematic neglect, providing a more perceptibly compassionate method of ending their lives to relieve their perceived 'burden' on the private and state health systems in turn risks those who — even with the addendum of 'informed consent' — may see their conditions as part of the information that leads to their decision to consent to medically assisted suicide. In such a case, is it suicide? Or is it social murder? This is a problem we feel this piece of legislation fails to address with such a small portion of the legislation assigned to acknowledging the potential risk of coercion.

We realize this doesn't provide an alternative, and we regret not being able to address this issue with enough time as to allow for a revision of this proposal. Any alternative that we would view positively would disallow assisted suicide in any country that, after independent investigation of the medical and care system that obtained testimony from both professionals and in particular patients, proved to be harming the health — either physically or psychologically — of disabled and/or marginalized patients. This, or being accompanied by legislation that outlined and mandated measures for disabled patients that addressed systematic neglect and ableism within the medical and care system. As it stands, we welcome a response that alleviates our concerns, but for now we are voting no and advise other nations do the same.

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Mombourg
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Posts: 3
Founded: Nov 14, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Vote No

Postby Mombourg » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:34 pm

Mombourg encourages opposition to the measure, Access to Life-Ending Services, for the following reasons:

1. The failure of the measure to exclude children.
2. The right of nations to not participate.
3. The “slippery slope” whereby elderly and disabled lives are less valued.
4. The failure of nations to provide adequate palliative care.
5. The right of medical professionals to decide as a group that they will not violate their oaths.

In our opinion this measure is irredeemably flawed, and should be wholeheartedly discouraged.

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Apatosaurus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 944
Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:51 pm

Harmonious Collective wrote:-snip-

OOC: I think this is a valid point, honestly, and I sympathise with your arguments. However, I think that systematic discrimination in healthcare is better dealt with in a separate resolution, as healthcare discrimination has a much wider scope than merely assisted suicide.




Mombourg wrote:1. The failure of the measure to exclude children.

GAR#299

Mombourg wrote:2. The right of nations to not participate.

Good.
Mombourg wrote:3. The “slippery slope” whereby elderly and disabled lives are less valued.

Yeah, this is just a slippery slope logical fallacy.
Mombourg wrote:4. The failure of nations to provide adequate palliative care.

They already will as per Reasonable Nation Theory and GAR#582.
Mombourg wrote:5. The right of medical professionals to decide as a group that they will not violate their oaths.

Section 7

+ ratio
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Amerion
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Posts: 177
Founded: Mar 21, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Amerion » Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:26 pm

Image

The South Pacific's World Assembly Delegation has cast the Coalition's vote FOR this proposed resolution, Access To Life-Ending Services, and warmly encourages fellow member regions to vote FOR.

Image
Admiral General of the South Pacific

Unless otherwise stated, all posts are made in an individual capacity.

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Sigfridia
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 12, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Sigfridia » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:40 am

The Principality of Sigfridia will oppose this resolution on the grounds that no human can request the ending of their own lives without already being under duress, and as such is unable to make any sound and rational decisions by themselves. Being it mental or biological illness these all have a profound negative impact on the rational decision making of humans and as such they can not truly consent to their lives being ended.

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Berusturg
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Founded: Nov 22, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Berusturg » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:41 am

The Federation of Berusturg votes For this proposal


Our Federatives agree with this proposal's take on assisted suicide and believe that while there are valid and invalid issues with this proposal, they consider them small enough to be patched up with the country's own laws or be completely ignored. They also plan to start a prototype of this proposal in the provinces of North and South Bymia and Bigrad once it reaches resolution status.
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Shaktirajya
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Posts: 164
Founded: Mar 22, 2013
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Shaktirajya » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:36 pm

We, the People's Hindu Matriarchy, believe that every individual is the master of their own life, and as such have a right to dispose of said life as they see fit. Another individual, not being the subject of a suffering patient's subjective experience, cannot decide for others what they should do with their lives (unless they hold 'power-of-attorney' granted to them by said patient, etc). It is for this reason mentioned aforesaid that We must vote FOR this resolution.

We additionally commend the proposing nation for quickly and efficiently drafting this resolution after the repeal of the previous 'Assisted Suicide' legislation.

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Caymarnia
Bureaucrat
 
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Founded: Nov 19, 2015
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Caymarnia » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:19 pm

We find that the resolution covers the bases to our satisfaction, especially given the debate during the repeal of the previous measure.

Following this afternoon's vote of the National Council of the People's Will, Caymarnia adds its vote for the resolution.
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Aingard
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: Feb 17, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aingard » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:18 pm

Right Honourable Members of the WA,

I’m considering one major problem with 1)a)v, “verifiable, informed consent”. Firstly, does this only mean verbal or signed writing consent? If so, then there’s a problem. This resolution is meant for “incurable serious physical illness”, one could argue that being in a coma is from a serious illness, or for some reason their brain isn’t working well, that would render this patient unable to provide verbal or signed consent. My grandfather is in relatively good health but weak, he can not speak nor sign, imagine what a patient in serious physical illness couldn’t do. Those who cannot communicate nor do much with their hands due to illness may very well seek assisted suicide, but couldn’t, and this resolution would leave this critical mass of patients out.

What can this resolution do to help patients who cannot provide verbal or signed consent?

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Apatosaurus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 944
Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:39 pm

Aingard wrote:Right Honourable Members of the WA,

I’m considering one major problem with 1)a)v, “verifiable, informed consent”. Firstly, does this only mean verbal or signed writing consent? If so, then there’s a problem.

No, it can be any form of "consent", as long as it can be verified.

Aingard wrote:This resolution is meant for “incurable serious physical illness”, one could argue that being in a coma is from a serious illness, or for some reason their brain isn’t working well, that would render this patient unable to provide verbal or signed consent. My grandfather is in relatively good health but weak, he can not speak nor sign, imagine what a patient in serious physical illness couldn’t do. Those who cannot communicate nor do much with their hands due to illness may very well seek assisted suicide, but couldn’t, and this resolution would leave this critical mass of patients out.

If they can provide consent through any means that is not verban or written, that is consent. If they are unable to provide consent at that time, however, that is what Section 6 is for.
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Aingard
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Founded: Feb 17, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Aingard » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:11 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:No, it can be any form of "consent", as long as it can be verified.


What sort of consent is proposed, if not verbal or signed?

Apatosaurus wrote:If they are unable to provide consent at that time, however, that is what Section 6 is for.


I'm considering a scenario of a sudden life changing experience, like a car crash. They don't see it coming, and so cannot give consent to have assisted suicide in case of a life-threatening car crash, thus making them ineligible for it even if they want it.

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Apatosaurus
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Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:48 pm

Aingard wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:No, it can be any form of "consent", as long as it can be verified.


What sort of consent is proposed, if not verbal or signed?

Here cites some examples of alternative forms of consent; for example "ticking an opt-in box on paper or electronically", or "selecting from equally prominent yes/no options" may be possible methods of informed consent in this situation.

Aingard wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:If they are unable to provide consent at that time, however, that is what Section 6 is for.


I'm considering a scenario of a sudden life changing experience, like a car crash. They don't see it coming, and so cannot give consent to have assisted suicide in case of a life-threatening car crash, thus making them ineligible for it even if they want it.

If they cannot or have not communicated in any way that they want assisted suicide, then they have not and cannot provided informe consent, and thus it isn't assisted suicide, and is probably murder.
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Maanaim
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Founded: Jan 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Maanaim » Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:52 am

Greetings to all the most excellent heads of state.

The Mahanaim Community vehemently rejects the proposed resolution as a clear and flagrant affront to the sovereignty of nations.
Each nation has its specificities and worldview and therefore has the right to define its legislation in accordance with the principles and values of its society.
Life is a fundamental right and can be debated at the international level, however the right to death involves many other issues that should never be the subject of a global resolution because it confronts the culture of many peoples and nations, which are free to determine their laws.
Therefore, given the facts, we are against the Proposal for access to end-of-life services.

Respectfully,
Mr. Carlo C. Ayres
Community of Mahanaim

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Xanthorrhoea
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Posts: 251
Founded: Aug 22, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Xanthorrhoea » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:41 am

Maanaim wrote:Greetings to all the most excellent heads of state.

The Mahanaim Community vehemently rejects the proposed resolution as a clear and flagrant affront to the sovereignty of nations.
Each nation has its specificities and worldview and therefore has the right to define its legislation in accordance with the principles and values of its society.
Life is a fundamental right and can be debated at the international level, however the right to death involves many other issues that should never be the subject of a global resolution because it confronts the culture of many peoples and nations, which are free to determine their laws.
Therefore, given the facts, we are against the Proposal for access to end-of-life services.

Respectfully,
Mr. Carlo C. Ayres
Community of Mahanaim


I always love how this argument is (almost) always invoked on issues the person making it disagrees with. Where were you when the other 500+ resolutions that also limit nations’ sovereignty were passed? Literally every resolution is an affront to nations’ sovereignty. That’s rather the point of the WA.

Edit: I am aware that this particular nation was only just founded, but the sentiment in general stands (especially as this is a very standard objection to most resolutions), and as pointed out by Untecna below, it does beg the question: why join in the first place?
Last edited by Xanthorrhoea on Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Untecna
Negotiator
 
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Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:45 am

Xanthorrhoea wrote:
Maanaim wrote:Greetings to all the most excellent heads of state.

The Mahanaim Community vehemently rejects the proposed resolution as a clear and flagrant affront to the sovereignty of nations.
Each nation has its specificities and worldview and therefore has the right to define its legislation in accordance with the principles and values of its society.
Life is a fundamental right and can be debated at the international level, however the right to death involves many other issues that should never be the subject of a global resolution because it confronts the culture of many peoples and nations, which are free to determine their laws.
Therefore, given the facts, we are against the Proposal for access to end-of-life services.

Respectfully,
Mr. Carlo C. Ayres
Community of Mahanaim


I always love how this argument is (almost) always invoked on issues the person making it disagrees with. Where were you when the other 500+ resolutions that also limit nations’ sovereignty were passed? Literally every resolution is an affront to nations’ sovereignty. That’s rather the point of the WA.

It's always "Oh, this violates my sovereignty! I can't vote for it!"

Why do they join the WA, I don't know.
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Apatosaurus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 944
Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:34 am

Maanaim wrote:Greetings to all the most excellent heads of state.

The Mahanaim Community vehemently rejects the proposed resolution as a clear and flagrant affront to the sovereignty of nations.
Each nation has its specificities and worldview and therefore has the right to define its legislation in accordance with the principles and values of its society.
Life is a fundamental right and can be debated at the international level, however the right to death involves many other issues that should never be the subject of a global resolution because it confronts the culture of many peoples and nations, which are free to determine their laws.
Therefore, given the facts, we are against the Proposal for access to end-of-life services.

Respectfully,
Mr. Carlo C. Ayres
Community of Mahanaim

"If nations like yours did not try to prohibit or reduce access to euthanasia, this resolution would not be necessary. Thank you for proving the necessity of this resolution."

OOC: Anyway...
Access to Life-Ending Services was passed 12,074 votes to 3,707.


Thanks to everyone who gave feedback and helped make it better, everyone who supported this at vote, right-wingers (and Wayneactia) for providing amusing replies here (engaging has never not been great), and of course IA for co-authoring.
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maanaim
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Founded: Jan 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Maanaim » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:31 pm

I started playing this game this month. I cannot be compelled to agree to laws I have not been able to debate.

As for the other answers to my question, you have no arguments to counter. It is a fact that such a resolution is an unnecessary intrusion into a sensitive domestic issue.

In this game we have republics, monarchies and even psychotic dictatorships because each nation has its principles and I think that must be respected. We have many other more important issues to worry about than that.
Last edited by Maanaim on Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tinfect
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Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:42 pm

Maanaim wrote:I started playing this game this month. I cannot be compelled to agree to laws I have not been able to debate.


OOC:
World Assembly resolutions are binding on all Member-States regardless of when they were passed.
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Maanaim
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: Jan 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Maanaim » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:45 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Maanaim wrote:I started playing this game this month. I cannot be compelled to agree to laws I have not been able to debate.


OOC:
World Assembly resolutions are binding on all Member-States regardless of when they were passed.


I understand because of that I'm not contesting past decisions for now. I just want to register my opposition to this resolution.

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Untecna
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5523
Founded: Jun 02, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:46 pm

Maanaim wrote:I started playing this game this month. I cannot be compelled to agree to laws I have not been able to debate.

As for the other answers to my question, you have no arguments to counter. It is a fact that such a resolution is an unnecessary intrusion into a sensitive domestic issue.

In this game we have republics, monarchies and even psychotic dictatorships because each nation has its principles and I think that must be respected. We have many other more important issues to worry about than that.

Welcome to the World Assembly, bud. Upon joining, you give up your "right" to have all the national sovereignty you want so that the resolutions, voted on and made by members of the Assembly, can take immediate effect. I am compelled to believe that you have not even considered all other resolutions doing exactly the same, and if you have, you are sorely mistaken that it is wrong.

As for these "many more issues" you have mentioned, what are they? What is more important than this

Edit: Further, I question why people join such an international body, knowing full well that it makes laws that bind its members regardless of how long ago they were passed, or who made them, and then argue "but... muh, muh national sovereignty".
Last edited by Untecna on Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Apatosaurus
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Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:50 pm

lol @ this discussion

As Untecna and Tinfect said, the World Assembly has passed hundreds of resolutions that enforce things in member states. This is just one of those, about a topic that is relatively important for member states to follow. If you really oppose this, you can always try to repeal it.
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Maanaim
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: Jan 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Maanaim » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:02 pm

Untecna wrote:
Maanaim wrote:I started playing this game this month. I cannot be compelled to agree to laws I have not been able to debate.

As for the other answers to my question, you have no arguments to counter. It is a fact that such a resolution is an unnecessary intrusion into a sensitive domestic issue.

In this game we have republics, monarchies and even psychotic dictatorships because each nation has its principles and I think that must be respected. We have many other more important issues to worry about than that.

Welcome to the World Assembly, bud. Upon joining, you give up your "right" to have all the national sovereignty you want so that the resolutions, voted on and made by members of the Assembly, can take immediate effect. I am compelled to believe that you have not even considered all other resolutions doing exactly the same, and if you have, you are sorely mistaken that it is wrong.

As for these "many more issues" you have mentioned, what are they? What is more important than this

Edit: Further, I question why people join such an international body, knowing full well that it makes laws that bind its members regardless of how long ago they were passed, or who made them, and then argue "but... muh, muh national sovereignty".


Thank you very much for the welcome. I understand and accept the legality of World Assembly resolutions. The big issue is that I have the right to disagree and defend my point of view.
I haven't read all the resolutions yet. I'm starting with the most recent ones and I already disagree with some and naturally I'll put my point of view.

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Maanaim
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 9
Founded: Jan 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Maanaim » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:03 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:lol @ this discussion

As Untecna and Tinfect said, the World Assembly has passed hundreds of resolutions that enforce things in member states. This is just one of those, about a topic that is relatively important for member states to follow. If you really oppose this, you can always try to repeal it.


and truth. We will certainly try!

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Apatosaurus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 944
Founded: Jul 17, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:09 pm

Maanaim wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:lol @ this discussion

As Untecna and Tinfect said, the World Assembly has passed hundreds of resolutions that enforce things in member states. This is just one of those, about a topic that is relatively important for member states to follow. If you really oppose this, you can always try to repeal it.


and truth. We will certainly try!

Good luck, and note that the evil and corrupt World Assembly Elite may try to suppress it :P
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