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[PASSED] Access to Life-Ending Services

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Port Ames
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Founded: Dec 23, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Port Ames » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:35 pm

I have a couple of questions and thoughts.

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 2 wrote:Member nations must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction seeking assisted suicide. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.

Why should assisted suicide be free? I'm not familiar with extant WA law, so I don't know if other resolutions require that this be the case for other medical procedures (would love some clarity on that). If it's not required of medical procedures more generally by other resolutions, what makes assisted suicide special? I'm under the impression that assisted suicide is quite expensive: Dignity in Dying (a UK advocacy group for the "right to die") notes that "The cost of an assisted death in Switzerland [where many Britons go to receive assisted suicide] is, for many, prohibitively expensive. Based on our calculations it costs anywhere between £6,500 to over £15,000 to have an assisted death in Zurich..." While this could be an argument for making assisted suicide free in some countries, surely there must be other countries that have bigger public health concerns? A poor nation battling an epidemic may not be able to afford to make assisted suicide free to people when they currently struggle to maintain health infrastructure as is.

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 1.a.ii wrote:the recipient has an incurable medical condition, whether mental or physical, that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and

Our delegation isn't comfortable with the broadness of this clause, particularly with regards to mental illness. Many people with mental illnesses may indeed see their quality of life deteriorated in a way they consider substantial and in a way that's permanent. We note that reductions in quality of life for those with mental illness often come as a consequence of intense social stigma, and the same is true of those with developmental conditions. Port Ames is committed to fighting ableism in all its forms, and we're worried that this clause slips into unintentional ableism because it's so overbroad.

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 4 wrote:No person, group of persons, or member nation may deliberately pressure, coerce or require an individual to seek or receive assisted suicide. Similarly, it is prohibited for any person, group of persons or member nation to deliberately coerce an individual against seeking or receiving assisted suicide.

What counts as "coercion" here? What should count as "coercion" here? It may seem straightforward at first, but perhaps an example would help. Every year, the State of Oregon releases reports on the implementation of its Death with Dignity Act, a bill that legalized assisted suicide statewide. 53.1% of patients in Oregon expressed concern that they were "a burden on their friends and family members." A smaller contingent expressed concerns about the "financial implications of treatment." (6.1%) Do either of these qualify as coercion? These matters aren't simple enough to be legislated away with the word "coerce": the coercion that most anti-euthanasia advocates are concerned about is often much subtler.

Another note, on the question of coercion. This will also tie back into Clause 2's provision that all assisted suicide treatments be covered for free by the government. Unless there's extant WA law on this point (let me know if there is!), passing this resolution results in a situation whereby assisted suicide would be free but continued medical treatment may not be. Is this not a form of financial coercion for some low-income folks?

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 6 wrote:A medical professional that has publicly communicated a bona fide objection against performing assisted suicide, without external coercion or incentives, may not be required to perform assisted suicide if, and only if, that professional refers patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily, and locally accessible assisted suicide services.

What qualifies as "external coercion or incentives"? Let's take the example of an observant Catholic doctor, for instance. I use that example because of this clause's massive intersection with questions about the obligations of Catholic hospitals, in the US and beyond. It's possible that a Catholic who performs assisted suicides would be in a state of mortal sin, in which that person would not be able to receive Communion. Communion is, of course, a big deal to observant Catholics, who consider it the literal body and blood of Jesus and all that jazz.

Is the Church "coercing" doctors in Catholic hospitals to not perform euthanasia? Probably (even if those same doctors also have bona fide objections as well!). That means that this resolution possibly requires Catholic doctors with religious objections to euthanasia still perform euthanasia anyways, kind of defeating the point of the resolution. We're uncomfortable with this and believe that the clause's protections should be broadened.

We're also of the opinion that there isn't much of a reason for this clause to exist if you're still going to require doctor's with bona fide objections to "refer patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily, and locally accessible assisted suicide services." Doctors will still be asked to violate the dictates of their conscience: it feels highly unlikely to me that conservative doctors would be not okay with providing assisted suicide directly, but would willingly refer patients to someone else who can do it. That is to say, I don't get why this clause is in here as currently written: if you wanted doctors to violate their consciences to perform euthanasia, why would you bother with a "bona fide objections" clause at all? Conversely, if you didn't want doctors to violate their consciences to perform euthanasia, why do you require that they do so anyways?

We understand the delegate's urge to ensure that there's a sufficient supply of doctors to perform a procedure they consider vital to end of life care. Port Ames trusts that this will happen with or without a conscience clause. For evidence, we once again turn to Oregon, which doesn't require objecting doctors to refer patients to doctors who will perform assisted suicide. Assisted suicide is alive and well (apologies for the arguably distasteful pun) in Oregon: the number of DWDA deaths has increased steadily and substantially since the Act's implementation. We urge the authoring delegation to reword the clause in question as follows:

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 6, amendments in strike wrote:A medical professional that has publicly communicated a bona fide objection against performing assisted suicide, without external coercion or incentives, may not be required to perform assisted suicide. if, and only if, that professional refers patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily, and locally accessible assisted suicide services.

Ultimately, we're neutral on this draft. We understand the arguments that have prompted this resolution, and we can empathize with them. That said, euthanasia is a complicated and controversial issue in Port Ames, and our government doesn't want to give the impression that we're on one side or another. Our delegation represents all of our citizens. Even if that's the case, we of course hope our comments help and wish the authoring delegation the best of luck in their endeavours.
Last edited by Port Ames on Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:51 pm

/OOC
Port Ames wrote:I have a couple of questions and thoughts.

Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 2 wrote:Member nations must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction seeking assisted suicide. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.

Why should assisted suicide be free? I'm not familiar with extant WA law, so I don't know if other resolutions require that this be the case for other medical procedures (would love some clarity on that).

At least one resolution already does so (I disagree with that resolution on principle, but for other reasons).

Port Ames wrote:If it's not required of medical procedures more generally by other resolutions, what makes assisted suicide special?

Because some nations (hmmmmmmmmmm) decide that they will not provide assisted suicide or will just make it ridiculously expensive.


It should not be expensive. This will make sure that it is not.

Port Ames wrote:While this could be an argument for making assisted suicide free in some countries, surely there must be other countries that have bigger public health concerns? A poor nation battling an epidemic may not be able to afford to make assisted suicide free to people when they currently struggle to maintain health infrastructure as is.

One of the main points of this proposal is to ensure that assisted suicide is free. However, I have added a provision in Clause 8 which allows the WA General Fund to fund assisted suicide if that member-state is unable to without serious damage to their economy.

Port Ames wrote:
Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 1.a.ii wrote:the recipient has an incurable medical condition, whether mental or physical, that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and

Our delegation isn't comfortable with the broadness of this clause, particularly with regards to mental illness. Many people with mental illnesses may indeed see their quality of life deteriorated in a way they consider substantial and in a way that's permanent. We note that reductions in quality of life for those with mental illness often come as a consequence of intense social stigma, and the same is true of those with developmental conditions. Port Ames is committed to fighting ableism in all its forms, and we're worried that this clause slips into unintentional ableism because it's so overbroad.

Hmm, this is a good point. After thinking on it I have axed the provision allowing for euthanasia of individuals that have a serious mental illness, and instead leave that up to member-states and/or a future resolution.

Port Ames wrote:
Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 4 wrote:No person, group of persons, or member nation may deliberately pressure, coerce or require an individual to seek or receive assisted suicide. Similarly, it is prohibited for any person, group of persons or member nation to deliberately coerce an individual against seeking or receiving assisted suicide.

What counts as "coercion" here? What should count as "coercion" here? It may seem straightforward at first, but perhaps an example would help. Every year, the State of Oregon releases reports on the implementation of its Death with Dignity Act, a bill that legalized assisted suicide statewide. 53.1% of patients in Oregon expressed concern that they were "a burden on their friends and family members." A smaller contingent expressed concerns about the "financial implications of treatment." (6.1%) Do either of these qualify as coercion? These matters aren't simple enough to be legislated away with the word "coerce": the coercion that most anti-euthanasia advocates are concerned about is often much subtler.

"Coercion to recieve assisted suicide"? Blackmail, threats of force, etc.. However, you will find that it says "no [individual] may deliberately pressure, coerce or require ...". If an individual has no mens rea, then it does not count for the purposes of that clause.

Port Ames wrote:Another note, on the question of coercion. This will also tie back into Clause 2's provision that all assisted suicide treatments be covered for free by the government. Unless there's extant WA law on this point (let me know if there is!), passing this resolution results in a situation whereby assisted suicide would be free but continued medical treatment may not be. Is this not a form of financial coercion for some low-income folks?

GAR#582 Access to Effective Medications.

Port Ames wrote:
Access to Life-Ending Services, Clause 6 wrote:A medical professional that has publicly communicated a bona fide objection against performing assisted suicide, without external coercion or incentives, may not be required to perform assisted suicide if, and only if, that professional refers patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily, and locally accessible assisted suicide services.

What qualifies as "external coercion or incentives"? Let's take the example of an observant Catholic doctor, for instance. I use that example because of this clause's massive intersection with questions about the obligations of Catholic hospitals, in the US and beyond. It's possible that a Catholic who performs assisted suicides would be in a state of mortal sin, in which that person would not be able to receive Communion. Communion is, of course, a big deal to observant Catholics, who consider it the literal body and blood of Jesus and all that jazz.

Is the Church "coercing" doctors in Catholic hospitals to not perform euthanasia? Probably (even if those same doctors also have bona fide objections as well!). That means that this resolution possibly requires Catholic doctors with religious objections to euthanasia still perform euthanasia anyways, kind of defeating the point of the resolution. We're uncomfortable with this and believe that the clause's protections should be broadened.

If "you will go to Hell if you perform assisted suicide" is coercion, I'm not sure what isn't. Moreover, I do not imagine that happening as an "observant Catholic doctor" wishing to respect God is a bona fide objection.

Port Ames wrote:We're also of the opinion that there isn't much of a reason for this clause to exist if you're still going to require doctor's with bona fide objections to "refer patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily, and locally accessible assisted suicide services." Doctors will still be asked to violate the dictates of their conscience: it feels highly unlikely to me that conservative doctors would be not okay with providing assisted suicide directly, but would willingly refer patients to someone else who can do it. That is to say, I don't get why this clause is in here as currently written: if you wanted doctors to violate their consciences to perform euthanasia, why would you bother with a "bona fide objections" clause at all? Conversely, if you didn't want doctors to violate their consciences to perform euthanasia, why do you require that they do so anyways?

To avoid reducing access to life-ending services (get it? :P). They are not providing, accessing, or assisting in assisted suicide. They are merely directing individuals to it. If I, for example, was a doctor and had to provide an abortion (since I generally lean anti-abortion), there is no way that I would provide an abortion, but I would be happy to direct patients to where to recieve abortions. If conscienciously objecting doctors were permitted to refuse to direct their patients to assisted suicide if they won't do it, that creates an unreasonable burden on patients that may result in them being unable to recieve assisted suicide.

Port Ames wrote:We understand the delegate's urge to ensure that there's a sufficient supply of doctors to perform a procedure they consider vital to end of life care. Port Ames trusts that this will happen with or without a conscience clause. For evidence, we once again turn to Oregon, which doesn't require objecting doctors to refer patients to doctors who will perform assisted suicide. Assisted suicide is alive and well (apologies for the arguably distasteful pun) in Oregon: the number of DWDA deaths has increased steadily and substantially since the Act's implementation.

This is... cherrypicking one example of many. For example, in New Zealand (where I live in real life) conscienciously objecting doctors are required to tell the person they have the right to ask the SCENZ Group for the name and contact details of a medical practitioner who is willing to participate in assisted dying. This is a reasonable restriction designed to ensure access to assisted suicide.
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Port Ames
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Postby Port Ames » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:15 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:At least one resolution already does so (I disagree with that resolution on principle, but for other reasons).

Apatosaurus wrote:Because some nations (hmmmmmmmmmm) decide that they will not provide assisted suicide or will just make it ridiculously expensive.

Interesting. So it seems the WA considers abortion to be the type of procedure that's worthy of being universally accessible, free of cost. If I'm understanding correctly, the delegate believes that euthanasia should be free because it's more controversial. We can buy that controversial procedures are worthy of special protection, but I'm not convinced that requiring they be free at the point of service is the right way to afford that protection. If the authoring delegation wants euthanasia to be a procedure accessible just like any other medical procedure, then they shouldn't create a situation where everything else costs money, but euthanasia is free. An example of what that text might look like is as follows:

Access to Life-Ending Services, proposed Clause 2 wrote:Member nations must provide eligible patients seeking assisted suicide in their jurisdictions with financially and physically accessible means of obtaining it. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, member nations must provide, as necessary, assistance for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.

I believe this text is preferable for two reasons. Firstly, it allows member nations who make healthcare procedures accessible without making them "free" to apply the same standard to euthanasia. Secondly, it prevents member nations from having to pay to euthanize the very rich. The top 1% shouldn't have their healthcare subsidized by the taxes of working-class folks.

Apatosaurus wrote:It should not be expensive. This will make sure that it is not.

I should have clarified. I mean to say that if the procedure itself is expensive, then shifting the burden for paying for an expensive procedure onto individual nations will cost a lot of money. This poses a substantial financial burden that might be better shifted elsewhere. That's the crux of my point here: the authoring delegation hasn't, in my view, sufficiently made the case that assisted suicide access is so important that we should require member nations to make this significant financial effort, when that effort could be put into, say, vaccine distribution.

Apatosaurus wrote:"Coercion to recieve assisted suicide"? Blackmail, threats of force, etc.. However, you will find that it says "no [individual] may deliberately pressure, coerce or require ...". If an individual has no mens rea, then it does not count for the purposes of that clause.

My question was at least somewhat leading: it was designed to make the point that many "coercive" behaviors fall outside of the scope of this resolutions current regulations. It remains plausible that this resolution requires member nations to legalize euthanasia under at least some "coercive" situations. It's a situation where the word "coerce" has a very narrow (probably too narrow) legal meaning that doesn't comport to popular conceptions of what's coercive and what's not.

Apatosaurus wrote:Hmm, this is a good point. After thinking on it I have axed the provision allowing for euthanasia of individuals that have a serious mental illness, and instead leave that up to member-states and/or a future resolution.

Thank you for adopting this change. It's greatly appreciated.

Apatosaurus wrote:GAR#582 Access to Effective Medications.

This does somewhat alleviate our delegation's concern. We remain moderately concerned however, insofar as GAR#582 doesn't require any particular medication to be free. It's very much plausible to have a situation where people can afford life-extending medicine while maintaining an adequate standard of living, but where it's still a stretch to do so. Our delegation believes that if euthanasia and its alternatives are both allowed, they should be held on equal footing. One should not be financially penalized for choosing one route of care over the other, and a situation whereby euthanasia is free but its alternatives aren't necessarily entails (comparatively) financially penalizing those who do not seek assisted suicide. Do you see what I mean?

Apatosaurus wrote:If "you will go to Hell if you perform assisted suicide" is coercion, I'm not sure what isn't. Moreover, I do not imagine that happening as an "observant Catholic doctor" wishing to respect God is a bona fide objection.

Ah. I see. Sorry for the confusion here. My brain is a bit fried right now.

Apatosaurus wrote:Moreover, I do not imagine that happening as an "observant Catholic doctor" wishing to respect God is a bona fide objection.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

Apatosaurus wrote:To avoid reducing access to life-ending services (get it? :P). They are not providing, accessing, or assisting in assisted suicide. They are merely directing individuals to it. If I, for example, was a doctor and had to provide an abortion (since I generally lean anti-abortion), there is no way that I would provide an abortion, but I would be happy to direct patients to where to recieve abortions. If conscienciously objecting doctors were permitted to refuse to direct their patients to assisted suicide if they won't do it, that creates an unreasonable burden on patients that may result in them being unable to recieve assisted suicide.

Interesting position. I am under the impression that a lot of doctors wouldn't feel okay with that. So there's a Type I versus Type II error judgement here: you want to minimize the burden on patients receiving assisted suicide (prevent Type II error) and you want to respect the conscience rights of physicians (prevent Type I error). So I guess the difference between our positions is one of where to draw the line. I see.

Apatosaurus wrote:This is... cherrypicking one example of many. For example, in New Zealand (where I live in real life) conscienciously objecting doctors are required to tell the person they have the right to ask the SCENZ Group for the name and contact details of a medical practitioner who is willing to participate in assisted dying. This is a reasonable restriction designed to ensure access to assisted suicide.

I think you've missed what I was going for here. I'm not trying to say that the policy you propose is out of line with other regions that have legalized euthanasia. Rather, I mean to say that assisted suicide is alive and well in places that don't require referrals like that. Basically saying that you're not reducing Type II error that much with this policy. That's all.

Apologies if anything in here doesn't make sense. It's been a busy couple of days, and I am very very very tired. That said, I appreciate your engagement. This raises a lot of interesting issues.
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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:16 pm

/OOC

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:At least one resolution already does so (I disagree with that resolution on principle, but for other reasons).

Apatosaurus wrote:Because some nations (hmmmmmmmmmm) decide that they will not provide assisted suicide or will just make it ridiculously expensive.

Interesting. So it seems the WA considers abortion to be the type of procedure that's worthy of being universally accessible, free of cost. If I'm understanding correctly, the delegate believes that euthanasia should be free because it's more controversial. We can buy that controversial procedures are worthy of special protection, but I'm not convinced that requiring they be free at the point of service is the right way to afford that protection. If the authoring delegation wants euthanasia to be a procedure accessible just like any other medical procedure, then they shouldn't create a situation where everything else costs money, but euthanasia is free. An example of what that text might look like is as follows:

Access to Life-Ending Services, proposed Clause 2 wrote:Member nations must provide eligible patients seeking assisted suicide in their jurisdictions with financially and physically accessible means of obtaining it. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, member nations must provide, as necessary, assistance for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.

I believe this text is preferable for two reasons. Firstly, it allows member nations who make healthcare procedures accessible without making them "free" to apply the same standard to euthanasia. Secondly, it prevents member nations from having to pay to euthanize the very rich. The top 1% shouldn't have their healthcare subsidized by the taxes of working-class folks.

I disagree with the first point, but I do agree with the second, so I used this:
Member states must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction seeking assisted suicide, unless said eligible patient is able to afford such without posing a substancial burden to their finances were it not funded by that member state. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, member states must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services, unless said eligible patient is able to afford such without posing a substancial burden to their finances were it not funded by that member state.

EDIT: I also generally believe that all healthcare should be free, not just youth in Asia ;)

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:It should not be expensive. This will make sure that it is not.

I should have clarified. I mean to say that if the procedure itself is expensive, then shifting the burden for paying for an expensive procedure onto individual nations will cost a lot of money. This poses a substantial financial burden that might be better shifted elsewhere. That's the crux of my point here: the authoring delegation hasn't, in my view, sufficiently made the case that assisted suicide access is so important that we should require member nations to make this significant financial effort, when that effort could be put into, say, vaccine distribution.

Does the new Section 8 address this, and if not, why?

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:"Coercion to recieve assisted suicide"? Blackmail, threats of force, etc.. However, you will find that it says "no [individual] may deliberately pressure, coerce or require ...". If an individual has no mens rea, then it does not count for the purposes of that clause.

My question was at least somewhat leading: it was designed to make the point that many "coercive" behaviors fall outside of the scope of this resolutions current regulations. It remains plausible that this resolution requires member nations to legalize euthanasia under at least some "coercive" situations. It's a situation where the word "coerce" has a very narrow (probably too narrow) legal meaning that doesn't comport to popular conceptions of what's coercive and what's not.

True, but the regulation also isn't just on "coercion". The regulation states that individuals (or groups or member states etc.) may not deliberately "pressure, coerce or require" to engage in assisted suicide.

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:GAR#582 Access to Effective Medications.

This does somewhat alleviate our delegation's concern. We remain moderately concerned however, insofar as GAR#582 doesn't require any particular medication to be free. It's very much plausible to have a situation where people can afford life-extending medicine while maintaining an adequate standard of living, but where it's still a stretch to do so. Our delegation believes that if euthanasia and its alternatives are both allowed, they should be held on equal footing. One should not be financially penalized for choosing one route of care over the other, and a situation whereby euthanasia is free but its alternatives aren't necessarily entails (comparatively) financially penalizing those who do not seek assisted suicide. Do you see what I mean?

Ah, that's an interesting point, I'll bring this up with the co-author :)

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:To avoid reducing access to life-ending services (get it? :P). They are not providing, accessing, or assisting in assisted suicide. They are merely directing individuals to it. If I, for example, was a doctor and had to provide an abortion (since I generally lean anti-abortion), there is no way that I would provide an abortion, but I would be happy to direct patients to where to recieve abortions. If conscienciously objecting doctors were permitted to refuse to direct their patients to assisted suicide if they won't do it, that creates an unreasonable burden on patients that may result in them being unable to recieve assisted suicide.

Interesting position. I am under the impression that a lot of doctors wouldn't feel okay with that. So there's a Type I versus Type II error judgement here: you want to minimize the burden on patients receiving assisted suicide (prevent Type II error) and you want to respect the conscience rights of physicians (prevent Type I error). So I guess the difference between our positions is one of where to draw the line. I see.

Pretty much, really. My position is that the conscience rights of doctors should be respected as long as it does not significantly burden recipients of assisted suicide, and that allowing them to refuse to direct them to assisted suicide services will burden recipients of assisted suicide.

Port Ames wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:This is... cherrypicking one example of many. For example, in New Zealand (where I live in real life) conscienciously objecting doctors are required to tell the person they have the right to ask the SCENZ Group for the name and contact details of a medical practitioner who is willing to participate in assisted dying. This is a reasonable restriction designed to ensure access to assisted suicide.

I think you've missed what I was going for here. I'm not trying to say that the policy you propose is out of line with other regions that have legalized euthanasia. Rather, I mean to say that assisted suicide is alive and well in places that don't require referrals like that. Basically saying that you're not reducing Type II error that much with this policy. That's all.

Yeah, now that you're saying that I see where you're coming from, I just think that it will burden access to assisted suicide to allow doctors to refuse to direct patients to assisted suicide services, but I still see why you would disagree.
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Simone Republic » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:45 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:
Simone Republic wrote:My personal suggestion would be for the words "assisted suicide" to be replaced with "death with dignity" or another term that does not involve legal implications in terms of suicide (for example, insurance). This is the rationale for the Oregon and Washington State statues.

Hm, you have a point, but I think "death in dignity" seems like really strange wording in context? For example, "performing death with dignity" sounds ridiculous in my opinion (no offense). It used to be "euthanasia", but people in the WA server commented that euthanasia is slightly different to assisted suicide, so...

Anyway, I poked IA about submitting the repeal now.


I am aware that you will need a lot of linguistics acrobatics on this, but the Oregon statues (which were very carefully drafted) use "participation in the Death with Dignity Act". So a physician is for example "participating in DWDA" and a pharmacist may be "filling a prescription for participation in DWDA".

One of the major reasons for this is to avoid older life insurance policies having pay out isssues. Also to avoid denial of claim, the underlying cause of death is stated as the terminal illness. For example, if someone has some form of incurable cancer X, the cause of death is listed as "cancer X", not "assisted suicide" or "participation in DWDA". Also avoids a lot of stigmatization issues in certain cultures with assisted suicide.
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Postby Apatosaurus » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:41 pm

Simone Republic wrote:One of the major reasons for this is to avoid older life insurance policies having pay out isssues.

OOC: I do not see how renaming assisted suicide would fix this? A life insurance company can still discriminate based on that they recieved assisted suicide or similar.

Simone Republic wrote:Also to avoid denial of claim, the underlying cause of death is stated as the terminal illness. For example, if someone has some form of incurable cancer X, the cause of death is listed as "cancer X", not "assisted suicide" or "participation in DWDA". Also avoids a lot of stigmatization issues in certain cultures with assisted suicide.

OOC: Also not sure how changing the cause of death would prevent denail of claim, honestly. Even if the cause of death is listed as "cancer X" not "assisted suicide", an insurance provide can still have denial of claim because they recieved assisted suicide.
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Postby Tinhampton » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:37 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:8. The World Assembly General Fund shall fund Section 2 services in a member-state upon request by that member-state, if the member-state in question is unable to pay for Section 2 services without serious damage to their economy.

When would s2 funding ever cause "serious damage to [an] economy?" (And more to the point, is this only being included because IA complained in his repeal that the WA cannot provide this sort of funding while GA#285 remains?)
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Postby Cows say moo 1 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:43 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:8. The World Assembly General Fund shall fund Section 2 services in a member-state upon request by that member-state, if the member-state in question is unable to pay for Section 2 services without serious damage to their economy.

When would s2 funding ever cause "serious damage to [an] economy?" (And more to the point, is this only being included because IA complained in his repeal that the WA cannot provide this sort of funding while GA#285 remains?)

It could cause "serious damage to [an] economy" in poorer countries. I added that after discussing with IA as per this:
Port Ames wrote:I should have clarified. I mean to say that if the procedure itself is expensive, then shifting the burden for paying for an expensive procedure onto individual nations will cost a lot of money. This poses a substantial financial burden that might be better shifted elsewhere. That's the crux of my point here: the authoring delegation hasn't, in my view, sufficiently made the case that assisted suicide access is so important that we should require member nations to make this significant financial effort, when that effort could be put into, say, vaccine distribution.


(I'm on a puppet, can't be bothered to switch :P)

That said, I have reworked that section a bit:
Member states must fund all Section 2 services and travel such that they are free for the recipient, unless the individual recieving such travel or services can already afford such without posing a substantial burden to their finances. The World Assembly General Fund may also fund assisted suicide services if a member-state is unable to do so without causing serious damage to their economy or finances.
Last edited by Cows say moo 1 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Simone Republic
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Postby Simone Republic » Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:57 am

Apatosaurus wrote:
Simone Republic wrote:One of the major reasons for this is to avoid older life insurance policies having pay out isssues.

OOC: I do not see how renaming assisted suicide would fix this? A life insurance company can still discriminate based on that they recieved assisted suicide or similar.

Simone Republic wrote:Also to avoid denial of claim, the underlying cause of death is stated as the terminal illness. For example, if someone has some form of incurable cancer X, the cause of death is listed as "cancer X", not "assisted suicide" or "participation in DWDA". Also avoids a lot of stigmatization issues in certain cultures with assisted suicide.

OOC: Also not sure how changing the cause of death would prevent denail of claim, honestly. Even if the cause of death is listed as "cancer X" not "assisted suicide", an insurance provide can still have denial of claim because they recieved assisted suicide.


I am grossly simplifying here.

That varies considerably from country to country, and in the case of the US, from state to state, as insurance laws are mostly exclusively state matter. In some cases, depending on contestability requirements, even straight suicide is covered by insurance, while other states/countries do not.

For example, the Washington State act implementing Death with Dignity explicitly states that:

"A qualified patient’s act of ingesting medication to end his or her life in a humane and dignified manner shall not have an effect upon a life, health, or accident insurance or annuity policy.”
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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:55 pm

Simone Republic wrote:
Apatosaurus wrote:OOC: I do not see how renaming assisted suicide would fix this? A life insurance company can still discriminate based on that they recieved assisted suicide or similar.


OOC: Also not sure how changing the cause of death would prevent denail of claim, honestly. Even if the cause of death is listed as "cancer X" not "assisted suicide", an insurance provide can still have denial of claim because they recieved assisted suicide.


I am grossly simplifying here.

That varies considerably from country to country, and in the case of the US, from state to state, as insurance laws are mostly exclusively state matter. In some cases, depending on contestability requirements, even straight suicide is covered by insurance, while other states/countries do not.

For example, the Washington State act implementing Death with Dignity explicitly states that:

"A qualified patient’s act of ingesting medication to end his or her life in a humane and dignified manner shall not have an effect upon a life, health, or accident insurance or annuity policy.”

Hmm, true, I'm just thinking that it would fall under Clause 4? i.e. it is essentially requiring that they do not receive assisted suicide to receive said life/health/accident insurance.
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Postby Apatosaurus » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:46 pm

Last edited by Apatosaurus on Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:37 pm

I'm for, and this may be overly pedantic, but isn't the proposal technically illegal for contradiction until the repeal goes through? Just wondering what the impetus is for submitting now, rather than in 7 hours.


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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:40 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:I'm for, and this may be overly pedantic, but isn't the proposal technically illegal for contradiction until the repeal goes through? Just wondering what the impetus is for submitting now, rather than in 7 hours.

It's 6 PM then here and I was initially planning on submitting then, but I likely will not be able to do so and also to have more time to campaign.
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Postby WayNeacTia » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:08 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:I'm for, and this may be overly pedantic, but isn't the proposal technically illegal for contradiction until the repeal goes through? Just wondering what the impetus is for submitting now, rather than in 7 hours.

It was under the old ruleset. Not sure now. I guess we'll see what GenSec says, or if they just ignore it and let it slide seeing as how the repeal is guaranteed to pass.
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Milorum
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Postby Milorum » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:55 am

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The Europeian Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends a vote FOR the General Assembly Resolution, "Access To Life-Ending Services"".
Its reasoning may be found here.

Greater Cesnica's Europeian nation.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:00 am

Attempted Socialism wrote:I'm for, and this may be overly pedantic, but isn't the proposal technically illegal for contradiction until the repeal goes through? Just wondering what the impetus is for submitting now, rather than in 7 hours.

You can still pass a replacement and then go for the repeal after. It's not how it's usually done, but it works.
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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:31 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:I'm for, and this may be overly pedantic, but isn't the proposal technically illegal for contradiction until the repeal goes through? Just wondering what the impetus is for submitting now, rather than in 7 hours.

You can still pass a replacement and then go for the repeal after. It's not how it's usually done, but it works.

Not if said replacement contradicts, as was the case here, or substantially duplicates the resolution that is being repealed. But my question is moot since this resolution wasn't held or anything else that could impede it.


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Paragon Utopia
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Postby Paragon Utopia » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:02 pm

This would have our support, but Article 1 includes a definition of an eligible candidate as being able to *biologically die." It appears to specifically exclude synthetic persons, denying them the same rights. As a nation partially of AI citizenry, we can't endorse this as written.

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Amnesty International
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Postby Amnesty International » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:29 pm

Would this resolution require nations to provide assisted suicide to prisoners (esp. those serving life sentences)?

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Apatosaurus
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Postby Apatosaurus » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:34 pm

Amnesty International wrote:Would this resolution require nations to provide assisted suicide to prisoners (esp. those serving life sentences)?

"Yes. A right is not a right if some individuals do not receive that right."

Paragon Utopia wrote:This would have our support, but Article 1 includes a definition of an eligible candidate as being able to *biologically die." It appears to specifically exclude synthetic persons, denying them the same rights. As a nation partially of AI citizenry, we can't endorse this as written.

OOC: AI do not necessarily have "life", and as such cannot "die"; rather they would simply "stop functioning". They also cannot necessary gain a "physical illness", so I'm confused about the problem. The main point of that provision is also so that a hypothetical immortal society, which would not be unreasonable to roleplay as, can comply with this resolution.
Last edited by Apatosaurus on Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amnesty International
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Postby Amnesty International » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:38 pm

Apatosaurus wrote:
Amnesty International wrote:Would this resolution require nations to provide assisted suicide to prisoners (esp. those serving life sentences)?

"Yes. A right is not a right if some individuals do not receive that right."

Curious.

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Minskiev
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Postby Minskiev » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:19 pm

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The Rejected Realms World Assembly Office recommends a vote AGAINST “Access to Life-Ending Services”.
Recommendation | Voting Thread

The proposed resolution, “Access to Life-Ending Services”, would replace GA#285, the recently-repealed Assisted Suicide Act. It intends to require all members to legalize assisted suicide (AS), avoid imposing burdening restrictions on access to AS, generally fund both AS services and travel to receive them elsewhere, make sure that AS is always consensual, and allow for healthcare workers to conscientiously object to AS under certain conditions.

Although legalizing AS may be a worthy goal of the WA, this proposal does not effectively do so.
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The Adeptorum
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Postby The Adeptorum » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:39 pm


THE ADMINISTRATUM OF THE MOST HOLY EMPEROR
OFFICE FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW AND COMPLIANCE
OFFICE FOR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS



Date: 27/01/2022

This Holy Empire considers the present ballot as being another unfortunate push to approve a defeated earlier proposal. In any case, considering our National history and values this Administratum will not only cast a vote against this Proposal, but is ready to support any repeal presented against it. Even more:

    1. Considering that the Empire do not have any private universities or schools and that the entirety of the Imperial Collegium is under His Holiness sole authority, this Empire is confident that all healthcare-workers in our territories will refrain from providing such services in the form presented in this proposal as their vows already require them to not end lives in such a manner. As this proposal do not require the current rule to be changed, His Holiness has no intentions in doing so.

    2. All foreigners seeking to work in positions on this Holy Empire are screened by an especial commission instated by the Office for Home Affairs. This is not going to change.

    3. His Holiness shall put the control of the required services under the authority of the Assembly of High Lords, composed of the leaders of all spiritual organizations in the Empire (including those that are agnostic or atheist).

    4. In those cases where the Empire shall pay for the expenses of such services in foreign countries, any costs will be subtracted from the donations sent to the WA General Fund in a ratio of 2:1 (two deductions for one expense).

We believe in a system that allows citizens, their communities, and their doctors to decide which course of action to take. Spiritual organizations that believe in one's right to end their own life already provide such services under their own expenses and it doesn't make any logical sense for the Estate to provide a redundant system, creating a financial obligation that drains money from other matters that are much more important to our Holy Empire. The above policies will be enforced not only to guarantee our compliance, but to make sure that our internal system for such matters do not change as we do not believe such alterations are in the best interest of our citizens.

In Lux Pariter!
Democratic Absolutism | "One Shall Rule for The Good of All" | In Lux Pariter!



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Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State
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Postby Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:14 pm

The Representatives of the Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State hereby present this letter from Tito Vargas y Morrison, President of The Republican State of Tropico.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the International-Multiversal Community, my dear friends,

When in the course of historical events, it became expedient in some areas for Tropico to enter into membership in the organization known as the world assembly, the Tropican people understood that there would be a need for constant vigilance against the imposition of ideas that most Tropicans would recognize as morally intolerable.

It has come to pass, over the years, that decency, restraint, and respect for sovereignty has been boiled away, bit by bit, as though the World Assembly was an untended pot of sauce on the stove. In recognition of the eminence of intolerable impositions against the Tropican understanding of liberty as distinct from license to achieve comfort by means that disregard what is true, good, and beautiful, the Government of Tropico hereby...



1. Establishes offshore rock 512 as the sovereign and independent territory of "The Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State."
2. Establishes for itself the legal right to appoint and revoke citizenship to the same.
3. Accepts responsibility from the same to appoint its government from among its citizenry.
4. Leaves the World Assembly and disestablishes contact with the WA Compliance Commission.
5. Establishes all sitting members of the Tropican World Assembly delegation as citizens of "The Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State"
6. Acknowledges that "The Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State" has joined the World Assembly as a voting member.
7. Condemns all existing or upcoming anti-life measures imposed by the World Assembly on its member nations.

With a heavy heart,

Tito

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Apatosaurus
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Apatosaurus » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:20 pm

Tropican World Assembly Delegatory State wrote:-snip-

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