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by Simone Republic » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:32 am
by Apatosaurus » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:44 pm
Simone Republic wrote:My personal suggestion would be for the words "assisted suicide" to be replaced with "death with dignity" or another term that does not involve legal implications in terms of suicide (for example, insurance). This is the rationale for the Oregon and Washington State statues.
by Tinhampton » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:01 am
by Apatosaurus » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:20 am
Tinhampton wrote:While I still don't support this, I do have some concerns with your actual text - none of which have anything to do with Article 7 whatsoever.
- Near-silence on the assisted suicide of non-eligible patients: Article 3, despite requiring that members "provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction," says nothing about whether or not non-eligible patients are allowed to receive assisted suicide. Even Article 6's requirement that "[n]o person, group of persons, or member nation may deliberately pressure an individual to seek, recieve or undergo assisted suicide" does not prevent such entities from just forcing assisted suicide onto any patient they like - eligible or not - without asking their permission or giving them any warning (and therefore pressuring them).
- Those who assist the assisted suicide of even non-eligible patients cannot be prosecuted: Article 1 defines assisted suicide as "the ending of a life of a sapient patient," and Article 3 requires only that members "provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction" (as defined in Article 2).
However, Article 5 forbids "prosecuting persons for... assisting in assisted suicide," even if they assisted with the assisted suicide of a person who is not an eligible patient according to Article 2. This would allow "medical professionals" who assist with the assisted suicide of non-eligible patients - including patients who refuse to give their consent to receiving assisted suicide, have been pressured pursuant to Article 6, or are suffering from nothing more serious than a broken toe - to get away with flagrantly illegal, or at least immoral (even to a liberal atheist), acts.
- In this resolution, “assisted suicide” is the ending of the life of a sapient patient, where:
- The procedure is assisted by a medical professional trained in assisting in assisted suicide,
- The procedure is fast, and free from extreme pain or agony inflicted on the recipient,
- The recipient has an incurable medical condition, whether mental or physical, that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and
- The recipient has provided verifiable, informed consent on their own free will to the procedure and method thereof (where they are fully aware of what they are consenting to, all significant consequences, and any possible alternatives); this consent may be withdrawn by the individual in question at any time.
- An "eligible patient" is further defined as an individual that:
- Has provided verifiable, informed consent on their own free will to assisted suicide and method thereof (where they are fully aware of what they are consenting to, all significant consequences, and any possible alternatives); this consent may be withdrawn by the individual in question at any time,
- Has an incurable medical condition, whether mental or physical, that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and
- Is a member of a sapient species that biologically has the ability to die.
Tinhampton wrote:Member states are allowed to send eligible patients to unregulated clinics: Article 3 requires that "in areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible... member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to a clinic that provides assisted suicide services." Nowhere is it required that such clinics be in WA member states and therefore subject to the provisions of this resolution - including Article 6's provisions against medical professionals coercing eligible patients to "seek, rec[ei]ve or undergo assisted suicide" - or any other resolution (especially about medical ethics).
The fact that member states, not affected eligible patients or their families, "must arrange... travel" to such a clinic effectively allows them to indirectly ignore this resolution for such patients (although I can completely understand why member states should pay for such travel).
Member nations must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction. In areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible, such that a substantial burden to quality of life, time or finances to eligible patients in those areas would otherwise be posed, member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic that provides assisted suicide in a member nation.
Tinhampton wrote:Dangerous definitions abound, episode 1: Article 1's full definition of assisted suicide is "the ending of the life of a sapient patient, where a medical professional assists in the procedure, and the procedure is fast, and free from extreme pain or agony inflicted on the recipient." A doctor-manned guillotine provides a fast, pain-free and medical-professional-assisted way to end a sapient patient's life - yet it is not what most people would consider to be assisted suicide.
Consider HR#164 "Individual Self-Determination," whose Article 7 demanded that "Methods used for right to die must be as humane, painless and fast acting as possible. Starvation, for example, is not permitted." Its repeal, HR#221, made an excellent point when it argued that said Article "only states one example of a death-inducing method that should not be permitted; and that "humane, painless and fast-acting" is too vague to serve as adequate criteria for evaluating methods (a gunshot to the head, for example, is painless and fast-acting, and its 'humanity' is impossible to evaluate objectively)."
You do - at least - save prospective repeal authors from having to do some of The Sacred Orb and Cristia Agape's legwork by requiring merely that assisted suicide procedures meet just two of the criteria laid out by HR#164: namely "fast, and free from extreme pain or agony [for] the recipient."
Tinhampton wrote:Dangerous definitions abound, episode 2: Article 2a requires that an eligible patient have "an incurable medical condition... that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question." By this metric, a prominent professional footballer with few formal qualifications who's had an amputated leg, can't find anything above an entry-level job, and feels as though the reduced wages and lack of potential career progression would "drastically and permanently reduce their quality of life" is an eligible patient. In fact, absolutely no vetting is required, not even by your personal doctor or those closest to you - just say that your "incurable medical condition... drastically and permanently reduces [your] quality of life" and you're well on the way to becoming eligible for assisted suicide, free of charge.
by Imperium Anglorum » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:28 am
Tinhampton wrote:Near-silence on the assisted suicide of non-eligible patients:Article 3, despite requiring that members "provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction," says nothing about whether or not non-eligible patients are allowed to receive assisted suicide. Even Article 6's requirement that "[n]o person, group of persons, or member nation may deliberately pressure an individual to seek, recieve or undergo assisted suicide" does not prevent such entities from just forcing assisted suicide onto any patient they like - eligible or not - without asking their permission or giving them any warning (and therefore pressuring them).
Tinhampton wrote:Those who assist the assisted suicide of even non-eligible patients cannot be prosecuted:Article 1 defines assisted suicide as "the ending of a life of a sapient patient," and Article 3 requires only that members "provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction" (as defined in Article 2).
However, Article 5 forbids "prosecuting persons for... assisting in assisted suicide," even if they assisted with the assisted suicide of a person who is not an eligible patient according to Article 2. This would allow "medical professionals" who assist with the assisted suicide of non-eligible patients - including patients who refuse to give their consent to receiving assisted suicide, have been pressured pursuant to Article 6, or are suffering from nothing more serious than a broken toe - to get away with flagrantly illegal, or at least immoral (even to a liberal atheist), acts.
Tinhampton wrote:Member states are allowed to send eligible patients to unregulated clinics:Article 3 requires that "in areas where assisted suicide services are not locally accessible... member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to a clinic that provides assisted suicide services." Nowhere is it required that such clinics be in WA member states and therefore subject to the provisions of this resolution - including Article 6's provisions against medical professionals coercing eligible patients to "seek, rec[ei]ve or undergo assisted suicide" - or any other resolution (especially about medical ethics).
The fact that member states, not affected eligible patients or their families, "must arrange... travel" to such a clinic effectively allows them to indirectly ignore this resolution for such patients (although I can completely understand why member states should pay for such travel).
Tinhampton wrote:Dangerous definitions abound, episode 1:Article 1's full definition of assisted suicide is "the ending of the life of a sapient patient, where a medical professional assists in the procedure, and the procedure is fast, and free from extreme pain or agony inflicted on the recipient." A doctor-manned guillotine provides a fast, pain-free and medical-professional-assisted way to end a sapient patient's life - yet it is not what most people would consider to be assisted suicide.
Consider HR#164 "Individual Self-Determination," whose Article 7 demanded that "Methods used for right to die must be as humane, painless and fast acting as possible. Starvation, for example, is not permitted." Its repeal, HR#221, made an excellent point when it argued that said Article "only states one example of a death-inducing method that should not be permitted; and that "humane, painless and fast-acting" is too vague to serve as adequate criteria for evaluating methods (a gunshot to the head, for example, is painless and fast-acting, and its 'humanity' is impossible to evaluate objectively)."
You do - at least - save prospective repeal authors from having to do some of The Sacred Orb and Cristia Agape's legwork by requiring merely that assisted suicide procedures meet just two of the criteria laid out by HR#164: namely "fast, and free from extreme pain or agony [for] the recipient."
Tinhampton wrote:Dangerous definitions abound, episode 2:Article 2a requires that an eligible patient have "an incurable medical condition... that directly causes permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question." By this metric, a prominent professional footballer with few formal qualifications who's had an amputated leg, can't find anything above an entry-level job, and feels as though the reduced wages and lack of potential career progression would "drastically and permanently reduce their quality of life" is an eligible patient. In fact, absolutely no vetting is required, not even by your personal doctor or those closest to you - just say that your "incurable medical condition... drastically and permanently reduces [your] quality of life" and you're well on the way to becoming eligible for assisted suicide, free of charge.
by Apatosaurus » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:38 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:You might make some histrionic objections saying that people might end up being killed by guillotines. If that's the case, then the person who chose assisted suicide made that choice. One of the corollaries is that this is the least painful method available; otherwise someone would have chosen a less painful method.
by Apatosaurus » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:41 pm
by Apatosaurus » Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:47 am
This august body clarifies that consent provided by an individual for assisted suicide in advance of meeting section 1.a.iii requirements or their preferred timeframe for recieving assisted suicide shall still count as consent for the purposes of 1.a.iv and 1.b, but assisted suicide still may not be performed on that individual until all the other requirements in 1.a are met, and if applicable, the preferred timeframe to recieve assisted suicide as provided by the consenting individual is met.
by WayNeacTia » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:57 pm
Apatosaurus wrote:Added Section 8 to clarify on advance directives:This august body clarifies that consent provided by an individual for assisted suicide in advance of meeting section 1.a.iii requirements or their preferred timeframe for recieving assisted suicide shall still count as consent for the purposes of 1.a.iv and 1.b, but assisted suicide still may not be performed on that individual until all the other requirements in 1.a are met, and if applicable, the preferred timeframe to recieve assisted suicide as provided by the consenting individual is met.
What are people's thoughts?
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Apatosaurus » Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:14 pm
by WayNeacTia » Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:43 am
Apatosaurus wrote:Thanks for the free bump Wayne.
EDIT: When you complain about me asking for feedback, by generating free clicks and views!
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Apatosaurus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:36 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Thanks for the free bump Wayne. :)
EDIT: When you complain about me asking for feedback, by generating free clicks and views!
An unearned smug attitude, free views and bumps aren’t going to make this any more legal until 285 is repealed, no matter how much shitposting you do in the drafting thread. Maybe you should try to keep that in mind before you decide to make smartass comments?
by WayNeacTia » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:22 pm
Apatosaurus wrote:Wayneactia wrote:An unearned smug attitude, free views and bumps aren’t going to make this any more legal until 285 is repealed, no matter how much shitposting you do in the drafting thread. Maybe you should try to keep that in mind before you decide to make smartass comments?
It may not become more legal, but it can become higher quality, which in my opinion (not sure about yours though) is a good thing for when it does become legal.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Apatosaurus » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:34 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Except no one gives a shit until 285 is repealed, as this will go nowhere until then.
by Astrobolt » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:51 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:It may not become more legal, but it can become higher quality, which in my opinion (not sure about yours though) is a good thing for when it does become legal.
Except no one gives a shit until 285 is repealed, as this will go nowhere until then. So..... I do believe the time has come to either shit or get off the pot my man.
by Wallenburg » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:26 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:It may not become more legal, but it can become higher quality, which in my opinion (not sure about yours though) is a good thing for when it does become legal.
Except no one gives a shit until 285 is repealed, as this will go nowhere until then. So..... I do believe the time has come to either shit or get off the pot my man.
by Unibot III » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:55 am
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by WayNeacTia » Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:10 pm
Wallenburg wrote:Wayneactia wrote:Except no one gives a shit until 285 is repealed, as this will go nowhere until then. So..... I do believe the time has come to either shit or get off the pot my man.
We all know you'd be just as snide if a repeal was put forward without a replacement prepared. You are providing nothing of value to this drafting thread.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Apatosaurus » Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:25 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Wallenburg wrote:We all know you'd be just as snide if a repeal was put forward without a replacement prepared. You are providing nothing of value to this drafting thread.
Well it has come to my attention that you need some competition. Now I couldn't hope to compete on your level, but I am up for a challenge.........
by Thousand Branches » Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:12 pm
Apatosaurus wrote:Resolving that individuals should have the legal right to end their lives if they are in unbearable agony from an incurable mental or physical illness,
Apatosaurus wrote:Thinking that denying this right to individuals will only cause individuals needless suffering and agony,
Apatosaurus wrote:Believing that supposed dangers of legalising assisted suicide do not outweigh the right to end one's life on their own terms, and
Apatosaurus wrote:Concluding that this august body should formally mandate that all member-nations legalise assisted suicide,
Apatosaurus wrote:
- Defining, for the purposes of this resolution:
- “assisted suicide” as practicing humane euthanasia on an individual, where:
- the procedure is performed by a medical professional trained in euthanasia,
- the procedure is quick, painless, and private,
- the recipient possesses an incurable medical condition that causes them permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and
- the recipient has, of their own free will, provided verifiable and informed consent to the procedure and method thereof; this consent may be withdrawn by the individual in question at any time,
- "eligible patient" as a legally consenting individual eligible to receive assisted suicide,
Apatosaurus wrote:Member nations must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction seeking assisted suicide. In areas where assisted suicide services are otherwise not locally accessible, member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.
Apatosaurus wrote:No member nation may discriminate against persons recieving or seeking assisted suicide, assisting in assisted suicide, otherwise facilitating assisted suicide, or heirs of assisted suicide recipients (referred to as "said persons" within this clause), in ways including but not limited to:
Apatosaurus wrote:discriminating against said persons in tax by placing a higher burden of tax on them, or
failing to provide equal protection before the law to said persons.
Apatosaurus wrote:Member nations may not prosecute persons for recieving or seeking assisted suicide, being a heir of a recipient of assisted suicide, assisting in assisted suicide, or otherwise facilitating assisted suicide, including but not limited to using these as aggravating factors when considering other crimes committed. Member nations also may not treat the heirs of an assisted suicide recipient different from the heirs of a person who died a natural death.
Apatosaurus wrote:No person, group of persons, or member nation may deliberately pressure or require an individual to seek, recieve or undergo assisted suicide.
Apatosaurus wrote:No member nation may implement any policy which has a cognisable impact of burdening the ability of eligible patients to receive assisted suicide unless that member nation shows that the restriction furthers a clearly stated, compelling, and practical state interest with narrowly tailored and least restrictive means.
Apatosaurus wrote:A medical professional that publicly communicates a bona fide objection against performing assisted suicide in advance, may not be required to perform assisted suicide, if and only if said professional refers their patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily and locally accessible assisted suicide services.
Apatosaurus wrote:Consent provided by an individual for assisted suicide in advance of meeting section 1.a.iii requirements or their preferred timeframe for recieving assisted suicide shall still count as consent for the purposes of 1.a.iv and 1.b, but assisted suicide still may not be performed on that individual until all the other requirements in 1.a are met, and if applicable, the preferred timeframe to recieve assisted suicide as provided by the consenting individual is met.
by Apatosaurus » Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:21 am
Thousand Branches wrote:EDITS!!!
Resolution-wide edits: Please spell receive correctly, it is not spelled "recieve" (just go ctrl-f for "reciev" and you should pull up all instances of "recieve" and "recieving").
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Resolving that individuals should have the legal right to end their lives if they are in unbearable agony from an incurable mental or physical illness,
I don't think "resolving" is the word you were looking for. If anything it would be "resolved" and in that case, "convinced" would be a far better alternative.
"have" --> "possess"
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Thinking that denying this right to individuals will only cause individuals needless suffering and agony,
"Thinking" is a very gross word. Perhaps "confident"?
First "individuals" --> "such individuals"
"only cause individuals" --> "only cause them"
Nix "and agony".
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Believing that supposed dangers of legalising assisted suicide do not outweigh the right to end one's life on their own terms, and
Wdym "supposed dangers"??? They're literally dying... that's the epitome of "danger". I'm genuinely curious as to what this could possibly be referring to?
Thousand Branches wrote:"that" --> "that the"Apatosaurus wrote:Concluding that this august body should formally mandate that all member-nations legalise assisted suicide,
Delete this, it's utterly unnecessary and kills the flow, you've clearly and obviously already stated the purpose of this legislation.
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:
- Defining, for the purposes of this resolution:
- “assisted suicide” as practicing humane euthanasia on an individual, where:
- the procedure is performed by a medical professional trained in euthanasia,
- the procedure is quick, painless, and private,
- the recipient possesses an incurable medical condition that causes them permanent suffering or drastically and permanently reduces their quality of life as determined by the individual in question, and
- the recipient has, of their own free will, provided verifiable and informed consent to the procedure and method thereof; this consent may be withdrawn by the individual in question at any time,
- "eligible patient" as a legally consenting individual eligible to receive assisted suicide,
For the record, I deleted the definition for "member state" because that has never, at any time in the history of the WA, needed to exist as a definition. I deleted the definition for "locally accessible" because it is unnecessary and used literally twice throughout the entire resolution (not to mention mildly confusing).
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Member nations must provide free assisted suicide services to eligible patients within their jurisdiction seeking assisted suicide. In areas where assisted suicide services are otherwise not locally accessible, member nations must arrange and pay for eligible patients in those areas to travel to the nearest clinic within WA jurisdiction that provides assisted suicide services.
What is "their jurisdiction"? This isn't explained anywhere afaik? (If it is lmk, I could just be stupid)
Thousand Branches wrote:Delete "otherwise".
Apatosaurus wrote:No member nation may discriminate against persons recieving or seeking assisted suicide, assisting in assisted suicide, otherwise facilitating assisted suicide, or heirs ofThousand Branches wrote:assisted suicide recipients (referred to as "said persons" within this clause), in ways including but not limited to:
Gonna go ahead and do a rewrite here:
"No member nation may discriminate against any persons receiving, seeking, administering, or otherwise facilitating euthanasia, as well as any heirs of euthanasia recipients, in ways including but not limited to:"
Reads a little better, and the "said persons" bit is not necessary, that should be clear enough.
by Apatosaurus » Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:39 pm
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:discriminating against said persons in tax by placing a higher burden of tax on them, or
failing to provide equal protection before the law to said persons.
Okay I feel like this is really specific? The only two sorts of discrimination that are protected against are through tax and law, not just regular discrimination? Also does this tax thing exist for an irl reason? is there some precedent for that somewhere? The law one as well tbh, I'd be curious to see the sources or reasoning behind these.
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Member nations may not prosecute persons for recieving or seeking assisted suicide, being a heir of a recipient of assisted suicide, assisting in assisted suicide, or otherwise facilitating assisted suicide, including but not limited to using these as aggravating factors when considering other crimes committed. Member nations also may not treat the heirs of an assisted suicide recipient different from the heirs of a person who died a natural death.
Receive spelling.
I don't see why this couldn't be included in the list, this literally begins almost exactly the same way and seems like an easy list item. These are still forms of discrimination imo.
Thousand Branches wrote:"receive" and "undergo" would be the same thing yes?
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:No member nation may implement any policy which has a cognisable impact of burdening the ability of eligible patients to receive assisted suicide unless that member nation shows that the restriction furthers a clearly stated, compelling, and practical state interest with narrowly tailored and least restrictive means.
"any policy which" --> "any policy that"
Thousand Branches wrote:Also I'm gonna be totally honest, I have no idea what this clause is saying. Honestly have no clue.
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:A medical professional that publicly communicates a bona fide objection against performing assisted suicide in advance, may not be required to perform assisted suicide, if and only if said professional refers their patients seeking assisted suicide to easily, readily and locally accessible assisted suicide services.
Remove commas around "may not... suicide".
Thousand Branches wrote:"in advance" of what?
Thousand Branches wrote:Oxford comma after "readily"
Thousand Branches wrote:Apatosaurus wrote:Consent provided by an individual for assisted suicide in advance of meeting section 1.a.iii requirements or their preferred timeframe for recieving assisted suicide shall still count as consent for the purposes of 1.a.iv and 1.b, but assisted suicide still may not be performed on that individual until all the other requirements in 1.a are met, and if applicable, the preferred timeframe to recieve assisted suicide as provided by the consenting individual is met.
I have no idea what this means.
by Xanthorrhoea » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:05 pm
by Apatosaurus » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:20 pm
Xanthorrhoea wrote:The World Assembly,
Appalled at the lack of humour in language,
Convinced that we can have more fun,
Hereby:
Mandates that the word “euthanasia” be replaced with the phrase “youth in Asia,” as this is so much cooler.
by Apatosaurus » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 pm
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