[ABANDONED] Right To Independence Referenda

[Hulldom]

OOC: Have we gone back in time to 2016 or something?

IC: "This is the most insane thing I have ever seen proposed around here. Nations should have the right to self determination, counties etc not so much."

OOC: I agree with the premise in principle, but I think that there are certainly ways to block it even with a right to petition.

IC: “I concur with the delegation from Bananaistan. It’s frankly absurd that the province of Alseden has a right to hold a referendum on their independence. That is not the way it should work. It should work that I have to allow it, not that I’m forced to.”

[Daarwyrth]

OOC: Have we gone back in time to 2016 or something?

IC: "This is the most insane thing I have ever seen proposed around here. Nations should have the right to self determination, counties etc not so much."

Vyn Nysen: "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Ambassador, it was not our intent to produce an insane proposal. If the subject is too difficult to legislate upon, or too inappropriate for the scale of WA law, then we will naturally not pursue submission of this proposal. Yet while I do see your point of view, I do believe that those regions, administrative divisions or territories that yearn to secede should have a voice in affairs. Yet that may be inexperienced naivety talking, so our delegation will defer to the wisdom of more experienced delegations.

OOC: Are you referring to something that was happening on NS in 2016?

[Bananaistan]

OOC: Are you referring to something that was happening on NS in 2016?

https://www.nationstates.net/page=gensec

In response to talk about mods.

[Bananaistan]

OOC: Have we gone back in time to 2016 or something?

IC: "This is the most insane thing I have ever seen proposed around here. Nations should have the right to self determination, counties etc not so much."

Vyn Nysen: "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Ambassador, it was not our intent to produce an insane proposal. If the subject is too difficult to legislate upon, or too inappropriate for the scale of WA law, then we will naturally not pursue submission of this proposal. Yet while I do see your point of view, I do believe that those regions, administrative divisions or territories that yearn to secede should have a voice in affairs. Yet that may be inexperienced naivety talking, so our delegation will defer to the wisdom of more experienced delegations.

"This assembly can only give people "a voice in affairs" when they already have "a voice in affairs".

"Regardless of whether they have "a voice in affairs", it's absolutely bonkers that any administrative division would have a right to secede. What's the justification for a county, parish or townland having a right to secede?"

[Daarwyrth]

Vyn Nysen: "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Ambassador, it was not our intent to produce an insane proposal. If the subject is too difficult to legislate upon, or too inappropriate for the scale of WA law, then we will naturally not pursue submission of this proposal. Yet while I do see your point of view, I do believe that those regions, administrative divisions or territories that yearn to secede should have a voice in affairs. Yet that may be inexperienced naivety talking, so our delegation will defer to the wisdom of more experienced delegations.

"This assembly can only give people "a voice in affairs" when they already have "a voice in affairs".

"Regardless of whether they have "a voice in affairs", it's absolutely bonkers that any administrative division would have a right to secede. What's the justification for a county, parish or townland having a right to secede?"

Vyn Nysen: "If such would be the will of a community, namely to secede and continue as a sovereign entity, then I think that would be a ground for a referendum on such a matter. Especially if it is a region or territory that was forcefully incorporated into a nation in the past, and never had felt part of that nation. Such a region could have been made an administrative division of the country it is a part of, yet yearn full independence instead of mere regional autonomy. That idea didn't seem as outlandish to our delegation, if I am honest, yet again, perhaps we simply have a different way of thinking on the subject."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Obraztsova: Completely opposed. While we believe in the limited amount of freedom the nations should have, this really crossed the line and went 1 thousand kilometers while at this. Not only will this allow for such absurd situations as, for example, a city gone rampant with crime holding a referendum, which it will win due to an extreme amount of criminals in it, and we’re not talking here about declaring guerillas and freedom fighters criminals, we’re talking organized crime, and than legally breaking up and turning into a hellhole which the state won’t be able to intervene into because clause 5.

Even worse, this proposal in any given form will result in horrific results in a nations with a two-party system. Take the United Federation (US in NS if I recall correctly)- can you even imagine what mayhem will begin once, after the candidate from another party will win and the other party will push a secession referendum in all of the counties and states it controls?

If this resolution is going to proceed to voting and actually be about to win, we’ll have no choice but to leave the WA for good, simply in order to preserve law and order and to protect what we hold dear.

[Comfed]

"We are strongly opposed to this resolution. It is an explicit assault on the sovereignty of the nation."

[Bananaistan]

"This assembly can only give people "a voice in affairs" when they already have "a voice in affairs".

"Regardless of whether they have "a voice in affairs", it's absolutely bonkers that any administrative division would have a right to secede. What's the justification for a county, parish or townland having a right to secede?"

Vyn Nysen: "If such would be the will of a community, namely to secede and continue as a sovereign entity, then I think that would be a ground for a referendum on such a matter. Especially if it is a region or territory that was forcefully incorporated into a nation in the past, and never had felt part of that nation. Such a region could have been made an administrative division of the country it is a part of, yet yearn full independence instead of mere regional autonomy. That idea didn't seem as outlandish to our delegation, if I am honest, yet again, perhaps we simply have a different way of thinking on the subject."

"Administrative divisions vary from country to country. You could be talking a tiny place of a few square kilometres and maybe a few families. Such does not have a right to self determination just because a few cranks happen to live there. Neither do larger regions or territories.

"In any event, the objections raised by Comrade Russell are valid: so people can vote for an independence referendum but can't actually vote for anything. This is the same tired old bullshit beating around the bush of democracy."

[Daarwyrth]

Vyn Nysen: "As I have said before, if more experienced delegations than ours express a negative sentiment to this idea - which is the case, as it happens - we will not push forward submission or continued work on this proposal idea. The points that are being raised around this subject are valid, which is why our delegation is glad that there is a process of debate and commentary on proposal drafts.

As such, our delegation feels persuaded by the arguments put forward by WA members against this proposal idea, and shall discontinue further work on this draft without any qualms. We are grateful for the time and attention devoted on this idea, nonetheless."

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Vyn Nysen: "As I have said before, if more experienced delegations than ours express a negative sentiment to this idea - which is the case, as it happens - we will not push forward submission or continued work on this proposal idea. The points that are being raised around this subject are valid, which is why our delegation is glad that there is a process of debate and commentary on proposal drafts.

As such, our delegation feels persuaded by the arguments put forward by WA members against this proposal idea, and shall discontinue further work on this draft without any qualms. We are grateful for the time and attention devoted on this idea, nonetheless."

Obraztsova: Thank you for your ability to understand whenever you’re wrong, and the fact that you have the honor to acknowledge this. If only my predecessors and my superiors had this wisdom maybe our reputation would be be so terrible...
OOC: Damn obraztsova starts to remind me of Ribbentrop who was just trying to do his job while his bosses were constantly fucking things up. Although her dissident is far more obvious and open

[Daarwyrth]

Vyn Nysen: "As I have said before, if more experienced delegations than ours express a negative sentiment to this idea - which is the case, as it happens - we will not push forward submission or continued work on this proposal idea. The points that are being raised around this subject are valid, which is why our delegation is glad that there is a process of debate and commentary on proposal drafts.

As such, our delegation feels persuaded by the arguments put forward by WA members against this proposal idea, and shall discontinue further work on this draft without any qualms. We are grateful for the time and attention devoted on this idea, nonetheless."

Obraztsova: Thank you for your ability to understand whenever you’re wrong, and the fact that you have the honor to acknowledge this. If only my predecessors and my superiors had this wisdom maybe our reputation would be be so terrible...

Vyn Nysen: "I believe it is not a shame to change a viewpoint or stance if someone has put forward persuasive arguments on why they are wrong, incorrect or incomplete. Really, it is my hope that people will attach less shame, usually self-imposed shame, on a change of heart. I once heard the beautiful saying "the man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind". Personally, I am very much in agreement with that sentiment."

[Ardiveds]

"Ambassador, perhaps you could try a less drastic approach to this topic. How about, instead of making governments having to recognize independence of their subdivisions, governments have to atleast negotiate for greater autonomy if a certain region wants independence?"

[Daarwyrth]

"Ambassador, perhaps you could try a less drastic approach to this topic. How about, instead of making governments having to recognize independence of their subdivisions, governments have to atleast negotiate for greater autonomy if a certain region wants independence?"

Vyn Nysen: "There might be potential for a resolution proposal on that topic, yes. Our delegation will take it under consideration and see if the idea will bear fruit in the (near) future."

[Imperium Anglorum]

How to win independence referenda.

1. Literally anything happens. Blame the centre.
2. Hold a referendum.
3. If you lose, immediately hold another one, regardless of promises made not to hold one.
4. If permission is not forthcoming, blame the centre.
5. Repeat until you get 50%+1 of voters to agree.

This is a dumb proposal which puts feelings before policy.

[Daarwyrth]

How to win independence referenda.

1. Literally anything happens. Blame the centre.
2. Hold a referendum.
3. If you lose, immediately hold another one, regardless of promises made not to hold one.
4. If permission is not forthcoming, blame the centre.
5. Repeat until you get 50%+1 of voters to agree.

This is a dumb proposal which puts feelings before policy.

OOC: I've already discontinued further work on this, the need for the use of "dumb" was not there, I feel.