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[Draft] Enforcing Ethics in Farming

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed May 26, 2021 6:45 pm

Ardiveds wrote:“Ambassador, wouldn’t 1.b.iv ban the use of sheep dogs or any other methods to corral farm animals? From our understanding, that is basically inflicting fear to gain compliance.”

OOC: Sheep are not afraid of well trained sheep dogs. https://www.isds.org.uk/trials/sheep-we ... ss%20there!

IC: "Unless a sheep dog is not well-trained, sheep do not actually fear sheep dogs. I understand where that impression comes from, but it's simply a misconception."
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Wed May 26, 2021 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ardiveds
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Postby Ardiveds » Wed May 26, 2021 6:56 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:“Ambassador, wouldn’t 1.b.iv ban the use of sheep dogs or any other methods to corral farm animals? From our understanding, that is basically inflicting fear to gain compliance.”

OOC: Sheep are not afraid of well trained sheep dogs. https://www.isds.org.uk/trials/sheep-we ... ss%20there!

IC: "Unless a sheep dog is not well-trained, sheep do not actually fear sheep dogs. I understand where that impression comes from, but it's simply a misconception."

OOC: And what about farmers corralling cows themselves, sometimes with sticks? Is fear not involved in that either? I dunno if these are dumb questions but I don’t know shit about this stuff.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed May 26, 2021 7:36 pm

Ardiveds wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: Sheep are not afraid of well trained sheep dogs. https://www.isds.org.uk/trials/sheep-we ... ss%20there!

IC: "Unless a sheep dog is not well-trained, sheep do not actually fear sheep dogs. I understand where that impression comes from, but it's simply a misconception."

OOC: And what about farmers corralling cows themselves, sometimes with sticks? Is fear not involved in that either? I dunno if these are dumb questions but I don’t know shit about this stuff.

OOC: Using sticks to inflict pain or fear is an antiquated method that is almost universally frowned upon, and is not effective to corral animals, especially cows. It is also very rare. The compliance of farm animals is ideally achieved through insistence and designing fields and enclosures to ensure they have a better likelihood of following the wishes of the herder. All fear-based compliance does is make them likely to resist or attack farmers and farm hands in the future.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Thu May 27, 2021 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Thu May 27, 2021 1:46 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Ardiveds wrote:OOC: And what about farmers corralling cows themselves, sometimes with sticks? Is fear not involved in that either? I dunno if these are dumb questions but I don’t know shit about this stuff.

OOC: Using sticks is an antiquated method that is almost universally frowned upon, and is not effective to corral animals, especially cows. It is also very rare. The compliance of farm animals is ideally achieved through insistence and designing fields and enclosures to ensure they have a better likelihood of following the wishes of the herder. All fear-based compliance does is make them likely to resist or attack farmers and farm hands in the future.


OOC: Yeah, my experience of sticks is that they are an extension of your arm to wave about to block a gap, or prod on the backside, etc. These let the cattle know you're there or want to go in a certain direction and are not for fear or pain, and keep the farmer at a safe distance from the kicking range of the animal when they decide that they don't want to move and lash out at the clown annoying them. Also, compare a congratulatory slap on the back to a person, does not cause pain or fear - the same principle is at play with sticks and if the farmer is whacking the cattle so hard as to cause pain, they prolly deserve a whack of the stick themselves.
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Fri May 28, 2021 10:29 pm

*bumps*
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Sun May 30, 2021 12:50 am

OOC: "keeping farm animals confined in close proximity with numerous other farm animals for extended period of time" - this is what all animal farming is, so congrats, you've banned all animal farming. Also take into account that most farmed animals are social by nature and solitary confinement would be as bad or worse for their health as ours.

Also not entirely certain why we should care about the nonexistent feelings or crickets or shrimp. Both are farmed for food.
Last edited by Araraukar on Sun May 30, 2021 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun May 30, 2021 8:27 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: "keeping farm animals confined in close proximity with numerous other farm animals for extended period of time" - this is what all animal farming is, so congrats, you've banned all animal farming. Also take into account that most farmed animals are social by nature and solitary confinement would be as bad or worse for their health as ours.

Also not entirely certain why we should care about the nonexistent feelings or crickets or shrimp. Both are farmed for food.

OOC: Nothing in the draft suggested the solitary confinement of animals. I do recognize that the part about close confinement isn't necessary, due to the earlier stipulation about keeping farm animals confined in spaces where their range of motion is limited.

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The Python
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Postby The Python » Sun May 30, 2021 1:10 pm

Araraukar wrote:Also not entirely certain why we should care about the nonexistent feelings or crickets or shrimp. Both are farmed for food.


It's much more preferrible with situations such as these to over-regulate than to under-regulate.
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
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Political compass 9Axes 8Values
fenda nations always deserve banjection - Evil Cub
I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun May 30, 2021 6:32 pm

I concur with Ara re animals without indication of feelings of any sort.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon May 31, 2021 4:39 pm

The Python wrote:
Araraukar wrote:Also not entirely certain why we should care about the nonexistent feelings or crickets or shrimp. Both are farmed for food.


It's much more preferrible with situations such as these to over-regulate than to under-regulate.

"Disagree. Underregulation can be addressed domestically. Overregulation cannot. Underregulation is not inherently wasteful. Overregulation is.

"The welfare of livestock is, frankly, meaningless to states, which have real concerns relative to the interactions of states and protection of their people."

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The Python
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Postby The Python » Mon May 31, 2021 4:44 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
The Python wrote:
It's much more preferrible with situations such as these to over-regulate than to under-regulate.

"Disagree. Underregulation can be addressed domestically. Overregulation cannot. Underregulation is not inherently wasteful. Overregulation is.

"The welfare of livestock is, frankly, meaningless to states, which have real concerns relative to the interactions of states and protection of their people."

The price of animal products and other unimportant things like that etc is less important than the welfare of animals.
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
Against:Authoritarianism,Racism,War,Abortion,Nationalism,Conservatism,Factory farm etc.
Political compass 9Axes 8Values
fenda nations always deserve banjection - Evil Cub
I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon May 31, 2021 4:46 pm

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Disagree. Underregulation can be addressed domestically. Overregulation cannot. Underregulation is not inherently wasteful. Overregulation is.

"The welfare of livestock is, frankly, meaningless to states, which have real concerns relative to the interactions of states and protection of their people."

The price of animal products and other unimportant things like that etc is less important than the welfare of animals.

"This is an unsupported statement. I welcome your subsequent reasoning."

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon May 31, 2021 5:06 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: Solitary confinement of farm animals has been prohibited.

OOC: What if the farm animal requested it because of threats against that farm animal's life by other farm animals? What if its to cool down the farm animal that just got into a fight with another farm animal? What if-wait, I'm reading off the Standard Questions for Prison Reform card, not the Standard Questions for Animal Welfare card. Sorry, my bad.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:23 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: Solitary confinement of farm animals has been prohibited.

OOC: Going too far in the other direction. Raising animals for pet trade seems to come under the definition used. I don't know if you've ever had anything more complicated than a dog as pet, but there are some animals that MUST be kept in "solitary confinement" or they'll try to kill one another. Like spiders for example. Put more than one spider outside of breeding season in the same terrarium, and sooner or later you're going to have just one, slightly fatter spider. Also whatever is the more PC term for Siamese fighting fish males.

Also you just made quarantine impossible.

But you could just, instead, require that as far as reasonably possible, they be provided species-appropriate living conditions. The "reasonably" is important, because, well, chickens are from a jungle, yet requiring they can only be kept in jungle-like conditions would be mmmmmaaaaad. And impractical.

b.ii. "the force-feeding of farm animals against their will" - could be just "force-feeding of farm animals", as the "force" means "no choice given" and animals can't consent to begin with. Though that should have a medical exception, as few animals happily take their meds even when they're meant to save their life/improve their wellbeing.

I still don't really care about the feelings of shrimp, though.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:52 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
The Python wrote:The price of animal products and other unimportant things like that etc is less important than the welfare of animals.

"This is an unsupported statement. I welcome your subsequent reasoning."

"I still await more support than bare assertion for the claims made."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
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The Python
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Postby The Python » Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:18 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"This is an unsupported statement. I welcome your subsequent reasoning."

"I still await more support than bare assertion for the claims made."

"Since when is the welfare of animals and they are not suffering as much as factory farming makes them suffer, less important than how many pieces of paper or metal are needed to get animal products?"
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
Against:Authoritarianism,Racism,War,Abortion,Nationalism,Conservatism,Factory farm etc.
Political compass 9Axes 8Values
fenda nations always deserve banjection - Evil Cub
I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:24 am

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"I still await more support than bare assertion for the claims made."

"Since when is the welfare of animals and they are not suffering as much as factory farming makes them suffer, less important than how many pieces of paper or metal are needed to get animal products?"

"I am intrigued. How were you planning to pay for rent or food or electricity or internet with animal welfare?"
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:19 am

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"I still await more support than bare assertion for the claims made."

"Since when is the welfare of animals and they are not suffering as much as factory farming makes them suffer, less important than how many pieces of paper or metal are needed to get animal products?"

"This is begging the question. Suffering of nonsapient animals has literally never been more important than the profits derived from them. This is literally why factory farming, which you admit exists, exists. You have not given any effective argument, ambassador, as to why state interests should value the suffering of animals over the economic and strategic value of a robust food and animal product production sector.

"Food production is the historical foundation of sapient society. The ability of a population to be fed is an a priori requirement of states. The ability to operate that source of food independently from foreign reliance is a strategic concern. The value derived from commercial activity provides jobs, economic prosperity, and tax revenue, allowing states to fund other policy concerns. Animal product production allows states to engage or otherwise participate in international commerce, facilitating the flow of funds into state coffers at one level or another.

"Conversely, animal suffering provides no harm to state interests. It provides no harm to individual interests for most persons. It is a consequence external to the sapient individuals for whom the state exists. Why, then, is animal suffering a greater cost to society than the byproducts of that suffering? "
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hookah Castle
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Postby Hookah Castle » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:19 pm

Tinhampton wrote:Delegate-Ambassador Smith: Everything is "possibly carcinogenic." Deal with it.

OOC: In its resolution from January on enshrining the right to disconnect in European law, the European Parliament notes that "the International Agency for Research on Cancer has classified radio-frequency radiation as a possible carcinogenic" (see section D). Ought the World Assembly to ban computers and televisions?

I mean...maybe. It certainly would upset a lot of people and it's none of my strong industries anyway so...

Than again it might be as I do have big chungus retail so maybe we shouldn't prevent computers and televisions.

I mean I'm not ambassador nation of my Union anyway so it isn't my problem if I don't follow resolutions lol

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The Python
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Postby The Python » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:22 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
The Python wrote:"Since when is the welfare of animals and they are not suffering as much as factory farming makes them suffer, less important than how many pieces of paper or metal are needed to get animal products?"

"This is begging the question. Suffering of nonsapient animals has literally never been more important than the profits derived from them. This is literally why factory farming, which you admit exists, exists. You have not given any effective argument, ambassador, as to why state interests should value the suffering of animals over the economic and strategic value of a robust food and animal product production sector.

"Why is it better that animals suffer their entire life just because some people decided that it's cheaper??"
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
Against:Authoritarianism,Racism,War,Abortion,Nationalism,Conservatism,Factory farm etc.
Political compass 9Axes 8Values
fenda nations always deserve banjection - Evil Cub
I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:29 pm

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"This is begging the question. Suffering of nonsapient animals has literally never been more important than the profits derived from them. This is literally why factory farming, which you admit exists, exists. You have not given any effective argument, ambassador, as to why state interests should value the suffering of animals over the economic and strategic value of a robust food and animal product production sector.

"Why is it better that animals suffer their entire life just because some people decided that it's cheaper??"

“People run nations, food production and factories. Animals do not. Therefore, to a presumably-person-run nation, the priorities of people and of the economy naturally outrank those of animals. As the ambassador from Separatist Peoples has stated, you have not yet given a reason as to why a state might prioritise animal welfare over the state’s average consumer.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:07 pm

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"This is begging the question. Suffering of nonsapient animals has literally never been more important than the profits derived from them. This is literally why factory farming, which you admit exists, exists. You have not given any effective argument, ambassador, as to why state interests should value the suffering of animals over the economic and strategic value of a robust food and animal product production sector.

"Why is it better that animals suffer their entire life just because some people decided that it's cheaper??"


"You have not answered my question, ambassador. I will happily answer yours when you answer mine. Until you do, you have not met your burden of persuasion, and can count on my active opposition."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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The Python
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Founded: Jul 24, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Python » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:21 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
The Python wrote:"Why is it better that animals suffer their entire life just because some people decided that it's cheaper??"


"You have not answered my question, ambassador. I will happily answer yours when you answer mine. Until you do, you have not met your burden of persuasion, and can count on my active opposition."

"Humans who eat meat can spend 5 more dollars on a pack of animal products. Farm animals have to suffer their entire life by being cramped in ridiculously tiny cages. If you can explain to my why, it is better that animals suffer as much as they do in factory farming than someone having to spend 5 more dollars, then your argument will have logic."
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
Against:Authoritarianism,Racism,War,Abortion,Nationalism,Conservatism,Factory farm etc.
Political compass 9Axes 8Values
fenda nations always deserve banjection - Evil Cub
I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:26 pm

The Python wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"You have not answered my question, ambassador. I will happily answer yours when you answer mine. Until you do, you have not met your burden of persuasion, and can count on my active opposition."

"Humans who eat meat can spend 5 more dollars on a pack of animal products. Farm animals have to suffer their entire life by being cramped in ridiculously tiny cages. If you can explain to my why, it is better that animals suffer as much as they do in factory farming than someone having to spend 5 more dollars, then your argument will have logic."

“It is not about what is better, ambassador; it is about what is relevant to a rational nation’s interest, and therefore to the WA’s interest. Utility is a very different thing to morality. Also, use ‘individuals’ rather than ‘humans’ - let’s not be anthropocentric now.”
Last edited by Kenmoria on Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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