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[DRAFT] Protecting Inhabitants During Territorial Trans.

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Daarwyrth
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[DRAFT] Protecting Inhabitants During Territorial Trans.

Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:22 pm

"Our delegation brings before you the following proposal draft, on which we would appreciate your thoughts and comments. We'd especially like to receive feedback on the chosen category, as well as the strength. Are these appropriate, or would a different category/strength suit this proposal better?"

- Dame Maria vyn Nysen
WA Representative to the Royal State of Daarwyrth

CURRENT DRAFT:
Protecting Inhabitants During Territorial Transitions
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Mild



The General Assembly,

Aware of the territorial transitions between member states as part of trade agreements, or other diplomatic proceedings;

Affirming that it is the right of sovereign states to manage their territory in a manner that they see fit; yet

Concerned about the fate of the inhabitants that live on the lands that are affected by those territorial transitions;

Hereby:

  1. Mandates member states to ensure that inhabitants affected by territorial transitions as a result of economic or diplomatic proceedings without armed conflict or the the threat of such preceding them, will be properly aided and guided in the change of jurisdiction that they will be subjected to, in the following way:

    1. Inhabitants who reside within the territory that will be transitioned to another sovereign entity, will be extensively and in detail informed on the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose as a result of the territorial transition;

    2. No knowledge or information on the jurisdictional changes that inhabitants will be subjected to may be withheld from those affected by a territorial purchase and/or sale, especially when an inhabitant may be negatively impacted by a territorial transition of the aforementioned kind;

    3. Any information that may otherwise impact the inhabitants of member states who will be subjected to a territorial transition as described in Clause 1, either negatively or positively, will be shared with those inhabitants without interference or obstruction;

  2. Requires member states to grant inhabitants who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that inhabitant be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

  3. Instructs member states to assist inhabitants who would choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, in the event that those inhabitants would be unable to see to their basic needs as a result of the relocation;

  4. Clarifies that in cases of mass relocation as a result of territorial transitions as specified under Clause 1, which would cause a nation to be overwhelmed in terms of housing and the fulfillment of inhabitants' basic needs, the latter's rights as granted by Clauses 2 and 3 can be temporarily waived, and resolved through other suitable, temporary measures, until the nation in question has mitigated its overwhelmed state.

  5. Further requires member states to grant inhabitants who have had their citizenship or right to residence transferred as a result of a territorial transition under Clause 1 a period of acclimatisation to their new reality, in terms of the change of jurisdiction that they have been subjected to:

    1. This period will be of a fair length, and grant the inhabitant in question enough time to integrate in their new nation;

    2. In cases where the inhabitant requests aid and/or guidance in their legal integration into the new jurisdiction, this assistance will be provided without charge, by the state;

    3. During this period, these inhabitants should be judged with a reasonable amount of clemency in mind where appropriate and necessary, should they fail to comply with the laws and rules of their new jurisdiction because of genuine legal ignorance;

    4. Clause 4c does not apply to inhabitants who could have reasonably known about the existence of a law or rule in their new jurisdiction, or through the use of common sense;

  6. Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of inhabitants affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will not be unduly infringed upon as a result of the transference of territories.


DRAFT 3:
Protecting Citizens During Territorial Transitions
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Mild



The General Assembly,

Aware of the territorial transitions between member states as part of trade agreements, or other diplomatic proceedings;

Affirming that it is the right of sovereign states to manage their territory in a manner that they see fit; yet

Concerned about the fate of the citizens that live on the lands that are affected by those territorial transitions;

Hereby:

  1. Mandates member states to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transitions as a result of economic or diplomatic proceedings without armed conflict or the the threat of such preceding them, will be properly aided and guided in the change of jurisdiction that they will be subjected to, in the following way:

    1. Citizens who reside within the territory that will be transitioned to another sovereign entity, will be extensively and in detail informed on the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose as a result of the territorial transition;

    2. No knowledge or information on the jurisdictional changes that citizens will be subjected to may be withheld from those affected by a territorial purchase and/or sale, especially when a citizen may be negatively impacted by a territorial transition of the aforementioned kind;

    3. Any information that may otherwise impact the citizens of member states who will be subjected to a territorial transition as described in Clause 1, either negatively or positively, will be shared with those citizens without interference or obstruction;

  2. Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

  3. Instructs member states to assist citizens who would choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, in the event that those citizens would be unable to see to their basic needs as a result of the relocation;

  4. Further requires member states to grant citizens who have had their citizenship transferred as a result of a territorial transition under Clause 1 a period of acclimatisation to their new reality, in terms of the change of jurisdiction that they have been subjected to:

    1. This period will be of a fair length, and grant the citizen in question enough time to integrate in their new nation;

    2. In cases where the citizen requests aid and/or guidance in their legal integration into the new jurisdiction, this assistance will be provided without charge, by the state;

    3. During this period, these citizens should be judged with a reasonable amount of clemency in mind where appropriate and necessary, should they fail to comply with the laws and rules of their new jurisdiction because of genuine legal ignorance;

    4. Clause 4c does not apply to citizens who could have reasonably known about the existence of a law or rule in their new jurisdiction, or through the use of common sense;

  5. Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of citizens affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will not be unduly infringed upon as a result of the transference of territories.


DRAFT 2:
Protecting Citizens During Territorial Transitions
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Mild



The General Assembly,

Aware of the transactions between member states that result in the transition of territories between them;

Affirming that it is the right of sovereign states to manage their territory in a manner that they see fit; yet

Concerned about the fate of the citizens that live on the lands that are affected by those territorial transitions;

Hereby:

  1. Mandates member states to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transitions as a result of territorial purchases and/or sales will be properly aided and guided in the change of jurisdiction that they will be subjected to, in the following way:

    1. Citizens who reside within the territory that will be either sold to or purchased by another sovereign entity, will be extensively and in detail informed on the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose as a result of the territorial transition;

    2. No knowledge or information on the jurisdictional changes that citizens will be subjected to may be withheld from those affected by a territorial purchase and/or sale, especially when a citizen may be negatively impacted by a territorial transition of the aforementioned kind;

    3. Any information that may otherwise impact the citizens of member states who will be subjected to a territorial transition as a result of territorial purchases and/or sales, either negatively or positively, will be shared with those citizens without interference or obstruction;

  2. Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

  3. Instructs member states to assist citizens who would choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, in the event that those citizens would be unable to see to their basic needs as a result of the relocation;

  4. Further requires member states to grant citizens who have had their citizenship transferred as a result of a territorial transition under Clause 1 a period of acclimatisation to their new reality, in terms of the change of jurisdiction that they have been subjected to:

    1. This period will be of a fair length, and grant the citizen in question enough time to integrate in their new nation;

    2. In cases where the citizen requests aid and/or guidance in their legal integration into the new jurisdiction, this assistance will be provided without charge, by the state;

    3. During this period, these citizens should be judged with a reasonable amount of clemency in mind where appropriate and necessary, should they fail to comply with the laws and rules of their new jurisdiction because of genuine legal ignorance;

    4. Clause 4c does not apply to citizens who could have reasonably known about the existence of a law or rule in their new jurisdiction, or through the use of common sense;

  5. Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of citizens affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will be preserved and maintained at all times during the transference of territories, and in the integrational period thereafter.


DRAFT 1:
Protecting Citizens During Territorial Transitions
Category: Civil Rights | Strength: Significant



The General Assembly,

Aware of the transactions between member states that result in the transition of territories between them;

Affirming that it is the right of sovereign states to manage their territory in a manner that they see fit; yet

Concerned about the fate of the citizens that live on the lands that are affected by those territorial transitions;

Hereby:

  1. Mandates member states to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transitions as a result of territorial purchases and/or sales will be properly aided and guided in the change of their civil and political rights and responsibilities, in the following way:

    1. Citizens who reside within the territory that will be either sold to or purchased by another sovereign entity, will be extensively and in detail informed on the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose as a result of the territorial transition;

    2. No knowledge or information on the gains or losses of civil and political rights may be withheld from the citizens affected by a territorial purchase and/or sale, especially when a citizen may be negatively impacted by a territorial transition of the aforementioned kind;

    3. Any information that may otherwise impact the citizens of member states who will be subjected to a territorial transition as a result of territorial purchases and/or sales, either negatively or positively, will be shared with those citizens without interference or obstruction;

  2. Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to freely relocate to another part of their nation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

  3. Instructs member states to ensure that citizens who choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, will be granted habitation and living conditions of a similar nature as the ones they had prior to the process of territorial transition;

  4. Further requires member states to grant citizens who have had their citizenship transferred as a result of a territorial transition under Clause 1 a period of acclimatisation to their new reality, in terms of their civil and political rights and responsibilities:

    1. This period will be of a fair length, and grant the citizen in question enough time to integrate in their new nation;

    2. During this period, these citizens must be judged with clemency in mind, should they fail to comply with a civil or political duty or responsibility that they previously had or did not have;

  5. Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of citizens affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will be preserved and maintained at all times.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Sat May 08, 2021 4:05 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:47 pm

On Citizens During Territorial Purchases and Sales

https://imperiumanglorum.wordpress.com/ ... g-with-on/

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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:00 pm

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Didn't you do something like this before or have I just completely forgotten?
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Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:05 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
On Citizens During Territorial Purchases and Sales

https://imperiumanglorum.wordpress.com/ ... g-with-on/

OOC: Agreed! I have altered the title accordingly, albeit I felt it wasn't necessary to list it under an entirely new draft, so I kept it in the current draft.

Tinhampton wrote:Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Didn't you do something like this before or have I just completely forgotten?

Vyn Nysen: "Our delegation didn't work on this topic before, yet we found a similar project in the archives of this assembly. We believed the project to have enough merit to continue it with a new, Daarwyrthian perspective."

OOC: Yes, I worked on a draft with a similar topic before, but put it on ice a long while back. I decided to pick up the topic, but approach it from another angle.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby North Supreria » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:56 pm

North Supreria thinks the category and strength are good, as described now. We also believe it is important to establish people's rights in such situations. North Supreria appreciates that an effort is being made to make this international law.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 pm

North Supreria wrote:North Supreria thinks the category and strength are good, as described now. We also believe it is important to establish people's rights in such situations. North Supreria appreciates that an effort is being made to make this international law.

Vyn Nysen: "We are grateful for your nation's vote of confidence, Ambassador. It is very much appreciated."
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:44 am

OOC: Any new comments or thoughts on the current draft? :)
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lumermeyr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:57 am

d. During this period, these citizens must be judged with clemency in mind, should they fail to comply with a civil or political duty or responsibility that they previously had or did not have;


"The Lumer WA Embassy congratulates you and applauds such benevolent approach, but would like to point out: ignorantia iuris nocet, and it could prove a serious argument against unknowledgeable new citizens. We suggest encouraging special training courses or other means of legal integration, possibly even demand such territorial purchases be outstretched processes, and for the transition of territory to finalise only after years if not decades."
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:06 am

Lumermeyr wrote:
d. During this period, these citizens must be judged with clemency in mind, should they fail to comply with a civil or political duty or responsibility that they previously had or did not have;


"The Lumer WA Embassy congratulates you and applauds such benevolent approach, but would like to point out: ignorantia iuris nocet, and it could prove a serious argument against unknowledgeable new citizens. We suggest encouraging special training courses or other means of legal integration, possibly even demand such territorial purchases be outstretched processes, and for the transition of territory to finalise only after years if not decades."

"Ambassador, we recognise that you do have a point, which is why we are glad you have pointed this out to us, as a different approach to this problem might indeed be more beneficial. It has to be noted however that territorial transitions can be incredibly invasive in the rights and duties of citizens, and they may sincerely not be aware of all the rights and duties expected of them in their new state. In our eyes, it seems fair to take this into account should such a citizen break a law they were truly unaware of.

However, we will look into possible approaches along the lines of what you have suggested, Ambassador, and will incorporate it into the draft once we have found a suitably fair alternative. The issue which we perceive with your approach, while very reasonable however, is that it would lengthen the process of such territorial transitions significantly. We have concerns whether member states would be appreciative of such a lengthening of the process.

However, it is a fair and reasonable approach, and therefore it is one of the first alternatives that we will consider to the clause that you have highlighted. If you have any further suggestions in regard to this clause and potential alternatives, we'd be more than happy to hear them, Ambassador."
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bieberfelde » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:09 am

Sounds ok.

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Postby Lumermeyr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:28 am

"Yes, we haven't thought of that: in case of the purchase restricting citizens' civil and political rights, can the state and its judiciary really be trusted to provide a fair and clement trial for citizens that haven't had the time to get acquainted with the new law? Perhaps international committees would be of help towards the populace, although we understand such foreign interference with internal judiciary and, maybe even partly, sovereignty could be viewed as unacceptable by more isolationist members, even in good faith.
But would it require intervention with the judiciary? such committees would have to serve at most as groups of attorneys available for the people of transferred territories . In this case however, it would simply be legal defence, and without much power other than countering ignorantia iuris nocet with, hypothetically, low harmfulness of act. Perhaps it should be entrusted with the member nations altogether?"
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:33 am

Lumermeyr wrote:"Yes, we haven't thought of that: in case of the purchase restricting citizens' civil and political rights, can the state and its judiciary really be trusted to provide a fair and clement trial for citizens that haven't had the time to get acquainted with the new law? Perhaps international committees would be of help towards the populace, although we understand such foreign interference with internal judiciary and, maybe even partly, sovereignty could be viewed as unacceptable by more isolationist members, even in good faith.
But would it require intervention with the judiciary? such committees would have to serve at most as groups of attorneys available for the people of transferred territories . In this case however, it would simply be legal defence, and without much power other than countering ignorantia iuris nocet with, hypothetically, low harmfulness of act. Perhaps it should be entrusted with the member nations altogether?"

"Could you clarify the last part of your statement, Ambassador? Do you mean to say that the highlighted clause should be left to the discretion of the member states?

While I understand the reasoning behind it, it feels as if we'd abandon citizens to the whims of the state they have transitioned to, especially if their civil and political rights would diminish. Leaving it entirely to member states would defeat the purpose of this resolution, I feel, which is to give a form of protection to citizens affected by such territorial transitions."
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:50 am

Daarwyrth wrote:We'd especially like to receive feedback on the chosen category, as well as the strength.

My feeling is that territorial transitions in the form of buying and selling are rare, likely to affect only a small proportion of individuals on a small number of occasions. I'm not sure that the strength should therefore be significant.

... properly aided and guided in the change of their civil and political rights and responsibilities... the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose...

Given the category you're drafting under I can appreciate the focus on civil and political rights, but would it not be of practical use to inform people about all the legal and administrative implications of the change of jurisdiction, for example in areas such as taxation and social security that don't obviously fall under the heading of rights.

Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to freely relocate to another part of their nation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

What does "freely" mean in this context? Presumably citizens could be prevented from relocating into an area restricted because it's a nature reserve, war zone, privately owned etc

Instructs member states to ensure that citizens who choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, will be granted habitation and living conditions of a similar nature as the ones they had prior to the process of territorial transition

For clarity, does this require the government to give relocating citizens a free home and guarantee them work? If so, can they sell the home they're leaving and keep the proceeds? What if they currently live in poverty or substandard conditions? Will the government ensure they are placed in conditions of poverty again? In terms of the clause above, can they freely move to an area where living conditions and habitation of a similar nature don't exist?


...should they fail to comply with a civil or political duty or responsibility that they previously had or did not have

This needs to be worded more clearly. Logically, every responsibility, whether related to the transition or not, is one that a citizen previously either had or did not have.

Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of citizens affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will be preserved and maintained at all times.

I'm guessing you don't intend to order the government to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transition never have accidents, get cancer or in any way have their safety and wellbeing compromised, but that is what this says.
Last edited by Uan aa Boa on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Lumermeyr » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:02 am

I'm guessing you don't intend to order the government to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transition never have accidents, get cancer or in any way have their safety and wellbeing compromised, but that is what this says.

"We would like to point out that, according to the rule impossibilium nulla obligatio est, it does not, as no state is capable of preventing accidents or health issues such as cancer."
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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:02 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:We'd especially like to receive feedback on the chosen category, as well as the strength.

My feeling is that territorial transitions in the form of buying and selling are rare, likely to affect only a small proportion of individuals on a small number of occasions. I'm not sure that the strength should therefore be significant.

... properly aided and guided in the change of their civil and political rights and responsibilities... the rights and responsibilities that they will obtain, and/or lose...

Given the category you're drafting under I can appreciate the focus on civil and political rights, but would it not be of practical use to inform people about all the legal and administrative implications of the change of jurisdiction, for example in areas such as taxation and social security that don't obviously fall under the heading of rights.

Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to freely relocate to another part of their nation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;

What does "freely" mean in this context? Presumably citizens could be prevented from relocating into an area restricted because it's a nature reserve, war zone, privately owned etc

Instructs member states to ensure that citizens who choose to relocate to a different part of their country as a result of their right as stated in Clause 2, will be granted habitation and living conditions of a similar nature as the ones they had prior to the process of territorial transition

For clarity, does this require the government to give relocating citizens a free home and guarantee them work? If so, can they sell the home they're leaving and keep the proceeds? What if they currently live in poverty or substandard conditions? Will the government ensure they are placed in conditions of poverty again? In terms of the clause above, can they freely move to an area where living conditions and habitation of a similar nature don't exist?


...should they fail to comply with a civil or political duty or responsibility that they previously had or did not have

This needs to be worded more clearly. Logically, every responsibility, whether related to the transition or not, is one that a citizen previously either had or did not have.

Orders member states to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of citizens affected by territorial transitions as per Clause 1 will be preserved and maintained at all times.

I'm guessing you don't intend to order the government to ensure that citizens affected by territorial transition never have accidents, get cancer or in any way have their safety and wellbeing compromised, but that is what this says.

"Valid points and criticism, Ambassador, we will work your commentary into the next draft, especially the last comment. While it is our hope that states indeed take care of their citizens in the best possible way at all times, we naturally mean this particular part in relation to the transition process."
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 03, 2021 3:33 am

OOC: Sorry brevity, but about to head out the door - does the current proposal say that the nations doing the peaceful land transfer should allow the people living on the piece of land to move into the nation which the piece of land was previously part of, at that nation's expense? Because it'd make no sense to force the extra costs on the nation that's just buying the land (and solid infrastructure, I guess), not the people, because people can't be sold and bought legally.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon May 03, 2021 3:35 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Sorry brevity, but about to head out the door - does the current proposal say that the nations doing the peaceful land transfer should allow the people living on the piece of land to move into the nation which the piece of land was previously part of, at that nation's expense? Because it'd make no sense to force the extra costs on the nation that's just buying the land (and solid infrastructure, I guess), not the people, because people can't be sold and bought legally.

OOC: A valid point that was also caught earlier, and will be mended in the next draft :)
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon May 03, 2021 1:34 pm

OOC: New draft is up with the commentary and feedback that has been given up until this point edited in! New comments are of course more than welcome ;)
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Postby Uan aa Boa » Tue May 04, 2021 2:49 am

The new draft is much improved and addresses the concerns I previously raised.

Are you sure you want this to apply only to territorial transitions that involve sale and purchase? This is a rare event which in the real world has happened only 3 times in the past century. I can appreciate you wouldn't want it to apply to all transitions. In the event of Catalan independence, for example, it would be unreasonable to require the Spanish government to help people move out of Catalonia. But how about saying all cases where a transition from one state to another is agreed without armed conflict or the the threat of it? This would cover cases such as exchange of territories, or ceding of territory as part of a trade agreement.

I still think clause 5 is over-inclusive. You've shortened the government's obligation to a transitional period, but still made it responsible for ensuring that all aspects of safety and welfare are protected. The state can't reasonably be required to ensure that nobody falls off a ladder. What exactly do you want this clause to make governments do, over and above what the other clauses provide?

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Postby Daarwyrth » Tue May 04, 2021 6:04 am

Uan aa Boa wrote:The new draft is much improved and addresses the concerns I previously raised.

Are you sure you want this to apply only to territorial transitions that involve sale and purchase? This is a rare event which in the real world has happened only 3 times in the past century. I can appreciate you wouldn't want it to apply to all transitions. In the event of Catalan independence, for example, it would be unreasonable to require the Spanish government to help people move out of Catalonia. But how about saying all cases where a transition from one state to another is agreed without armed conflict or the the threat of it? This would cover cases such as exchange of territories, or ceding of territory as part of a trade agreement.

I still think clause 5 is over-inclusive. You've shortened the government's obligation to a transitional period, but still made it responsible for ensuring that all aspects of safety and welfare are protected. The state can't reasonably be required to ensure that nobody falls off a ladder. What exactly do you want this clause to make governments do, over and above what the other clauses provide?

Vyn Nysen: "We agree with your assessment, Ambassador, and have changed the text of the proposal accordingly, to encompass all territorial transitions without armed conflict or the threat of such preceding it. It is a much better approach to what the resolution proposal intends to do, and will apply to a larger group of affected citizens.

We have once again altered the phrasing of Clause 5, to hopefully better reflect our intent regarding this Clause. However, if the new wording is still over-inclusive or over-protective in your opinion, we will proceed to remove it from the proposal draft.

We are grateful for your commentary and assistance, Ambassador, it has proven invaluable to our delegation."
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Postby Calamari Lands » Thu May 06, 2021 7:01 am

OOC: I really like this proposal, but as a Spanish citizen I found it funny how Catalonia got brought up as an example - with how controversial its independence is, letting people move in or out if it happens would cause a lot of issues and instability, and would probably be met with not enough buildings to accomodate Catalonian citizens that would want to stay Spanish. I was going to say thet the current draft looks completely fine, but this made me think that independences are a complicated issue that perhaps should be tackled in more detail if it's included in the proposal how it is now.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Thu May 06, 2021 7:08 am

Calamari Lands wrote:OOC: I really like this proposal, but as a Spanish citizen I found it funny how Catalonia got brought up as an example - with how controversial its independence is, letting people move in or out if it happens would cause a lot of issues and instability, and would probably be met with not enough buildings to accomodate Catalonian citizens that would want to stay Spanish. I was going to say thet the current draft looks completely fine, but this made me think that independences are a complicated issue that perhaps should be tackled in more detail if it's included in the proposal how it is now.

OOC: Could you elaborate a little on the last part of your post? :)
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Postby Calamari Lands » Thu May 06, 2021 7:35 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
Calamari Lands wrote:OOC: I really like this proposal, but as a Spanish citizen I found it funny how Catalonia got brought up as an example - with how controversial its independence is, letting people move in or out if it happens would cause a lot of issues and instability, and would probably be met with not enough buildings to accomodate Catalonian citizens that would want to stay Spanish. I was going to say thet the current draft looks completely fine, but this made me think that independences are a complicated issue that perhaps should be tackled in more detail if it's included in the proposal how it is now.

OOC: Could you elaborate a little on the last part of your post? :)

OOC: "Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;"
The potential (yet minor) problem that I see with this part of the proposal is that if a territory gains independence in some way but a great percentage of its populace want to relocate, there may not be enough places for them to relocate to, creating pontential housing crises. Since you make their relocation a right, it does leave that small room for trouble.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Thu May 06, 2021 7:56 am

Calamari Lands wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:OOC: Could you elaborate a little on the last part of your post? :)

OOC: "Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;"
The potential (yet minor) problem that I see with this part of the proposal is that if a territory gains independence in some way but a great percentage of its populace want to relocate, there may not be enough places for them to relocate to, creating pontential housing crises. Since you make their relocation a right, it does leave that small room for trouble.

OOC: A valid observation. The independence would have to occur non-violently however, as per Clause 1 this resolution only applies to those types of economic or diplomatic proceedings. One could argue that potential relocation would have to be negotiated during those proceedings, which would partially solve the issue. Do you think that an extra provision for such a situation would be useful in this resolution? If so, do you have any suggestions as to what shape it should take?
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Postby Calamari Lands » Thu May 06, 2021 10:04 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
Calamari Lands wrote:OOC: "Requires member states to grant citizens who would be affected by a territorial transition as outlined in Clause 1 the right to relocate to another part of their nation suitable for civilian habitation, should that citizen be unwilling to have their citizenship be transferred to another sovereign state concurrently with the territorial transition itself;"
The potential (yet minor) problem that I see with this part of the proposal is that if a territory gains independence in some way but a great percentage of its populace want to relocate, there may not be enough places for them to relocate to, creating pontential housing crises. Since you make their relocation a right, it does leave that small room for trouble.

OOC: A valid observation. The independence would have to occur non-violently however, as per Clause 1 this resolution only applies to those types of economic or diplomatic proceedings. One could argue that potential relocation would have to be negotiated during those proceedings, which would partially solve the issue. Do you think that an extra provision for such a situation would be useful in this resolution? If so, do you have any suggestions as to what shape it should take?

OOC: Thing is even if the independence process is non-violent some countries may allow independence with only, like, 60% of the vote in a referendum. What about the other 40%? That's a lot of people and considering how varied nations are we have to take into account those possibilities.
I'm not exactly sure what form it could take, after all drawing lines is always complicated - I would probably put some sort of small limitation clause when it comes to relocation and citizenship in independences specifying what we've discussed (maybe, if there isn't enough space to relocate everyone who wants to be relocated, they can have double citizenship to help with a future relocation?).
☆☆☆☆ Glory to Calamari Lands ☆☆☆☆
Proud members of Mariner Trench's Regional Government:
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> Mariner of RP
> Senator
Authorship -> SC#350, Commend Honeydewistania

IC: Comrade Vanya, WA Delegacy representative.

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