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[PASSED] Military Death Penalty Ban

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Illu-chi
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Founded: Feb 01, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Illu-chi » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:12 pm

Jedinsto wrote:
Illu-chi wrote: The illu-chian government and military does not support violence but sees it as necessary to show the population of the losing side that they were wrong and to make the population understand they lost. What you call bloodthirst I call the end to a conflict of interest and I know what bloodthirst means.

Executing the opposition in a war to show them that they're wrong? "Yes, we ended the lives of our PoWs, we are right, you are wrong." What type of logic is that? This is literally just saying that murdering somebody is morally right. That's no stretch.
I should have been more clear about who the illu-chian military executes at the end of a war. The illu-chian military only executes POWs or civilians who have evidence of being apart of a war crime or are considered to be likely to cause unrest or cause another war with illu-chi. The illu-chian military prefers a guillotine with a large crowd in attendance in order for him/her to serve his/her death penalty.

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Illu-chi
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Illu-chi » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:20 pm

The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.

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Djenri
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Founded: Mar 25, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Djenri » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:37 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Us the Djens dont think so we of use translate so misspell some times but no do not do it."

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Daarwyrth
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Daarwyrth » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 pm

Illu-chi wrote:The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.

OOC: 423 votes difference is still a significant difference. As it currently stands, there is a majority against the Military Death Penalty, and I expect the different between 'for' and 'against' to get only bigger, in favour of the 'for' vote.
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Astrobolt
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Founded: Jul 30, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Astrobolt » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:03 pm

Illu-chi wrote:The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.


OOC: Not another "big delegate" complaint. As of the time of this post, individual votes are about 56% for. Total votes (including delegates) are about 62% for. Delegates are not having a disproportionate impact on the results. I will also note that many "big delegates" vote based on the results of polls conducted on off-site forums.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:10 pm

Illu-chi wrote:The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.

Is this another "WA is corrupt because big delegates control voting" rant?
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New Visayan Islands
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Visayan Islands » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:02 pm

Djenri wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Us the Djens dont think so we of use translate so misspell some times but no do not do it."

Good day!

I see you're new to the forums; what happened here is called Malicious Quote Editing, which under the Rules is considered flamebait. Please take this as a reminder to review said Rules for an enjoyable stay.


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Vikanias
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Founded: May 01, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Vikanias » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:38 pm

No, i can kidnap my people and give them the death penalty whenever i want, because the egg gods say so.

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Vikanias
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Vikanias » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:38 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Illu-chi wrote:The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.

Is this another "WA is corrupt because big delegates control voting" rant?


Y e s

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Lumio Magika
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Lumio Magika » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:47 pm

Illu-chi wrote:The military death penalty ban vote is a perfect example of big delegates subverting the vote. As of my last checking The individual nation vote was 1,885 for and 1,462 against meaning only 423 votes separate them but with the big delegates it is right now a land slide.


Oh, for the love of-...a little part of me dies every time I see this happening. It's the same for raiding; sure it isn't nice, but it's a part of the game for a reason. complaining won't change it. And even then, it isn't like these delegates vote independently of their region members. A lot of them vote based off of an off-site poll.


And now for my contribution to the relevant conversation. I'm partial to this proposal. It's well-intentioned, but I'm unsure as to the possible repercussions of it. As stated earlier, the passing of this would likely lead to a repeal of all other anti-death-penalty proposals, which could possibly create several loopholes.
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Test of Belief
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Founded: Mar 06, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Test of Belief » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:04 pm

I'm pro-death penalty, and I think nations should be able to decide for themselves whether they want capital punishment or not. I'm thinking of voting against.

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Goobergunchia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Goobergunchia » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:43 pm

Liberty and Unity wrote:I see your point. If a pedophiliac acts upon his or her pedophilic impulses, they deserve death. But if they don't, they deserve professional mental help.


As the representative of the delegation which authored the first major international legislation against such activity, we must indicate our firm disagreement with the statement from the ambassador from Liberty and Unity. We have voted in favor of the resolution at vote.

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Jakkonia
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Founded: Feb 01, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jakkonia » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 pm

The Jakkonian Delegation once again questions why this resolution is even taking up the valuable time of this here assembly. We of the Republic see no use in a ban on the military use of the death penalty and in fact see it as a detriment to justice everywhere. The Jakkonian Delegation sees this resolution as a statement that criminals of all kinds, even mad dictators and tyrants, terrorists, and more can get away with whatever they wish and never experience what they deserve for it.

Hundreds of thousands of people could die and yet because of a mere WA resolution, blind to the reality we live in, we as independent nations cannot exercise our right to deal with these criminals like the monsters they are. There is no excuse for this rather blind and careless resolution to even have been brought to the floor in the eyes of the Jakkonian Delegation and the people of the nation. We also wish to ask wat exactly are you supposed to do with war criminals if you cannot execute them? People like that are dangerous to the innocent, law abiding, masses. You can lock them up of course but that still allows the hope of escape for them. It seems entirely too risky to the Jakkonian Delegation.

The Jakkonian Delegation votes whole heartedly against this resolution.

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GreaterFrance
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Founded: Mar 20, 2021
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby GreaterFrance » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:48 am

Looks like the gap between for and against significantly decreased, let's see how it will evolve.
Last edited by GreaterFrance on Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ultimus Tritonis
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Postby Ultimus Tritonis » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:11 am

Traitors burn at the stake, fully against.
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Straona
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Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:35 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
GreaterFrance wrote:
Of course death penalty should happen ONLY if we are certain that the judged person is the criminal what is mostly what happens.

"Ah, yes, because the justice system is the embodiment of flawless perfection and impossible fallibility. It is easy to say "only if we are really sure", but how can you be really sure? There is no way to be infallibly certain whether someone is innocent or not. History has given us many cases of that."

With all due respect if you got the death penalty you did something really horrible to get it. There is no mistake when you get it.

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Jedinsto
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Founded: Nov 12, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jedinsto » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:37 am

Straona wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:"Ah, yes, because the justice system is the embodiment of flawless perfection and impossible fallibility. It is easy to say "only if we are really sure", but how can you be really sure? There is no way to be infallibly certain whether someone is innocent or not. History has given us many cases of that."

With all due respect if you got the death penalty you did something really horrible to get it. There is no mistake when you get it.

Wrong, it is widely abused IRL and in NS. Even with the death penalty ban, nations can still conscript their criminals to execute them. What you said is just naive and incorrect.
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Kingdom of Communists
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Founded: Mar 25, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kingdom of Communists » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:28 am

Qvait wrote:It's my first time drafting a resolution, so I'm open to suggestions on this.

Recognizing the utility of GA#535 "Death Penalty Ban" in abolishing its application under most circumstances,

Concerned that the remaining applications of the death penalty are injurious and inhumane to people who are sentenced to death for crimes they may not have even committed,

Convinced that the death penalty is a draconian judicial punishment often used in the name of revenge and wrongfully rationalized as justice,

Appalled that exceptions can be made in the application of the death penalty,

Confident that alternative sentencing exists to produce fair and effective justice for victims of heinous crimes,

Determined to discontinue all remaining uses of the death penalty,

The World Assembly hereby,
  1. Abolishes the death penalty for all crimes under the purview of military law;
  2. Prohibits states from deporting persons to states that may seek the application of the death penalty against them;
  3. In regards to Article 2, an exception shall be provided for receiving states that enter into a lawful, written contract that assures the extraditing state that the persons in question shall not receive the death penalty.


We oppose this proposal and Strongly Advises You to vote against for a variety of reasons.

In the Clause “ Confident that alternative sentencing exists to produce fair and effective justice for victims of heinous crimes “. Military law is established in nations to protect crimes such as genocide and use of Unauthorized / outlawed Weapons. Many nations should reserve the right to death sentence to theses crimes as if you see how they are actually committed and how It Hugely Impacts Military and society in negative ways such as massive deaths and economic failure and recessions. Also the use of the word “ Confident “ is not a very professional way to write because proposals in WA are meant to improve the world absolutely and confident is more like a personal feeling / sense and not a suitable word to use for a proposal.
Also in the clause word “ Used for revenge “, Military crimes are made to protect the military and nation from certain crimes. Revenge isn’t what the purpose military is for and a punishment for a crime committed is certainly normal and not considered revenge because law is unlike kids fighting and one needs revenge, no revenge exists in any / little nations military law, which instead is meant to protect victims from such crimes.
In the clause words where you said
who are sentenced to death for crimes they may not have even committed,

That is very unlikely and even in nations in dictatorships, this is still rare and military sentences to death are valid sentences as courts and the general public can prove that this crime was committed.
This also relates to the Nationstates policy, called capital punishment, which I sure that applies to military aspects too and this law is invading into our military and sentencing rights in my opinion.

Overall, Many flaws, and please vote against for the reasons I stated above and much more others already pointed out.
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Straona
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:29 am

Jedinsto wrote:
Straona wrote:With all due respect if you got the death penalty you did something really horrible to get it. There is no mistake when you get it.

Wrong, it is widely abused IRL and in NS. Even with the death penalty ban, nations can still conscript their criminals to execute them. What you said is just naive and incorrect.

Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.

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Jedinsto
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Founded: Nov 12, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jedinsto » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:34 am

Straona wrote:
Jedinsto wrote:Wrong, it is widely abused IRL and in NS. Even with the death penalty ban, nations can still conscript their criminals to execute them. What you said is just naive and incorrect.

Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.

People literally get executed for being gay. IRL. Do I really have to prove that to you? Take a look at this. And for people who are that intent on executing people in NS, they will take a loophole when they can.
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Kingdom of Communists
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Founded: Mar 25, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kingdom of Communists » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:35 am

Straona wrote:
Jedinsto wrote:Wrong, it is widely abused IRL and in NS. Even with the death penalty ban, nations can still conscript their criminals to execute them. What you said is just naive and incorrect.

Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.


Hello, Straona, that is a strong defense and in common sense is correct. I like to add on that most regimes and governments don’t like torturing and sentencing criminals to death anyway, they are reserved for the most troubled of the most dangerous criminals because there is practically no reason to do so otherwise as you stated
It is a waste of resources and soldiers

Sentencing many people to death is probably a heavy load for their international and foreign relations so they will try to keep law fair anyway so this proposal does little.
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Kingdom of Communists
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Founded: Mar 25, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kingdom of Communists » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:36 am

Jedinsto wrote:
Straona wrote:Where is evidence of anyone in NS let alone IRL doing what you just described? You’re calling me naive but you don’t even give me evidence. You know how stupid that sounds? Why would somebody conscript a criminal then execute them? That’s a waste of resources and soldiers.

People literally get executed for being gay. IRL. Do I really have to prove that to you? Take a look at this. And for people who are that intent on executing people in NS, they will take a loophole when they can.


Wrong, this is about military crimes, I support non-discrimination and stuff but this proposal is about military and not gay and homosexual people’s rights.
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Jedinsto
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Founded: Nov 12, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jedinsto » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:46 am

Kingdom of Communists wrote:
Jedinsto wrote:People literally get executed for being gay. IRL. Do I really have to prove that to you? Take a look at this. And for people who are that intent on executing people in NS, they will take a loophole when they can.


Wrong, this is about military crimes, I support non-discrimination and stuff but this proposal is about military and not gay and homosexual people’s rights.

I was referring to gay people being executed to make a point that it is abused. The death penalty is supposed to be banned for basically everything in the WA, but it's not that hard to conscript your people and court-martial them for whatever reason whether they're guilty or not, unfortunately.
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Kingdom of Communists
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Founded: Mar 25, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Kingdom of Communists » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:50 am

Jedinsto wrote:
Kingdom of Communists wrote:
Wrong, this is about military crimes, I support non-discrimination and stuff but this proposal is about military and not gay and homosexual people’s rights.

I was referring to gay people being executed to make a point that it is abused. The death penalty is supposed to be banned for basically everything in the WA, but it's not that hard to conscript your people and court-martial them for whatever reason whether they're guilty or not, unfortunately.


Honestly, you are overreacting to death penalty and you actually should never worry about it, I have to repeat that this is rarely abused and this proposal is basically nothing but pieces of paper.
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Jedinsto
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Postby Jedinsto » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:54 am

Kingdom of Communists wrote:
Jedinsto wrote:I was referring to gay people being executed to make a point that it is abused. The death penalty is supposed to be banned for basically everything in the WA, but it's not that hard to conscript your people and court-martial them for whatever reason whether they're guilty or not, unfortunately.


Honestly, you are overreacting to death penalty and you actually should never worry about it, I have to repeat that this is rarely abused and this proposal is basically nothing but pieces of paper.

You misunderstand, if the WA, a place where we have the power to prevent misuse of the death penalty, did not exist, I would legalize the death penalty in my nation, as it is my choice on how to implement it and it would not be abused. I cannot say the same about other nations, and it makes no difference to me whether mass murderers rot away in a cell for the rest of their lives or if they are executed, so I choose instead to let them live for the sake of the undeserving victims of the death penalty in other nations. This proposal is not worthless or a waste of paper, it's rather significant, and it doesn't make sense to oppose a proposal due to its strength anyways.
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