NATION

PASSWORD

Preserve the Death Penalty (Ideas)

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

Advertisement

Remove ads

Do you support the complete abolisment of the death Penalty

Poll ended at Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:18 pm

1. No
11
35%
2. Yes
18
58%
3. Contested
2
6%
 
Total votes : 31

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10291
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:05 pm

Zoigai wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:
1. How does it serve humanity? Simply asserting that it does is woefully unconvincing.

2. If I just said 'it does not serve humanity today' would you suddenly abandon this draft and swap over to my abolitionist position? You need to give warrants as to why your claim is true.

3. Is it just?

4. Does it rehabilitate anyone?

5. Does it deter anyone?

6. Does it incapacitate anyone anymore than the alternatives?

7. Does it save any money relative to the alternatives?

1. By getting rid of Dangerous criminals who cant be rehabilitated or bound in prisons
2. No
3.That is the main purpose
4.Yes
5. It saves much more money

How does the death penalty rehabilitate anyone?

How is it just? In the United States, ‘racial disparities [in the death penalty] has been evident since colonial times’. Carol Steiker and Jordan Steiker, ‘The American death penalty and the (in)visibility of race’ (2015) 82 U Chic L Rev 243, 243.

Why does saving money deter anything?

You have huge holes in your arguments. Specifically, you haven't produced any reasons to believe them. Some of the responses seem utterly implausible, because apparently we are to rehabilitate the dead. Is this the best we can expect from the anti-abolitionists?

Author: 1 SC and 42 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:54 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Zoigai wrote:1. By getting rid of Dangerous criminals who cant be rehabilitated or bound in prisons
2. No
3.That is the main purpose
4.Yes
5. It saves much more money

How does the death penalty rehabilitate anyone?

How is it just? In the United States, ‘racial disparities [in the death penalty] has been evident since colonial times’. Carol Steiker and Jordan Steiker, ‘The American death penalty and the (in)visibility of race’ (2015) 82 U Chic L Rev 243, 243.

Why does saving money deter anything?

You have huge holes in your arguments. Specifically, you haven't produced any reasons to believe them. Some of the responses seem utterly implausible, because apparently we are to rehabilitate the dead. Is this the best we can expect from the anti-abolitionists?

I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.

User avatar
Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5166
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tinfect » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:56 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.


OOC:
I suspect demanding exquisitely well-reasoned and stated positions of a new player who, for the record, doesn't even have a draft, is rather silly.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Preliminary trials of Military Doctrinal Reform prototypes to begin; IRPC 5-115, 5-298, 5-076 public details, Project Lead interviews released | Aeravahn occupation expands to 17% of the Exterior Territories, Internal Security orders full-stop to Civilian expeditions to Exterior | TCO - Vigilant Star declared missing following exit of Iraet orbital region | Indomitable Bastard #283
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:58 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.


OOC:
I suspect demanding exquisitely well-reasoned and stated positions of a new player who, for the record, doesn't even have a draft, is rather silly.

OOC: I'm not demanding anything exquisite. All I desire is simple, logical arguments. Arguments that could be come up as part of an elevator pitch, for instance.

User avatar
Comfed
Diplomat
 
Posts: 853
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:30 am

Fun fact: In the US, the death penalty is often used as a tool by prosecutors to threaten those who are accused of a crime of pleading guilty.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
"You think this is abuse? I'll SHOW you abuse."
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

Put this in your sig if you passed biology and know that gender and sex are not the same thing.

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:29 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Straona wrote:You can kill an “innocent” if they committed one of the most heinous crimes possible. At that point they are not innocent. If you commit a crime you are no longer innocent. Not everyone is going to reform themselves after prison. They will just go right back to what they were doing before. Dictators who commit heinous war crimes and soldiers who follow their orders without question do not deserve to sit comfortably in prison. I am sick of the WA governing all nations on policy just because some of them find the justifiable murder of a WAR criminal as wrong even though there’s no proof that they will reform.

You misunderstood. People can be falsely accused and executed, while the real perpetrators go unpunished.

Zoigai wrote:You cant execute an innocent if you know where the accused was during the time of the crime.

And yet it happens all the time.


That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

User avatar
Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:17 am

Straona wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:You misunderstood. People can be falsely accused and executed, while the real perpetrators go unpunished.


And yet it happens all the time.


That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:18 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Straona wrote:
That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.


“No it really shouldn’t ambassador. You and those who keep sending these sham proposals go too far. There must always be a way to swiftly punish the worst of the worst. Torture sometimes isn’t enough to make them atone. Some will never atone unless they die. That’s how it works in the real world. Not all criminals especially those who deserve the death penalty will ever change, they’ll just go back to doing what they were doing while or before committing their crimes. People need to figure that out. Using emotions and idealism as I say, are tools for children who don’t know that the world will chew you up and spit you out with those ideals. Those kinds of ideals will always be crushed by realism and facts. Yes there’s human error. You wanna know why, people are far too emotional. That’s why matters concerning the death penalty I let a robot deal with that so the margin of error and likely mistake is decreased tremendously. Abolishment of the death penalty won’t solve human error. All it will do is satisfy a fantasy people have that everyone is equal in court. Sadly no they aren’t depending on the crime they commit.

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:20 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Straona wrote:
That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.


How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

User avatar
Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:25 am

Straona wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.


How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

Robots are unable to account for weighing mitigating circumstances effectively when considering a determination.

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:35 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Straona wrote:
How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

Robots are unable to account for weighing mitigating circumstances effectively when considering a determination.


Circumstances shouldn’t matter in a court of law. The only exception that comes to mind let’s say I killed someone but only because they were about to kill me and my child. That’s self defense. That’s the only time circumstances are necessary in a court of law. Did people deserving of the death penalty kill because of self defense? Of course not. They killed either by following orders or for sheer pleasure. There are no circumstances. Someone deserving of the death penalty should have their crime be mitigated. If you are sentenced to death you committed one of the most severe crimes imaginable. Maybe in smaller courts a human aid to the robot is necessary to mitigate such circumstances that you probably would bring up. But for something like the death penalty there is not mitigation of such an awful crime.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10291
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:41 am

Circumstances are always important in a court of law: mens rea is required in many kinds of crime, which makes identical behaviour illegal in some instances.

Author: 1 SC and 42 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:49 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Circumstances are always important in a court of law: mens rea is required in many kinds of crime, which makes identical behaviour illegal in some instances.

Just because the accused acknowledges their crime doesn’t resolve them of it. Plus we’re talking about the death penalty so no circumstances are necessary because there are no circumstances for why someone committed a crime such as mass genocide. They already acknowledged their crime the moment they committed. Your claim at least for the death penalty is moot.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10291
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

No, I'm saying you don't understand what a crime is. A crime is a nexus both of action and of intent. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Ignoring mens rea creates an incoherent conception of criminal law.

Author: 1 SC and 42 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:01 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:No, I'm saying you don't understand what a crime is. A crime is a nexus both of action and of intent. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Ignoring mens rea creates an incoherent conception of criminal law.

Oh I know what a crime is. It involves both intent and the action yes. But the idea of intent and conscience goes out the window with genocide. You forget the Nuremberg Trials? Most of the defendants argued they were following orders as their intent, you know what happened? Hanged by the neck. The only ones who got out of it were those who were medically unfit for trial or were found to not have any connection to what the Nazis were doing because they were away at foreign countries. Let’s say a nation in today’s world, their military leaders did something if not as bad, almost as bad as what the Nazis did, would you want the ones who orchestrated such atrocities to continue to live in a prison? I’ll say what I think most people would say, No. If you said you would want them to sit in jail you’re hypocritical. If you are sentenced to death you would’ve had to do something so awful to deserve it. I’m not saying we make a proposal that preserves it. I’m saying a ban is ridiculous, moronic, idiotic, idealistic bs. Just people looking for attention grasping at straws like a child who are using the WA to get what they want even if it’s a massive overreach.

User avatar
Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:12 am

^
(Incoming loooong reply)

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General Assembly

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Molopovia

Advertisement

Remove ads