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[DEFEATED] Protecting Sapient Life

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Tinhampton
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Posts: 7984
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:47 am

Draft #2 is now up for your (presumably imminent =p) perusal.
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Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 am

Tinhampton wrote:Draft #2 is now up for your (presumably imminent =p) perusal.

My support stands :p

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:54 pm

While

prohibits members from deporting any person to a nation where said person faces a reasonable possibility of being sentenced to death for the crimes they have been charged with committing

is not necessarily necessary due to GA 197 'Banning Extrajudicial Transfer', keep it.

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Tinhampton
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:58 am

Will go to vote between minor update today - i.e. a few minutes from now - and minor update on Monday 1st February.

AS OF 1658 GMT ON THURSDAY: Approvals: 71 out of 58 needed (Tinhampton, Greater Cesnica, Mikeswill, Aredita, Some People on Planet Arcadia, Katanistan, Nebrascotialandia, CoraSpia, Dogeen, Panther, Silver-Tree, The New North Republic, Sail Nation, New Parisian Communes, Sylh Alanor, Hyperico, Ikania, Mekhania, Xukong, Romano-Campania, Imperium Anglorum, Potaen, Russia Major, Yodle, Novus Greater Britannia, Libonesia, Shinomiya, East Itoran, Gladys and the drowning fish, Jogo Posicional, Zombiedolphins, Karteria, Perline, Enlais, The Marconian State, Nasset, Zaviana, Qudrath, Zebruski, HumanSanity, SFR Philippines, People of Phoenix, Telemark Bataljon, PogOpia, Draavida, Baccalieu, Republic of Lapland, Sapim, V I L E, Greenkeep, Ruinenlust, Anspach, Paquador, Saint Jonas, Sun Burst, Molopovia, Smiley Bob, New Technocratic Prussia, Anorba, New Gamna, The Raven Morocco Islands, Saganye, Socialist Russian Union, San Lumen, Wadelhelpia, GoodKingWenceslas, Novamexia 3, Creator Land, Roma Sparta, Omniabstracta, Hard rock and metal music)
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540
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Who am I, really? 45yo Tory woman; Cambridge graduate; possibly very controversial; currently reading your mind >:D

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Westinor
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Posts: 723
Founded: Feb 15, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Westinor » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:36 am

The North Pacific will support this proposal, and our delegate will vote for it. Our reasoning is viewable in our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1497417
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Stay safe, wear a mask, and have a great day! :)

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CoraSpia
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Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Anarchy

Postby CoraSpia » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:41 am

OOC: I don't imagine being able to vote for this given how regional WA voting on the last resolution went.

IC:
"Please remember, everybody, that those who do not want to suffer the presence of those who commit war crimes in their nation while also protecting their eternal soul may consider the Havenic resettlement program. They will be treated with the respect due to any new Havenic citizen and will have the opportunity to gain a totally new identity while never bothering your good people again.*"
* Havenic authorities accept no responsibility for ensuring that those sent to the Haven as part of its criminal resettlement program will never bother you again, nor will we...do anything about it if they do.
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Hexxon
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Founded: Jul 19, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hexxon » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:33 am

Hexxon votes AGAINST the "Protecting Sapient Life" proposal.

The nation of Hexxon was able to tolerate the misguided passage of the Death Penalty Ban. However, this proposal goes much too far. As if the Death Penalty Ban wasn't stepping on toes already, this proposal will only crush our toes, so to speak. Furthermore the nations of the World Assembly must be allowed to apply the death penalty against convicted war criminals, lest we allow the possibility of those monsters escaping detention facilities to commit further crimes. Hopefully our colleagues will recognize the negative consequences of this proposal, and will join us in voting against it.
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Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6531
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:56 am

“This would be the third piece of legislation to essentially ban capital punishment. Some may argue that this is excessive, and indeed it does seem like rather an excess for a single issue. However, the overall result of this proposal would passing would be a positive, namely the reduction and elimination of government-sanctioned killing. Hence, although it is admitted that a single piece of law could have done this far more elegantly, the Kenmorian delegation will be voting for this proposal.”
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Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:34 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:No.


Picairn wrote:I concur. Brutal dictators and genocidal megalomaniacs should be executed.


Tinfect wrote:OOC:
Any society which chooses to protect the perpetrators of genocide and the slaughterers of civilians is a society that has chosen the side of them. This ban is ludicrous and unacceptable.

What's ludicrous and unacceptable is the disregard for the fact that innocents can and will be executed. Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.

IC: Your original ban only goes for civilians which is fine but war criminals are not civilians. They don’t deserve freedom or the cozy jails that some nations offer. Sorry but I doubt most nations are going to vote for a proposal that defies all military logic. War criminals don’t reform. Especially ones that commit genocide.

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Scherzinger
Envoy
 
Posts: 288
Founded: Aug 17, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Scherzinger » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:38 pm

I wholeheartedly disagree with this proposal. I dont see the title as "Protecting Sapient Life" i see the title as "Make Sure Adolf Eichmann could live when 6 million others couldnt"
"If You Ever Thought The World Abandoned You, It Never Wanted You Before"
"In The Absence Of Orders, Go Find Something & Kill It"
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Ejsafc
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 06, 2021
New York Times Democracy

A theoretical situation cause by this bill

Postby Ejsafc » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:53 pm

I have copied a situation I posted in my regions forum so here is a theoretical situation that could happen if this bill passes

Lets say tyrannical government not in the WA and the tyrant will have to get up off his gold throne and get the criminal. If the country refuses to send the war criminal over to the other country because of the no deporting criminals to their death part, the military that captured the criminal would have to take him back and foreign relations would go to crap because they broke WA laws and the citizens would be angry at the government that refused to send the criminal over destroying public relations. Horrible exchanges like that would happen because war criminals are refused to be executed due to the grey areas and lack of exemptions in the bill.

This bill would be hell for foreign relations and is too vague to be effective

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Deblar
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Posts: 345
Founded: Jan 28, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Deblar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:11 pm

"As Head of State of the Republic of Deblar, I hereby oppose this Protecting Sapient Life bill, due to the fact that dangerous criminals who have committed unspeakable acts essentially earn a 'get out of jail free' card. This does not align with the interests of the Deblarian people. We suggest this bill is reevaluated and revised."
Last edited by Deblar on Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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San Finn
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 19
Founded: Jan 18, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby San Finn » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:31 pm

I voted for the previous death penalty ban only for domestic causes. But I am casting my vote against this individual proposition. I am doing this because war crimes are far more severe than any domestic crime. Killing civilians and retreating soldiers is an abhorent thing to do and must be punished. Other acts such as terrorism from one country to the other must also be punishable by death if the terrorists are captured.

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Avleristan
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Jul 31, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Avleristan » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:25 pm

The Federation of Avleristan absolutely rejects the absolute ban of capital punishment and hereby vote against the resolution

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Jakkonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Feb 01, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Jakkonia » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:55 pm

The Republic of Jakkonia finds this resolution to be not only ridiculous but outright deplorable. The fact is that the day we start letting war criminals and terrorists get off the Death Penalty after possibly killing hundreds to thousands of people in the affected nation then there is no justice. Of course you can let them just rot away in a cell but what does that do? nothing!

Instead it shows the monsters of the world that they can get away with killing large amounts of people and all they get out of it is to sit in a cell, one where they have a possibility, though admittedly slim, of escaping and causing even more harm to the nation and the world. The people will demand justice for the lives lost and in the opinion of the Republic it is the states duty to deliver.

We can tolerate a ban on general usage of the Death Penalty but when you start saying that a nation can no longer sentence those who kill its own people in mass with equal punishment then there only leaves room for more to happen. Terrorists feel no shame in the crimes they commit, nor do war criminals and tyrants. There comes a day when justice has to be served. For these people a line has been crossed that cannot be stepped back from. They know what they did, they knew what the end result would be. At some point it becomes a matter of justice for the lives lost instead of a human rights issue.

On the matter of this being a Human Rights issue the Jakkonian Delegation perfectly understands that point of view, however we do hold a disagreement with it. This does not mean that Jakkonia does not value Human Rights but it simply means that there are lines that cannot be crossed without justice being delivered. In this case if a person goes on knowingly to cross this line, and possibly kill hundreds to thousands of people, possibly even millions in some cases, then something has to be done and to this Delegation the only way to ensure the safety of the people is to either lock these people away far from society or we have to enact Capital Punishment. It is a matter of Safety, and a matter of Justice in the end.

This is why the Jakkonian Delegation will be voting against this extension of the Capital Punishment Ban.

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Vaktima
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 23, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Vaktima » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:18 pm

Vaktima finds this resolution idiotic.
I'm too lazy to keep feeding my prisoners so I just send them to Burgandi, so no thanks.
Last edited by Vaktima on Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Enjuku
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 181
Founded: Oct 10, 2009
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Enjuku » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:33 pm

Delegates,

Execution is a dated vice and does not belong in the modern world. As we have done with slavery and torture, we must do with the death penalty. The rights of the criminal are the rights of all sapient beings. And the rights of all humans beings begin with the rights of those whom are treated with the least humanity.

While some states may consider the death penalty's implementation an integral part of their sovereign criminal justice systems, or part of their cultural integrity, our global society has evolved beyond the need to kill as a means to punish. The days of an eye for an eye, a life for a life, are over. And this resolution succinctly summarizes that universal truth.

In keeping with Enjuku's previous vote against the death penalty, Enjuku's delegation wholeheartedly votes in favor of this resolution banning the death penalty in all other cases not previously provided for.
Last edited by Enjuku on Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vardocalifar
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 22
Founded: Nov 24, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vardocalifar » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:38 pm

Delegates,
Although the execution of an innocent at the hands of a military tribunal would be a miscarriage of justice, it is entirely reprehensible that for this reason truly evil people, especially those with high evidence laid against them should be left alone.
This will not stop, and will likely increase the chances of more people committing the heinous crimes during war, simply because they know they are safe.
Vardocalifar strongly opposes this motion however supports the need for tighter restrictions and better investigations when applying the death penalty at a military tribunal.
Last edited by Vardocalifar on Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Neolithic German Empire
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Apr 21, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Neolithic German Empire » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:51 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Picairn wrote:Evidence for your claims? Dictators, generals, and other perpretrators of war crimes aren't some random dudes to be so easily mistaken for innocents.

When it comes to the 'other perpetrators', miscarriages of justice can occur more commonly. Members of a squadron or unit falsely convicted and executed for the crimes of other soldiers within those same squadrons and units. Since we're talking about military tribunals here, Taiwan wrongfully convicted and executed a soldier via military tribunal for rape and murder in 1997, with his innocence coming to light more than a decade later: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-15476561


Rare cases innocent people are tried, but that doesn't mean horrible people should be let go. Do you think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Ch ... nd_release this man here should be allowed to live. Even if you say yes all you are doing is setting him up to die in prison as he will stay there his whole life or be beaten to death by fellow inmates (which does happen to people like him who rape and murder children). A quick humane killing of a person like this is quite honestly the least painful thing for him and a much better fate than he deserves. (Of course not that it matters for this man as he is already dead.)
Last edited by The Neolithic German Empire on Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United States of Americanas
Envoy
 
Posts: 302
Founded: Jan 23, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby United States of Americanas » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:53 pm

The death penalty gives one a free exit from earth, potentially letting them meet God and get purified. Blah blah insert religious garb here. It’s far more hell on a person to have them sit in jail for life without parole than it is to strap them to a gurney give them loopy juice and they die in front of you. Ban the death penalty.
Last edited by United States of Americanas on Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neymarland
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Posts: 104
Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neymarland » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:43 pm

United States of Americanas wrote:The death penalty gives one a free exit from earth, potentially letting them meet God and get purified. Blah blah insert religious garb here. It’s far more hell on a person to have them sit in jail for life without parole than it is to strap them to a gurney give them loopy juice and they die in front of you. Ban the death penalty.

What if they haven't spread the good news yet? What if they haven't heard? Not every region has the same religion, you know. And, sounds like followers of that religion don't go to jail too often.
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The Candy Of Bottles
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Posts: 602
Founded: Jan 01, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Candy Of Bottles » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:59 pm

And my vote against has already been cast. As I have said before, capital punishment is absolutely necessary in some circumstances. Certain individuals crimes are simply impossible to reform and pose too great of an escape risk for life imprisonment to be remotely feasible. If your nation has somehow escaped those conditions, great. But remember this is a multi-species assembly, and those circumstances are far from universal.
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Neymarland
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Posts: 104
Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neymarland » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:04 pm

The Candy Of Bottles wrote:And my vote against has already been cast. As I have said before, capital punishment is absolutely necessary in some circumstances. Certain individuals crimes are simply impossible to reform and pose too great of an escape risk for life imprisonment to be remotely feasible. If your nation has somehow escaped those conditions, great. But remember this is a multi-species assembly, and those circumstances are far from universal.

And your's are far from universal too. My vote has been cast, and changing it is not an option. If they pose too great of an escape risk, then improve your prison system, not go to death. And, as much as it regrets me to say this, if they are impossible to reform, then leave them there.
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The Candy Of Bottles
Diplomat
 
Posts: 602
Founded: Jan 01, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Candy Of Bottles » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:12 pm

Neymarland wrote:
The Candy Of Bottles wrote:And my vote against has already been cast. As I have said before, capital punishment is absolutely necessary in some circumstances. Certain individuals crimes are simply impossible to reform and pose too great of an escape risk for life imprisonment to be remotely feasible. If your nation has somehow escaped those conditions, great. But remember this is a multi-species assembly, and those circumstances are far from universal.

And your's are far from universal too. My vote has been cast, and changing it is not an option. If they pose too great of an escape risk, then improve your prison system, not go to death. And, as much as it regrets me to say this, if they are impossible to reform, then leave them there.

Considering some of our citizens are literally capable of teleportation, there's only so much that can be done short of the guillotine. It's not like we can just cut off their horn and leave it at that, considering that would be like cutting off your hands and leaving you alive.
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Aromea
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Jan 17, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Aromea » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:32 pm

"The Kingdom of Aromea shall not change it's ways. The Corporal Punishment is a vital part of both the authority of the King and when dealing with Terrorists and Separatists."
- King Aromeus IV of Aromea

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