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[DEFEATED] Protecting Sapient Life

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.
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Tinhampton
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[DEFEATED] Protecting Sapient Life

Postby Tinhampton » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:44 pm

This resolution was at vote between the 28th of January and 1st of February, 2021.
It was defeated by a margin of 7,992 votes (about 55%) to 6,643 (about 45%).

This proposal has been submitted to the General Assembly Civil Rights Board.
NOTE: at 2030 GMT or so on the 27th of January 2021, this proposal reached quorum with Saint Jonas' approval, the 58th all told. At 0643 GMT on the 28th of January 2021, this proposal returned to quorum with Smiley Bob's approval, also the 58th all told.

Character count: 757
Word count: 114
You will note that Death Penalty Ban allows for the death penalty for "crimes under a military penal code committed during time of war." IA has asserted that this is because support for an outright ban is "unclear." There's only one way to find out...
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Protecting Sapient Life
A resolution to improve worldwide human sapient and civil rights.
Category: Civil Rights
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Tinhampton

Recognising that GA#535 "Death Penalty Ban," while outlawing capital punishment in most circumstances, permits its deployment under military law in some circumstances, and

Seeking to abolish capital punishment in all circumstances across the WA, for reasons that have been stated in at least three different resolutions...

The General Assembly hereby:
  1. forbids the imposition of the death penalty in all cases where such has not already been prohibited by prior and standing international law, and
  2. prohibits members from deporting any person to a nation where said person faces a reasonable possibility of being sentenced to death for the crimes they have been charged with committing.
Co-authored with Gorundu.


The General Assembly hereby:
  1. forbids the imposition of the death penalty in all cases, subject to prior and standing international law, and
  2. prohibits members from deporting any person that could be sentenced to death to a state that permits the death penalty.
Last edited by Tinhampton on Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Greater Cesnica
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:50 pm

OOC: After DPB hits the floor and hopefully passes, I'll support this to finally eradicate capital punishment.

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Honeydewistania
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:53 pm

No.
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Picairn
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:No.

I concur. Brutal dictators and genocidal megalomaniacs should be executed.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:58 pm

OOC:
Any society which chooses to protect the perpetrators of genocide and the slaughterers of civilians is a society that has chosen the side of them. This ban is ludicrous and unacceptable.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:38 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:No.


Picairn wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:No.

I concur. Brutal dictators and genocidal megalomaniacs should be executed.


Tinfect wrote:OOC:
Any society which chooses to protect the perpetrators of genocide and the slaughterers of civilians is a society that has chosen the side of them. This ban is ludicrous and unacceptable.

What's ludicrous and unacceptable is the disregard for the fact that innocents can and will be executed. Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:41 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:What's ludicrous and unacceptable is the disregard for the fact that innocents can and will be executed. Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.

Evidence for your claims? Dictators, generals, and other perpretrators of war crimes aren't some random dudes to be so easily mistaken for innocents.
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Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

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-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
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Tinfect
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tinfect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:43 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:[...]Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.


OOC:
I agree, it's why reprehensible war criminals are so often allowed to go free with the comfortable support of the victor of any given conflict. Unfortunately, current WA Law enables this; fixing that is the next step.
People being executed for war crimes they didn't commit is an absurdist fantasy I won't even entertain.
Last edited by Tinfect on Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperium Central News Network: Preliminary trials of Military Doctrinal Reform prototypes to begin; IRPC 5-115, 5-298, 5-076 public details, Project Lead interviews released | Aeravahn occupation expands to 17% of the Exterior Territories, Internal Security orders full-stop to Civilian expeditions to Exterior | TCO - Vigilant Star declared missing following exit of Iraet orbital region | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:23 pm

Tinfect wrote:People being executed for war crimes they didn't commit is an absurdist fantasy I won't even entertain.

Do you believe it's impossible?

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:28 pm

Picairn wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:What's ludicrous and unacceptable is the disregard for the fact that innocents can and will be executed. Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.

Evidence for your claims? Dictators, generals, and other perpretrators of war crimes aren't some random dudes to be so easily mistaken for innocents.

When it comes to the 'other perpetrators', miscarriages of justice can occur more commonly. Members of a squadron or unit falsely convicted and executed for the crimes of other soldiers within those same squadrons and units. Since we're talking about military tribunals here, Taiwan wrongfully convicted and executed a soldier via military tribunal for rape and murder in 1997, with his innocence coming to light more than a decade later: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-15476561
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Honeydewistania
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:33 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:No.


Picairn wrote:I concur. Brutal dictators and genocidal megalomaniacs should be executed.


Tinfect wrote:OOC:
Any society which chooses to protect the perpetrators of genocide and the slaughterers of civilians is a society that has chosen the side of them. This ban is ludicrous and unacceptable.

What's ludicrous and unacceptable is the disregard for the fact that innocents can and will be executed. Even military tribunals, even international criminal courts, even the most impartial, well-staffed trials can perform a miscarriage of justice.

I agree. That's why we should mandate the abolishment of the judicial system in every country.
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Anarchist Republic of Melodia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Anarchist Republic of Melodia » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:56 pm

Our previous position on the death penalty (that it is not the business of any hierarchical state to determine the line between life and death) remains. Any society still contains myriad ways to deal with the likes of war criminals that effectively nullifies their ability to create more destruction besides the imposition of hierarchical violence.

Beyond our usual argument from the injustice of hierarchical violence, the ARM would also like to put forward a more Liberal-minded argument. Freedom can be returned to a man who has had it wrongly taken from him. Assets can be returned to innocents convicted of a crime in light of new information. None of us can return life to the dead. The price of even one innocent citizen killed is much too high.
Last edited by Anarchist Republic of Melodia on Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:03 pm

Anarchist Republic of Melodia wrote:Our previous position on the death penalty (that it is not the business of any hierarchical state to determine the line between life and death) remains. Any society still contains myriad ways to deal with the likes of war criminals that effectively nullifies their ability to create more destruction besides the imposition of hierarchical violence.

Beyond our usual argument from the injustice of hierarchical violence, the ARM would also like to put forward a practical argument. Freedom can be returned to a man who has had it wrongly taken from him. Assets can be returned to innocents convicted of a crime in light of new information. None of us can return life to the dead. The price of even one innocent citizen killed is much too high.

IC: "Excellent points, ambassador. Indeed, executing an individual has no practical reasons, whereas imprisonment has practical purpose in the pursuit of obtaining justice and the safety of the general populace."

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Anarchist Republic of Melodia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Anarchist Republic of Melodia » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:02 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:IC: "Excellent points, ambassador. Indeed, executing an individual has no practical reasons, whereas imprisonment has practical purpose in the pursuit of obtaining justice and the safety of the general populace."

Do not mistake my intentions; ARM broadly condemns traditional prison structures in favour of a community-oriented approach to justice and rehabilitation. As a matter of principle, we discourage all traditional incarcerations and the infrastructure they rely on. But we would always rather see our peers in the international community incarcerate criminal subjects than kill them.

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Wayneactia
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:27 pm

No.

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Sannyamathland
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Sannyamathland » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:34 pm

So this means,you are allowing the terrorists who kill thousands of innocent people for something as trivial as religion,a right to live ?!
The terrorists are not innocent people,they are savages,worse than animals,and have no right to live.
So I am against this !
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Npc West Florida
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Postby Npc West Florida » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Character count: 280
Word count: 45
You will note that Death Penalty Ban allows for the death penalty for "crimes under a military penal code committed during time of war." IA has asserted that this is because support for an outright ban is "unclear." There's only one way to find out...
(Image)
Protecting Sapient Life
A resolution to improve worldwide human sapient and civil rights.
Category: Civil Rights
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Tinhampton

The General Assembly hereby:
  1. forbids the imposition of the death penalty in all cases, subject to prior and standing international law, and
  2. prohibits members from deporting any person that could be sentenced to death to a state that permits the death penalty.

Will it outlaw abortion? Because I would be 100% for this bill of it does
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Tinfect
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tinfect » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:46 pm

Npc West Florida wrote:Will it outlaw abortion? Because I would be 100% for this bill of it does


OOC:
Capital Punishment ≠ Abortion; not only does this not do that, it couldn't. Reproductive rights are protected by other standing legislation.
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Imperium Central News Network: Preliminary trials of Military Doctrinal Reform prototypes to begin; IRPC 5-115, 5-298, 5-076 public details, Project Lead interviews released | Aeravahn occupation expands to 17% of the Exterior Territories, Internal Security orders full-stop to Civilian expeditions to Exterior | TCO - Vigilant Star declared missing following exit of Iraet orbital region | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:53 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:When it comes to the 'other perpetrators', miscarriages of justice can occur more commonly. Members of a squadron or unit falsely convicted and executed for the crimes of other soldiers within those same squadrons and units. Since we're talking about military tribunals here, Taiwan wrongfully convicted and executed a soldier via military tribunal for rape and murder in 1997, with his innocence coming to light more than a decade later: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-15476561

I can give you the argument if the perpretrator is a soldier of a unit or squadron, but dictators and generals aren't very so anonymous. Plus, in the NS world we have already ensured that death penalty is applied with the highest standards of evidence. With the restriction to only war crimes and the infamy of genocidal dictators and generals, the death penalty is only going to get more precise. How many innocents have been mistaken for dictators and generals?

Anarchist Republic of Melodia wrote:Our previous position on the death penalty (that it is not the business of any hierarchical state to determine the line between life and death) remains. Any society still contains myriad ways to deal with the likes of war criminals that effectively nullifies their ability to create more destruction besides the imposition of hierarchical violence.

Beyond our usual argument from the injustice of hierarchical violence, the ARM would also like to put forward a more Liberal-minded argument. Freedom can be returned to a man who has had it wrongly taken from him. Assets can be returned to innocents convicted of a crime in light of new information. None of us can return life to the dead. The price of even one innocent citizen killed is much too high.

"Frankly, I am disappointed that you would side with genocidal megalomaniacs over their victims. As an anarchist society, you should know that mob rule isn't so more noble than "hierarchial violence", that anarchist states have failed to prevent extrajudicial killings and sham trials by revolutionary mobs, in many ways even allowed them to happen.

You blabber a lot about freedom and innocent citizens, but what you miss is that imprisoned dictators and generals still possess certain influence over their followers, and they have the potential to cause further death and destruction once they are freed from prison. Foreign powers have attacked prisons to free dictators in the past and installed them as part of a new puppet government, only to continue the same old oppression. I prefer to kill one and save more in the future than to potentially let them be rescued by foreign powers and followers from prison and create more carnage."

OOC: Real life examples include the infamous rescue of Mussolini by Hitler's SS troops. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Sasso_raid
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Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

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-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
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Astrobolt
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Astrobolt » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:29 pm

"Full support."
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Bananaistan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bananaistan » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:41 am

Yes
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Postby Pope Saint Peter the Apostle » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:11 am

"Full support, Ambassador. The WA should end this barbaric practice."
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Marxist Germany
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:24 am

"I find it ironic that those who want to punish genocidal dictators choose to use murder to do so; two wrongs do not make a right."

You blabber a lot about freedom and innocent citizens, but what you miss is that imprisoned dictators and generals still possess certain influence over their followers, and they have the potential to cause further death and destruction once they are freed from prison. Foreign powers have attacked prisons to free dictators in the past and installed them as part of a new puppet government, only to continue the same old oppression. I prefer to kill one and save more in the future than to potentially let them be rescued by foreign powers and followers from prison and create more carnage.

"This argument relies on the pretext that the leader dying will stop oppression from happening if these foreign powers want it. If a foreign power is willing to invade a country to free a former dictator in order to reinstall him and continue his previous oppression, what is stopping the same country from installing a different puppet to perform the same purpose? What about creating a martyr of this former dictator by killing them, reinforcing the cult of personality around him?"
Last edited by Marxist Germany on Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tinhampton
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Posts: 8171
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:06 pm

This was submitted and received 33 of the required 58 approvals before it was withdrawn. To answer some concerns:
  • This is deliberately not a pale imitation of Death Penalty Ban. As I said in the OP's prologue, Article 1 of DPB is very clear that, upon its passage and in the absence of other resolutions, the death penalty may still be administered "for crimes under a military penal code committed during time of war." IA has asserted that this is because "[p]olitical support for an absolute ban is unclear." How many people do you know that only support the death penalty under the exemption listed in Article 1 of DPB? That's my point and part of the reason why I'm pushing this :P
  • I agree that Article b - which "prohibits members from deporting any person that could be sentenced to death to a state that permits the death penalty" - is overbroad, and will be looking at nuancing or removing this article when I resubmit this.
  • The words "sapient life" do not appear anywhere in the actual text of this proposal. Ergo no need for definition.
  • The other Tin is correct ;P
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Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549
Other achievements: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; -45 Darkspawn Kill Points; Philosopher-Queen of Sophia; "Tinhampton? the man's literally god"
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I STAND WITH PAM DUNCAN-GLANCY

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Tinhampton
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Posts: 8171
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:55 pm

Texkentuck wrote::clap: When this proposal is put forward we will protect all life. With prison reform more and likely passed their will be no need for the death penalty.

([url=https://i.ibb.co/rdtyckt/Texkentuck-nation-states.png]Image)[/url]

Image
Tinhampton doesn't have the death penalty either but some member states might... for now :P

This proposal will be resubmitted very soon - perhaps as soon as I firmly believe that Death Penalty Ban will become law
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 319,372): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549
Other achievements: Cup of Harmony 73 champions; -45 Darkspawn Kill Points; Philosopher-Queen of Sophia; "Tinhampton? the man's literally god"
Who am I, really? 45yo Tory woman; Cambridge graduate; possibly very controversial; currently reading 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari

I STAND WITH PAM DUNCAN-GLANCY

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