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[Passed] Fair Treatment of Prisoners

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Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:54 am

The Candy Of Bottles wrote:Hmm. Little surprised 2(a)(ii) doesn't go the other way around too- protecting a prisoner from other convicts who wish to harm them.

OOC: Wrote 2(d)(ii) the way I did because of the necessary element of informed consent being needed to transfer someone into protective confinement.

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Pchelionia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: May 25, 2020
Left-Leaning College State

Vote against

Postby Pchelionia » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:51 am

The sale or leasing of any prisoner by the government or any private prison to any private corporation or institution is a good thing.

Vote against this resolution.

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Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
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Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 am

Pchelionia wrote:The sale or leasing of any prisoner by the government or any private prison to any private corporation or institution is a good thing.

Vote against this resolution.

Seems legit.

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Straona
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Nov 16, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Straona » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:53 am

Texkentuck wrote:Can not vote for this because this isn't good for the future of good citizenship in Texkentuck. Have an issue with compelling a prisoner through coercion to perform labor or a service as a punitive measure, or as a means to generate profit for a prison facility and/or associated third parties. Our prisons are set up as a place of punishment as well a place for reform. Through good merit in clean cells and active participation in prison programs and in prison college education prisoners regain freedom. New Prisoners for the first 6 months are treated as prisoners with no rights. 3 basic healthy meals and no visitation but phone calls. After 6 months visitation is allowed. Also prisoners are allowed to receive a news paper for good merit and magazines as followed for good behavior. After 3 years of good behavior prisoners can watch t.v. After 4 years prisoners can use the internet. 5 years prisoners in longer but are rewarded for good behavior have free reign of activities. After 7 years a prisoner will be respected to have their own cell and extracurricular electronics like a house. Most prisoners at this point live on their computer and can talk to the outside word. Most prisoners who get life in prison at some point are released with a letter from the government stating "your a nuisance to our nation and an expense to the prison system". The federal government is giving you a plane ticket and has found you a job and an apartment in another country. You may serve out your life sentence here or choose to leave the nation and never return. We give them a place paid for in another nation for 5 years and 10,000 Texk Marks converted to the other nations currency. The Texkentuck Colonels of the Committee for State Security will follow these individuals as long as needed even in other nations. If they are caught doing the crime they will be reported to the right authorities in those countries. We disagree that labor and duties to keep a prison safe is beyond punitive.


Your prisons sounds like that out of an anime.

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Neymarland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 104
Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neymarland » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:24 am

Straona wrote:
Texkentuck wrote:Can not vote for this because this isn't good for the future of good citizenship in Texkentuck. Have an issue with compelling a prisoner through coercion to perform labor or a service as a punitive measure, or as a means to generate profit for a prison facility and/or associated third parties. Our prisons are set up as a place of punishment as well a place for reform. Through good merit in clean cells and active participation in prison programs and in prison college education prisoners regain freedom. New Prisoners for the first 6 months are treated as prisoners with no rights. 3 basic healthy meals and no visitation but phone calls. After 6 months visitation is allowed. Also prisoners are allowed to receive a news paper for good merit and magazines as followed for good behavior. After 3 years of good behavior prisoners can watch t.v. After 4 years prisoners can use the internet. 5 years prisoners in longer but are rewarded for good behavior have free reign of activities. After 7 years a prisoner will be respected to have their own cell and extracurricular electronics like a house. Most prisoners at this point live on their computer and can talk to the outside word. Most prisoners who get life in prison at some point are released with a letter from the government stating "your a nuisance to our nation and an expense to the prison system". The federal government is giving you a plane ticket and has found you a job and an apartment in another country. You may serve out your life sentence here or choose to leave the nation and never return. We give them a place paid for in another nation for 5 years and 10,000 Texk Marks converted to the other nations currency. The Texkentuck Colonels of the Committee for State Security will follow these individuals as long as needed even in other nations. If they are caught doing the crime they will be reported to the right authorities in those countries. We disagree that labor and duties to keep a prison safe is beyond punitive.


Your prisons sounds like that out of an anime.


Yeah. Maybe prisons there are also filmed for reality TV shows like "Can You Escape?"
What's that, someone is within 5 feet from me? Dives REF, REF! RED CARD, RED CARD
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Neymarland
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Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neymarland » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:27 am

Pchelionia wrote:The sale or leasing of any prisoner by the government or any private prison to any private corporation or institution is a good thing.

Vote against this resolution.

So, modified slavery is good? I don't think so.
What's that, someone is within 5 feet from me? Dives REF, REF! RED CARD, RED CARD
NEYMARLAND Is a proud member of UEFA Champions League
"You passed the Parc de Pantses. Hope you find your new jeans tomorrow."
Sign on HIghway 45802-540-35903
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." - Terry Pratchett
"Don't waste your money on a chair. Your chair is now broken and meaningless, as you bought that chair from a yard sale." -Thomas Edward Harrison
NEWS: Football fans rejoice in PSG's last victory.---Trump supporter causes barfight over election rigging.
Stance:Semi-Dictatorship, right-wing. Like everything except communists, abortion, and brussel sprouts.

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Elwher
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Founded: May 24, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Elwher » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:29 am

We have a number of objections to various provisions, but the one that is a true deal-breaker is the requirement that prisoners receive the same wage as other workers performing the same services. As we are providing them with housing, food, clothing, and medical care already they do not have the same needs as outside workers. Unless we are allowed to reduce their wages by the market value of the services they are being provided by the state, this is patently unfair.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Tlazohchitl
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jan 08, 2021
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tlazohchitl » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:36 am

This is outrageous. Criminals must be struck down with the macuahuitl of law, not treated like children! They will learn nothing if they are allowed to be coddled!

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Nazis in Space
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Founded: Aug 24, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nazis in Space » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:01 am

Tlazohchitl wrote:This is outrageous. Criminals must be struck down with the macuahuitl of law, not treated like children! They will learn nothing if they are allowed to be coddled!

I don't think the honourable nation of Tlazohchitl needs to be worried in this regard:
Prohibits subjecting a prisoner to treatment inferior to that legally permissible for prisoners of war

Assuming that the nation of Tlazohchitl still takes all the measures necessary to keep the fifth sun that brightens our sky shining, probibiting worse treatment that opening the prisoners' chests and tearing our their still-beating hearts should not be an issue.

While it is true that the other stipulations would put a stop to using prisoners for forced labour, it has repeatedly been demonstrated that prison labour is economically inefficient, simultaneously being less productive than conventional labour yet reducing the availability of work. Surely using the prisoners' blood to feed thirsting Gods would be a more productive use of them.

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Isigonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jan 06, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Isigonia » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:31 am

This is an affront to the VICTIMS of these Criminals!

These Criminals don't like the conditions of Prison? Good! They shouldn't commit crimes in the first place.

We're voting Against this.

Isigonia is tough on Crime.

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Neymarland
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Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neymarland » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:02 pm

Isigonia wrote:This is an affront to the VICTIMS of these Criminals!

These Criminals don't like the conditions of Prison? Good! They shouldn't commit crimes in the first place.

We're voting Against this.

Isigonia is tough on Crime.

So you allow them to be crippled, suffering, starved, and wanting, no, begging for death to be good?
What's that, someone is within 5 feet from me? Dives REF, REF! RED CARD, RED CARD
NEYMARLAND Is a proud member of UEFA Champions League
"You passed the Parc de Pantses. Hope you find your new jeans tomorrow."
Sign on HIghway 45802-540-35903
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." - Terry Pratchett
"Don't waste your money on a chair. Your chair is now broken and meaningless, as you bought that chair from a yard sale." -Thomas Edward Harrison
NEWS: Football fans rejoice in PSG's last victory.---Trump supporter causes barfight over election rigging.
Stance:Semi-Dictatorship, right-wing. Like everything except communists, abortion, and brussel sprouts.

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Hverland
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Dec 20, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hverland » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:01 pm

The government of Hverland strongly supports the resolution proposed by honorable nation of Greater Cesnica. - World Assembly Delegate Malín Hólmþórsdóttir

Ríkisstjórn Hverøyken styður eindregið ályktun sem háttvirt þjóð Greater Cesnica hefur lagt til. - Alþjóðaþingmanninn Malín Hólmþórsdóttir
Last edited by Hverland on Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Esperanzas States
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jan 22, 2021
Ex-Nation

Esperanzas IS A STRONG STATES WITH A STRONG MILALTARY

Postby Esperanzas States » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:01 am

dARE ATTACK AND YOU WILL PAY

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:17 am

Esperanzas States wrote:Esperanzas IS A STRONG STATES WITH A STRONG MILALTARY
dARE ATTACK AND YOU WILL PAY

Apparently not. https://www.nationstates.net/nation=esp ... st+Peoples

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Barfleur
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Founded: Mar 04, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Barfleur » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:55 am

Neymarland wrote:
Pchelionia wrote:The sale or leasing of any prisoner by the government or any private prison to any private corporation or institution is a good thing.

Vote against this resolution.

So, modified slavery is good? I don't think so.

OOC: There are people who genuinely believe this nonsense. It's almost as if... a person doesn't lose all their rights because they committed a crime.

Isigonia wrote:This is an affront to the VICTIMS of these Criminals!

These Criminals don't like the conditions of Prison? Good! They shouldn't commit crimes in the first place.

We're voting Against this.

Isigonia is tough on Crime.


IC: "My nation is 'tough on crime' as well, in the sense that we give an appropriate amount of funding for law enforcement and we have prosecutors who make sure criminals are brought to justice. But we also have a judicial system that serves as more than just a means of retribution against a person who has been convicted of a crime. We emphasize programs that, whenever possible, minimize the amount of time a person spends incarcerated, and which provide prisoners with work experience and help for any underlying medical or psychological issues. It is our intention that every person who leaves a Barfleurian prison leaves a better person, and less likely to commit any future crimes, than they were when they came in. Now, repeat offenders and people who commit barbarous crimes do end up with harsher punishments, but our focus is to help people, not to cause suffering for the sake of suffering."

SIDE NOTE: The quote above represents Barfleur's historic ambivalence about the death penalty--governments have gone back and forth as to whether everyone, including the most horrific criminals, is ultimately capable of being rehabilitated, or if some people will never be able to reintegrate into society. Though Barfleur still retains the death penalty for crimes involving slavery, treason, or terrorism resulting in death, there is an unofficial moratorium on death sentences being imposed, and most Barfleurians favor abolishing it altogether.
Last edited by Barfleur on Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Westinor
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Founded: Feb 15, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Westinor » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:36 am

The North Pacific will be casting a vote [b]FOR[b] this proposal, and recommends a vote for. Further information on our stance and reasoning can be found in our IFV dispatch here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1493324
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Stay safe, wear a mask, and have a great day! :)

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Isigonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jan 06, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Isigonia » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:52 pm

Neymarland wrote:
Isigonia wrote:This is an affront to the VICTIMS of these Criminals!

These Criminals don't like the conditions of Prison? Good! They shouldn't commit crimes in the first place.

We're voting Against this.

Isigonia is tough on Crime.

So you allow them to be crippled, suffering, starved, and wanting, no, begging for death to be good?


Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:35 pm

There is no strong evidence that harsher punishments reduce crime rates. Aaron Chalfin and Justin McCrary, 'Criminal deterrence: a review of the literature' (2017) 55 J Econ Lit 5 (finding 'there is far less evidence that crime responds to the severity of criminal sanctions'); Kleck et al, 'The missing link in general deterrence research' (2005) 43 Criminol 623 (finding no correlation between actual punishment levels and perceived punishment levels, implying no deterrent effect at the individual level).

At a broad level, Chalfin and McCrary supra conclude on the topic that:

Overall, the evidence suggests that individuals respond to the incentives that are the most immediate and salient. While police and local labor-market conditions influence costs that are borne immediately, the cost of a prison sentence, if experienced at all, is experienced sometime in the future. To the extent that offenders are myopic or have a high discount rate, deterrence effects will be less likely. Moreover, given that an empirical finding of deterrence depends on the existence of perceptual deterrence, it may be the case that potential offenders are more aware of changes in policing and local labor-market conditions than they are of changes in incarceration policy, with the exception of specific sentence enhancements that are individually targeted. Chalfin and McCrary supra at 38.

What is instead extremely important for deterring crime is the certainty of apprehension. von Hirsch et al, Criminal deterrence and sentence severity: an analysis of recent research (1999) (finding that 'results revealed negative statistical associations between certainty of punishment and crime rates'). 'The evidence in support of the deterrent effect of the certainty of punishment is far more consistent than that for the severity of punishment'. Daniel S Nagin, 'Deterrence in the twenty-first century' (2013) 42 Crime and Justice 199.

While some evidence exists for a deterrence effect of harsh punishments,

The empirical evidence leads to the conclusion that there is a marginal deterrent effect for legal sanctions, but this conclusion must be swallowed with a hefty dose of caution and skepticism; it is very difficult to state with any precision how strong a deterrent effect the criminal justice system provides. At the very least, there is a great asymmetry between what is expected of the legal system through deterrence and what the system delivers. There is greater confidence that non-legal factors are more effective in securing compliance than legal threats. Raymond Paternoster, 'How much do we really know about criminal deterrence?' (2010) 100 J Crim Law and Criminol 765.

There is evidence that would-be offenders are not completely unmindful of the objective risks and costs they run if they commit crimes, but the correlations are rather meagre and must be disappointing to believers in deterrence. In fact, one of the 'dirty little secrets' of deterrence is that there really is not much evidence in support of a strong correlation between the objective and subjective properties of punishment. Ibid 804–5.

This is especially a problem when harsher punishments have extremely high costs; eg in the United States, it costs more to imprison one convict than it does to send that convict to a non-flagship public university. Eg Associated Press, 'At $75,560, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard' (4 Jun 2017) available at https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la- ... story.html.

If increasing the severity of punishment has little impact on the crime levels, the state must meaningfully grapple with the costs of over-incarceration relative to its extremely small benefits.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Dark Kreston
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Founded: Oct 27, 2020
Authoritarian Democracy

Aprrove

Postby Dark Kreston » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:25 pm

Approve of this please :bow:

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15926
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:18 pm

Texkentuck wrote:If this law is passed their will be a world wide immigration crisis. The reform of our prison system will be useless. We aren't running a school of kids. It's a place of law and order and regained merit to be free in society. Texkentucky has an issue with this fine written print in quotation. It makes prison sound like another day on the job! "Also Those who have had protective confinement imposed on them have regular access to the services of psychiatric staff; and that they have access to visitations from guests in accordance with standard prison policy,

All available measures are taken to reinstate a prisoner into the general prison population, as soon as it is safe to do so,

Member states ensure that prisoners have access to investigative resources and legal recourse in the event that they lodge a complaint about abuses inflicted upon them, and that no reprisals are carried out against those who lodge these complaints,

Prisoners who voluntarily carry out a service or activity as a form of labor during the period of their incarceration receive a wage commensurate to the extent of their work, which shall be equivalent to the wage a free worker employed in the same trade would receive for doing the same quantity and quality of work, and that

All workplace health and safety regulations, past and future, on the national and international level, apply to prisoners working voluntarily during the period of their incarceration".

Work place health and safety- Apparently this will make freedom go down. We allow beer drinking in prison. We don't bother taking it away most times from their tin can. Some prisoners are in a room with a cot and nothing more. They get walked to the bathroom when asked. We allow beer drinking in the prison and during some counseling sessions, but most guards turn a blind eye for good behaved inmates. Why does the world want to interfere with Texkentuck Prisons. The reforms won't happen over night. It will take years........By then this will be overturned. Working in a work environment int Texkentuck we have set guidelines already but totally diffirent from the prison because the work place is in a free society. Yes, in Texkentuck warehouse environments we have beer and coke fountains. Also basic rules put in place and people can choose to follow the ones that don't put others at risk but the ones that put others at risk are mandatory. We are a society of technology and it's a constitutional right amended to our constitution that no employer can tell you to put your phone away but if on camera employee isn't productive and has a phone out their is the right for immediate termination. Also within the time they worked all production must be recorded truthfully. If found untrue possibly 50 years in prison without parole no less than 8 years... Since this crime isn't the most worse they do get visitation rights unlike most other crimes. The charge is a human rights violation in the work place.


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Separatist Peoples
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:12 pm

"I take it back. That was the most incoherent policy argument I have ever seen."

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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Greater Cesnica
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6840
Founded: Mar 30, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Greater Cesnica » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:18 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"I take it back. That was the most incoherent policy argument I have ever seen."

"We ah, c-concur with that."

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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:18 pm

This is not the place to post factbooks. Do that in F+NI or in your gameside factbooks.
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Blue Nagia
Secretary
 
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Founded: Jan 12, 2021
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Blue Nagia » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:33 pm

"Our leader endorses this proposal and will vote for it, with the caveat that it will soon become irrelevant to us, as we intend to shutter our prisons at the earliest opportunity."
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Barfleur
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 471
Founded: Mar 04, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Barfleur » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:49 pm

Texkentuck wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is not the place to post factbooks. Do that in F+NI or in your gameside factbooks.



I did it to prove a point to this ridiculous resolution. Lol I'm a rule breaker. I dare you to sanction me through the security council. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

We won’t waste our time. We might be more inclined to listen to you if you presented actual arguments rather than poorly written, incoherent, irrelevant babble. Well, once this proposal is passed, I’m sure you will stun us all with your brilliantly thought out repeal.
Barfleur: Unus pro omnibus et omnes pro uno
Citizen of The East Pacific
“Sweatpants are a sign of defeat. You lost control of your life so you bought some sweatpants.”
― Karl Lagerfeld
Ambassador: Roger MacGeorge
Military Attaché: Colonel Lyndon Q. Ralston
Co-author, GA#534.
The Barfleurian World Assembly Mission can be found at Room 1903, Floor 19, WAHQ.

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