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[Drafting Still] Maternity and Childcare Support

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6373
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sun May 24, 2020 9:49 am

Godular wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: In my opinion, the vast majority of nations willing to vote based solely on the title, would not be reading so far in the title so as to arrive at a pro-life conclusion. That requires a degree of analysis that I don’t think would be attempted by a nation that doesn’t even read the active clauses. I can think of a more ‘positive’ title, but it isn’t as accurate as the current one: ‘Supporting Childbearing Parents’.)


OOC: What about 'Supporting At-Risk Parents'?

(OOC: That would be a good title. It’s accurate and sounds good.)
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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sun May 24, 2020 9:56 am

OOC: And thus it is done. (renaming, anyway)

IC: Zodiac scribbles a bit more on his extra copy. "How 'bout this then? On another note, setting its category as 'Healthcare' seems... incorrect somehow. Is there another category that would apply to this, or no?"
Last edited by Godular on Sun May 24, 2020 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sun May 24, 2020 10:21 am

Godular wrote:OOC: And thus it is done. (renaming, anyway)

IC: Zodiac scribbles a bit more on his extra copy. "How 'bout this then? On another note, setting its category as 'Healthcare' seems... incorrect somehow. Is there another category that would apply to this, or no?"

“This covers welfare, so social justice could work.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sun May 24, 2020 2:30 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Godular wrote:OOC: And thus it is done. (renaming, anyway)

IC: Zodiac scribbles a bit more on his extra copy. "How 'bout this then? On another note, setting its category as 'Healthcare' seems... incorrect somehow. Is there another category that would apply to this, or no?"

“This covers welfare, so social justice could work.”


"Oooh, that's a good one..." Zodiac scribbles some more on the extra copy. His head pops up at some internal realization, and he snickers. "Heh, now I'm a social justice warrior."
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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Wed May 27, 2020 7:41 pm

"Out of curiosity, should I itemize expected features for the welfare and medical care, or have I applied sufficient due diligence to the matter?"
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Thu May 28, 2020 2:45 am

Godular wrote:"Out of curiosity, should I itemize expected features for the welfare and medical care, or have I applied sufficient due diligence to the matter?"

“I think the requirements already given in the proposal should be sufficient.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Thu May 28, 2020 6:28 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Godular wrote:"Out of curiosity, should I itemize expected features for the welfare and medical care, or have I applied sufficient due diligence to the matter?"

“I think the requirements already given in the proposal should be sufficient.”


"All right. I must say, there's been surprisingly little feedback so far. I had complaints from the pro-life folks about the free-abortion entry, but logically I have to include that with pregnancy-related-healthcare. After all, I'd figure that being able to access diagnostic services to determine any genetic issues would give all parents-- not just at-risk families-- an opportunity to cut a pregnancy short if a terminal condition is noted before it would be overly traumatic to do so. I mean... I looked up some of those chromosomal disorders? Trisomy 13! Just... daaaaaamn...

"Anyway, I'm just surprised, is all. I get more surprised as time goes on."
Last edited by Godular on Thu May 28, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri May 29, 2020 9:06 pm

OOC: Maybe it's just that it's way too early in the day to try to wrangle Legalese, but I don't really see anything this proposal wants done to this particular group of people, that previous resolutions don't already mandate to be done to everybody? Or are you trying to amend GA #344, Minimum Standard of Living Act, clause 4?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sat May 30, 2020 4:31 am

OOC: I’m not sure how that applies, honestly. Either way, section 6 of #344 rather specifically speaks of not prohibiting later legislation on the subject of minimal standards of living, if that is what you mean.
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A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sun May 31, 2020 2:17 am

Godular wrote:OOC: I’m not sure how that applies, honestly. Either way, section 6 of #344 rather specifically speaks of not prohibiting later legislation on the subject of minimal standards of living, if that is what you mean.

OOC: The relevant bit of clause 4: "Exempts each member state from guaranteeing a minimum standard of living to individuals who ... refuse to make a good faith attempt to support themselves without government assistance, or to engage in government-mandated job training, temporary employment or community service, without a legitimate reason, such as a disability that would prevent them from doing so".

And clause 6 only applies when clause 2 applies: "Declares that each member state is required to guarantee a minimum standard of living to all inhabitants of that member state".

You would be giving a specific group of people (having a child is not a disability) higher standards of living than others, without allowing member nations to require said people to try and support themselves or their family first. (Do note that I very much disagree with MSoLA's clause 4 as being a good thing, but it is still a thing.)

While MSoLA doesn't ban future legislation on minimum standards of living, it would, according to its own mandates, only allow that when such new minimum standards are applied evenly to every inhabitant. And MSoLA still gives states the right to make people work (for the state) for their welfare handouts.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sun May 31, 2020 7:42 am

Godular wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:“I think the requirements already given in the proposal should be sufficient.”


"All right. I must say, there's been surprisingly little feedback so far. I had complaints from the pro-life folks about the free-abortion entry, but logically I have to include that with pregnancy-related-healthcare. After all, I'd figure that being able to access diagnostic services to determine any genetic issues would give all parents-- not just at-risk families-- an opportunity to cut a pregnancy short if a terminal condition is noted before it would be overly traumatic to do so. I mean... I looked up some of those chromosomal disorders? Trisomy 13! Just... daaaaaamn...

"Anyway, I'm just surprised, is all. I get more surprised as time goes on."

"This is how Iceland has 'eradicated' Down's Syndrome -- by killing children diagnosed with it. It's an unfortunate sign of the ableism still prevalent in our society."

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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sun May 31, 2020 7:54 am

Araraukar wrote:
Godular wrote:OOC: I’m not sure how that applies, honestly. Either way, section 6 of #344 rather specifically speaks of not prohibiting later legislation on the subject of minimal standards of living, if that is what you mean.

OOC: The relevant bit of clause 4: "Exempts each member state from guaranteeing a minimum standard of living to individuals who ... refuse to make a good faith attempt to support themselves without government assistance, or to engage in government-mandated job training, temporary employment or community service, without a legitimate reason, such as a disability that would prevent them from doing so".

And clause 6 only applies when clause 2 applies: "Declares that each member state is required to guarantee a minimum standard of living to all inhabitants of that member state".

You would be giving a specific group of people (having a child is not a disability) higher standards of living than others, without allowing member nations to require said people to try and support themselves or their family first. (Do note that I very much disagree with MSoLA's clause 4 as being a good thing, but it is still a thing.)

While MSoLA doesn't ban future legislation on minimum standards of living, it would, according to its own mandates, only allow that when such new minimum standards are applied evenly to every inhabitant. And MSoLA still gives states the right to make people work (for the state) for their welfare handouts.


OOC: Hmm. Alright, should I incorporate an addendum referring to accessibility requirements? I don’t see how access to childcare services would contradict MSoLA, but I can see how the others might cause an issue.

United Massachusetts wrote:
Godular wrote:
"All right. I must say, there's been surprisingly little feedback so far. I had complaints from the pro-life folks about the free-abortion entry, but logically I have to include that with pregnancy-related-healthcare. After all, I'd figure that being able to access diagnostic services to determine any genetic issues would give all parents-- not just at-risk families-- an opportunity to cut a pregnancy short if a terminal condition is noted before it would be overly traumatic to do so. I mean... I looked up some of those chromosomal disorders? Trisomy 13! Just... daaaaaamn...

"Anyway, I'm just surprised, is all. I get more surprised as time goes on."

"This is how Iceland has 'eradicated' Down's Syndrome -- by killing children diagnosed with it. It's an unfortunate sign of the ableism still prevalent in our society."


“I very specifically referenced Patau syndrome for a reason, sir. There are some stories that should not have to be forced on people. Besides, the option is still left to the parents. If they do not wish to abort, they should not have to. It goes both ways.”
Last edited by Godular on Sun May 31, 2020 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Godular
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:05 am

OOC: After some thought on Araraukar's comment, I added in a mention to established eligibility requirements. Would this address the concern as it was raised? If I need to fix phrasing on the matter, please let me know.
Last edited by Godular on Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- An enormously advanced collective of formerly human bioborgs that are vastly experienced in both inter-dimensional travel and asymmetrical warfare.
A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
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Araraukar
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Posts: 15272
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:52 pm

OOC: I HATE clauses like 2.c., and don't really see why 2.b. shouldn't apply to all families. Though truth be told, the definition is so vague (having a child is bad for your finances, period) that it more or less does apply to all families, but I don't think most would appreciate being called "at-risk" anything, unless they really are.

In 2.a. I'd suggest changing "persons" into "inhabitants", so that WA nations don't end up taken advantage of as "free healthcare for non-member neighbours' pregnant peeps".

But why are you mandating "financial assistance for pediatric healthcare", when the WA nations are already required to provide healthcare for everyone (including minors) at an affordable cost? Also, what exactly is "financial assistance for low-income or single-parent households" for?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:54 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: I HATE clauses like 2.c., and don't really see why 2.b. shouldn't apply to all families. Though truth be told, the definition is so vague (having a child is bad for your finances, period) that it more or less does apply to all families, but I don't think most would appreciate being called "at-risk" anything, unless they really are.


Specifically, the at-risk is focused on low-income households or single-parent households in which the parent is unable to afford childcare or other such services that might be considered beyond their means even under what is considered in good faith to be 'affordable'. One possible qualifier might be that they're already relying on welfare assistance in some form.

In 2.a. I'd suggest changing "persons" into "inhabitants", so that WA nations don't end up taken advantage of as "free healthcare for non-member neighbours' pregnant peeps".


Would not 'citizens' be a workable term as well?

But why are you mandating "financial assistance for pediatric healthcare", when the WA nations are already required to provide healthcare for everyone (including minors) at an affordable cost? Also, what exactly is "financial assistance for low-income or single-parent households" for?


Reducing the strain of childcare (regarding both). Even under certain good-faith assessments of 'affordable' pretty-much-anything, there are folks who would still be unable to afford it. That being said, I could probably be a bit more specific on the financial assistance. I was thinking somewhere on the order of educational or occupational supports such as daycare or even counseling.
Last edited by Godular on Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:56 am

Godular wrote:Even under certain good-faith assessments of 'affordable' pretty-much-anything, there are folks who would still be unable to afford it.

OOC: Not how WA law works. If it says affordable, the state must make it affordable on a case-by-case basis. If someone cannot afford to pay anything, the state must see to it that they get it free.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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Godular
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:40 am

Araraukar wrote:
Godular wrote:Even under certain good-faith assessments of 'affordable' pretty-much-anything, there are folks who would still be unable to afford it.

OOC: Not how WA law works. If it says affordable, the state must make it affordable on a case-by-case basis. If someone cannot afford to pay anything, the state must see to it that they get it free.


OOC: I should like confirmation of that from a second source/poster if possible.

Though, mayhap I should just outright specify that it should be free.
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Ardiveds
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Posts: 267
Founded: Feb 28, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ardiveds » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:10 am

Godular wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Not how WA law works. If it says affordable, the state must make it affordable on a case-by-case basis. If someone cannot afford to pay anything, the state must see to it that they get it free.


OOC: I should like confirmation of that from a second source/poster if possible.

Though, mayhap I should just outright specify that it should be free.

OOC: Please don't make it free. Let those with money pay for it themselves.

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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:57 am

Godular wrote:OOC: I should like confirmation of that from a second source/poster if possible.

OOC: Would a GenSec member do?
viewtopic.php?p=35469694#p35469694
viewtopic.php?p=35471740#p35471740
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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Godular
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Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:13 am

Araraukar wrote:
Godular wrote:OOC: I should like confirmation of that from a second source/poster if possible.

OOC: Would a GenSec member do?
viewtopic.php?p=35469694#p35469694
viewtopic.php?p=35471740#p35471740


Righto. And those even include a relevant resolution. Thanks.

Hmm. Would lumping pregnancy-related care and pediatric care together as completely free be functional?
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A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
I don't normally use NS stats. But when I do, I prefer Dos Eckis I can STILL kill you.
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Araraukar
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Posts: 15272
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:50 am

Godular wrote:Righto. And those even include a relevant resolution. Thanks.

OOC: Sorry, I thought you were aware of what resolution we were talking about.

Hmm. Would lumping pregnancy-related care and pediatric care together as completely free be functional?

Well, yes, kinda, but what's wrong with "affordable"? You'll have a much bigger fight if you try to make it completely free. (Personally I'm all for making it free, but as you've already seen, others might not agree.)

I think what I'm trying to get at is, what's the justification here? Like, you don't need to convince me, but rather the voters, who might not be from RL nations with even affordable (nevermind universal) healthcare. What makes pregnant individuals' and children's healthcare more special than any other group of people who might also be vulnerable and have special needs? Figure out the answer and put it in the preamble, and you'll have a better chance at passing it.

EDIT: Oh and remove everything about abortions from the preamble.
Last edited by Araraukar on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

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Godular
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Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:38 am

Araraukar wrote:
Godular wrote:Righto. And those even include a relevant resolution. Thanks.

OOC: Sorry, I thought you were aware of what resolution we were talking about.

Hmm. Would lumping pregnancy-related care and pediatric care together as completely free be functional?

Well, yes, kinda, but what's wrong with "affordable"? You'll have a much bigger fight if you try to make it completely free. (Personally I'm all for making it free, but as you've already seen, others might not agree.)

I think what I'm trying to get at is, what's the justification here? Like, you don't need to convince me, but rather the voters, who might not be from RL nations with even affordable (nevermind universal) healthcare. What makes pregnant individuals' and children's healthcare more special than any other group of people who might also be vulnerable and have special needs? Figure out the answer and put it in the preamble, and you'll have a better chance at passing it.

EDIT: Oh and remove everything about abortions from the preamble.


The stuff about abortion IS the justification! The whole point of this thing is as a ‘compromise’ measure to help in reducing abortions while retaining free access to them.
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A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
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Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15272
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:19 am

Godular wrote:The stuff about abortion IS the justification! The whole point of this thing is as a ‘compromise’ measure to help in reducing abortions while retaining free access to them.

OOC: So basically what my earlier draft tried to do as well... Though be aware that this may fail just for a preamble full of abortion stuff. :P

Still, I don't know why you would want this all to be instituted just to reduce abortions? Rather than, you know, helping people?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

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Godular
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Posts: 11065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:29 am

Araraukar wrote:
Godular wrote:The stuff about abortion IS the justification! The whole point of this thing is as a ‘compromise’ measure to help in reducing abortions while retaining free access to them.

OOC: So basically what my earlier draft tried to do as well... Though be aware that this may fail just for a preamble full of abortion stuff. :P

Still, I don't know why you would want this all to be instituted just to reduce abortions? Rather than, you know, helping people?


That is exactly the point of it. It is specifically geared towards addressing many of the reasons that a woman might have to get an abortion by simply making them into a non-factor.
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A 1.08 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie
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WA Kitty Kops
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Posts: 322
Founded: Oct 08, 2013
Father Knows Best State

Postby WA Kitty Kops » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:13 pm

Godular wrote:That is exactly the point of it. It is specifically geared towards addressing many of the reasons that a woman might have to get an abortion by simply making them into a non-factor.

OOC: But you could easily do that without underlining the anti-abortion ideology...
The Head Inshpekshuuner looks like a dark grey kitten with yellow eyes and a small white patch on his chest, he's about 4-5 months old. He's much smarter than you could guess from the way he talks.
-- my main nation is Araraukar
NERVUN wrote:And my life flashed in front of my eyes while I did and I honestly expected my computer to explode after I entered the warning.

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