NationStates

Need help deciding the amount of punishment my nation will take for WA violations. Basically, my nation has taken a hard stance against WA Pro-Choice resolutions- getting an abortion outside of the state (and the public)-approved cases is not just hard- after you get one you’ll most likely be treated as an unwanted guest everywhere, including government agencies, most of your friends and even relatives will turn away from you, and, of course, keeping your job (and finding a new one) will be near impossible. While this is less of an official policy and more of a “public voluntary agreement to boycott and bully abortion getters”, vocal support for this was voiced by the parliament and the monarch.
Speaking of other violations, the nation has hard anti-smoking laws, that go as far as banning production and storage of smoking devices in large quantities, alcohol is very heavily regulated as well, and all forms of drugs are banned with almost all drug-related crimes being classified as “heavy” with all the resulting consequences (our nation is really into discriminating against ex-heavy-convicts).
We also have had a death penalty, although recently it was replaced by something which can be possibly called fate worse than death. Chemically and surgically shaping one’s mind and personality into a functioning member of society. While such “operations” are conducted with some a great amount of safety and are usually successful, the whole nature of this “mandatory psychiatric treatment for extre-heavy-criminals” is quite controversial. Prisoner can be sentenced to such a sentence only after a long period of awaiting additional evidence that can prove him not guilty (like 20 years or something), a full analysis by nation’s leading psychologists, criminologists and psychiatrists, etc.
Also, while our nation has little to no political rights violations (yeah maybe the state religion feeds off the taxpayer’s money and it also has some privileges when dealing with government but nothing more than that), speaking of other possible civil rights abuses, the government keeps a heavy track of every citizen’s info. Anything they can find without violating one’s privacy, they will record, catalogue and store. And, as they have the technology and the men, they can find a lot. Social media is quite popular and as such getting info on citizen’s whereabouts is quite easy, even without analyzing the data.
Finally, all of the civ rights violations were approved on a national referendum which was ratified by international observers.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Need help deciding the amount of punishment my nation will take for WA violations. Basically, my nation has taken a hard stance against WA Pro-Choice resolutions- getting an abortion outside of the state (and the public)-approved cases is not just hard- after you get one you’ll most likely be treated as an unwanted guest everywhere, including government agencies, most of your friends and even relatives will turn away from you, and, of course, keeping your job (and finding a new one) will be near impossible. While this is less of an official policy and more of a “public voluntary agreement to boycott and bully abortion getters”, vocal support for this was voiced by the parliament and the monarch.
Speaking of other violations, the nation has hard anti-smoking laws, that go as far as banning production and storage of smoking devices in large quantities, alcohol is very heavily regulated as well, and all forms of drugs are banned with almost all drug-related crimes being classified as “heavy” with all the resulting consequences (our nation is really into discriminating against ex-heavy-convicts).
We also have had a death penalty, although recently it was replaced by something which can be possibly called fate worse than death. Chemically and surgically shaping one’s mind and personality into a functioning member of society. While such “operations” are conducted with some a great amount of safety and are usually successful, the whole nature of this “mandatory psychiatric treatment for extre-heavy-criminals” is quite controversial. Prisoner can be sentenced to such a sentence only after a long period of awaiting additional evidence that can prove him not guilty (like 20 years or something), a full analysis by nation’s leading psychologists, criminologists and psychiatrists, etc.
Also, while our nation has little to no political rights violations (yeah maybe the state religion feeds off the taxpayer’s money and it also has some privileges when dealing with government but nothing more than that), speaking of other possible civil rights abuses, the government keeps a heavy track of every citizen’s info. Anything they can find without violating one’s privacy, they will record, catalogue and store. And, as they have the technology and the men, they can find a lot. Social media is quite popular and as such getting info on citizen’s whereabouts is quite easy, even without analyzing the data.
Finally, all of the civ rights violations were approved on a national referendum which was ratified by international observers.

Just... don't then? I mean, you don't have to whip yourself every time you oppose a resolution. Or at all.

Untecna wrote:Just... don't then? I mean, you don't have to whip yourself every time you oppose a resolution. Or at all.

Well, I’ve talked about this with Separatist Peoples and he thinks that nations that oppose WA resolutions should RP the fines, and damage to economy that results in them. I agree with him.

The fines have either crippled your economy or your nation is subject to a total embargo such that your economy is crippled, your people find it hard to leave, your leaders are subject to sanctions, not one good/service is imported, etc. Effectively you are now a failed state.

Your nation will have it much easier if you simply return to a state of compliance. There's no benefit in being non-compliant, nor will there ever be.

Bananaistan wrote:The fines have either crippled your economy or your nation is subject to a total embargo such that your economy is crippled, your people find it hard to leave, your leaders are subject to sanctions, not one good/service is imported, etc. Effectively you are now a failed state.

Hmmm, you won’t be quite against this if I’ll tone this down just a little bit? I mean my nation was pursuing a self-sufficiency goals even before it became non-compliant with WA resolutions, as autarky was viewed as the only way to go to feed the population. Also it could potentially partially replace imports from WA nations that refuse to trade with it with imports from non-WA nations. After all, we’re talking here a nation that is rich in technologies and natural resources, and has quite a few space colonies that are drilled for resources. No, I don’t mean that nothing bad will happen, but what would happen would be the beating that my nation can take without becoming a failed state. After all, I’ll say again that pursuing autarky and having quite a hard stance against globalism and international trade was long before all of this non-compliance stuff begun...

Daarwyrth wrote:Your nation will have it much easier if you simply return to a state of compliance. There's no benefit in being non-compliant, nor will there ever be.

Well, to my general populace, there is. They REALLY don’t want their tax money to be spent on abortions and would eagerly give up some of their tax money just to keep doing what they view as the right thing. If the government would’ve even tried pushing things like fighting against anti-abortion public agreements the general populace would quickly impeach them and install those that will continue to do what the people want to do.

Bananaistan wrote:The fines have either crippled your economy or your nation is subject to a total embargo such that your economy is crippled, your people find it hard to leave, your leaders are subject to sanctions, not one good/service is imported, etc. Effectively you are now a failed state.

All those (embargoes etc.) only apply to member nations, though. For a member nation that is on a planet otherwise populated by nonmembers and which does not want foreign member nations fiddling with its trade and whatnot, it can be totally reasonable.

Also, presumably WA committees cannot cause noncompliance through their actions, so they cannot take any money or resources earmarked for the many requirements other resolutions demand member nations provide. WA also cannot require internal taxation rates nor take money belonging to private people/businesses/institutions.

So depending on the RP reality, your arguments are not necessarily true.

Araraukar wrote:

Bananaistan wrote:The fines have either crippled your economy or your nation is subject to a total embargo such that your economy is crippled, your people find it hard to leave, your leaders are subject to sanctions, not one good/service is imported, etc. Effectively you are now a failed state.

All those (embargoes etc.) only apply to member nations, though. For a member nation that is on a planet otherwise populated by nonmembers and which does not want foreign member nations fiddling with its trade and whatnot, it can be totally reasonable.

Also, presumably WA committees cannot cause noncompliance through their actions, so they cannot take any money or resources earmarked for the many requirements other resolutions demand member nations provide. WA also cannot require internal taxation rates nor take money belonging to private people/businesses/institutions.

So depending on the RP reality, your arguments are not necessarily true.

I'm sure IA would have an argument against the claim that autarky works. The WA may not be able to reduce that money, but they can certainly offset that allocation with fines to effectively halt funding.

Untecna wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Need help deciding the amount of punishment my nation will take for WA violations. Basically, my nation has taken a hard stance against WA Pro-Choice resolutions- getting an abortion outside of the state (and the public)-approved cases is not just hard- after you get one you’ll most likely be treated as an unwanted guest everywhere, including government agencies, most of your friends and even relatives will turn away from you, and, of course, keeping your job (and finding a new one) will be near impossible. While this is less of an official policy and more of a “public voluntary agreement to boycott and bully abortion getters”, vocal support for this was voiced by the parliament and the monarch.
Speaking of other violations, the nation has hard anti-smoking laws, that go as far as banning production and storage of smoking devices in large quantities, alcohol is very heavily regulated as well, and all forms of drugs are banned with almost all drug-related crimes being classified as “heavy” with all the resulting consequences (our nation is really into discriminating against ex-heavy-convicts).
We also have had a death penalty, although recently it was replaced by something which can be possibly called fate worse than death. Chemically and surgically shaping one’s mind and personality into a functioning member of society. While such “operations” are conducted with some a great amount of safety and are usually successful, the whole nature of this “mandatory psychiatric treatment for extre-heavy-criminals” is quite controversial. Prisoner can be sentenced to such a sentence only after a long period of awaiting additional evidence that can prove him not guilty (like 20 years or something), a full analysis by nation’s leading psychologists, criminologists and psychiatrists, etc.
Also, while our nation has little to no political rights violations (yeah maybe the state religion feeds off the taxpayer’s money and it also has some privileges when dealing with government but nothing more than that), speaking of other possible civil rights abuses, the government keeps a heavy track of every citizen’s info. Anything they can find without violating one’s privacy, they will record, catalogue and store. And, as they have the technology and the men, they can find a lot. Social media is quite popular and as such getting info on citizen’s whereabouts is quite easy, even without analyzing the data.
Finally, all of the civ rights violations were approved on a national referendum which was ratified by international observers.

Just... don't then? I mean, you don't have to whip yourself every time you oppose a resolution. Or at all.

Kindly do not offer bad advice to players with questions. As stated below and elsewhere, the risks of noncompliance are established and failure to abide by them is godmodding.

Separatist Peoples wrote:

Araraukar wrote:All those (embargoes etc.) only apply to member nations, though. For a member nation that is on a planet otherwise populated by nonmembers and which does not want foreign member nations fiddling with its trade and whatnot, it can be totally reasonable.

Also, presumably WA committees cannot cause noncompliance through their actions, so they cannot take any money or resources earmarked for the many requirements other resolutions demand member nations provide. WA also cannot require internal taxation rates nor take money belonging to private people/businesses/institutions.

So depending on the RP reality, your arguments are not necessarily true.

I'm sure IA would have an argument against the claim that autarky works. The WA may not be able to reduce that money, but they can certainly offset that allocation with fines to effectively halt funding.

As said before me, while autarky may not work IRL, IRL does not necessarily mean that it won’t work in NS.
Laka Strolistandiler is, effectively, gay automated luxury communism without “gay” and “luxury”. The populace prefer to live quite ascetic lives, saving money on items that serve little to no practical usage (for example Lakan homes usually don’t have any wallpaper because the walls would be fine without em, television mostly plays educational and informational programs because entertainment in Lakan culture equals learning something practical and useful. Instead they are spending money and resources on things that are considered far more essential, like healthcare, saving up for the Great War (which will surely come one day), or making them as undependable from the society as possible.

Most Lakan citizens already live in a wierd hybrid of suburbia and farms, where automated, self-sufficient farming households are usually used quite equivalent to IRL US Suburbia (Laka has a 4-hour work day and 4-day work week due to immense automatization and as such people have enough time to get back from the work to home and take care of their household). As such, food production won’t be a problem.

Speaking about military production, our main export (to non-WA country that is), our military maintains a not-so-strict “only natural production” policy- almost every single part of our military equipment is internally manufactured, not imported (or it is manufactured within this non-WA country).

Also I should probably note that LS is a PMT 2040-2060 nation with cyberpunk-solarpunk hydrid technology but without normal cyberpunk social aesthetics.

Also, who or what is IA?

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Also, who or what is IA?

Imperium Anglorum, 40+ time GA author.

Jedinsto wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Also, who or what is IA?

Imperium Anglorum, 40+ time GA author.

Well then, let’s invite him into the discussion, shall we?

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:

Jedinsto wrote:Imperium Anglorum, 40+ time GA author.

Well then, let’s invite him into the discussion, shall we?

If you want to make a discussion about RP possibilities for noncompliance, make a [DISCUSSION] thread, that isn't what the Q&A thread is for.

And to SP, I didn't say it was necessarily a good idea or very feasible, but that "failed nation" is not an automatic result of properly RP'd noncompliance.

Separatist Peoples wrote:

Untecna wrote:Just... don't then? I mean, you don't have to whip yourself every time you oppose a resolution. Or at all.

Kindly do not offer bad advice to players with questions. As stated below and elsewhere, the risks of noncompliance are established and failure to abide by them is godmodding.

Noting that the WA is more of gameside then forum roleplay I rest my case.

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:

Untecna wrote:Just... don't then? I mean, you don't have to whip yourself every time you oppose a resolution. Or at all.

Well, I’ve talked about this with Separatist Peoples and he thinks that nations that oppose WA resolutions should RP the fines, and damage to economy that results in them. I agree with him.

Yeah, but that's forced RP, which is something you should never agree with, and besides, you can do pretty much whatever with the stats of your nation.

Untecna wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Well, I’ve talked about this with Separatist Peoples and he thinks that nations that oppose WA resolutions should RP the fines, and damage to economy that results in them. I agree with him.

Yeah, but that's forced RP, which is something you should never agree with, and besides, you can do pretty much whatever with the stats of your nation.

Untecta, kindly stop giving bad advice. I don't believe you have any idea what you're talking about.

Untecna wrote:

Laka Strolistandiler wrote:Well, I’ve talked about this with Separatist Peoples and he thinks that nations that oppose WA resolutions should RP the fines, and damage to economy that results in them. I agree with him.

Yeah, but that's forced RP, which is something you should never agree with, and besides, you can do pretty much whatever with the stats of your nation.

It's not forced RP, because rogue states are not required to be RPed as such. Sep is pointing out quite rightly that anything short of the heaviest penalties the WA can muster is godmodding if you openly refuse to comply with WA law, and that the WA RP scene is more than free to ignore that godmodding in favor of a more realistic set of circumstances.

Is the death penalty prohibited under WA law?

Dystopian English and Welsh Republic wrote:Is the death penalty prohibited under WA law?

Technically not in all cases (unless someone's done a repeal-replace when I wasn't looking), but in practice yes.

Araraukar wrote:

Dystopian English and Welsh Republic wrote:Is the death penalty prohibited under WA law?

Technically not in all cases (unless someone's done a repeal-replace when I wasn't looking), but in practice yes.

In what cases is it not banned? Last I checked DPB covered every situation other than military penal codes, and then MDPB covered the military.

Jedinsto wrote:

Araraukar wrote:Technically not in all cases (unless someone's done a repeal-replace when I wasn't looking), but in practice yes.

In what cases is it not banned? Last I checked DPB covered every situation other than military penal codes, and then MDPB covered the military.

Yeah, it's banned threefold now. There are no technicalities by which you can execute someone under WA law.

Wallenburg wrote:There are no technicalities by which you can execute someone under WA law.

That wasn't what they asked, though. Giving someone death penalty but then not actually executing them (sentence commuted to multiple life sentences instead) happens all the time in RL, so would be reasonable to imagine it could happen in NS as well?

Death Penalty Ban wrote:The death penalty is abolished except for crimes under a military penal code committed during time of war.

Military Death Penalty Ban wrote:Abolishes the death penalty for all crimes under the purview of military law;

It appears to me that these resolutions do in fact ban the death penalty, not specifically executions.

Potted Plants United wrote:

Wallenburg wrote:There are no technicalities by which you can execute someone under WA law.

That wasn't what they asked, though. Giving someone death penalty but then not actually executing them (sentence commuted to multiple life sentences instead) happens all the time in RL, so would be reasonable to imagine it could happen in NS as well?

A death penalty that is never enforced and is known to be impossible to enforce is not a death penalty.