[Final Call] Rights of Semi-Sapient Creatures

[The Palentine]

Oh goody, I hope this eventually makes it to vote. My Deputy, Philo Simeon as well as the Palentine Naval Dolphins will thoroughly enjoy this debate. rolls eyes
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

[-Astoria]

Support.

[Serbersia]

"Given you have not paid much attention outside of here or the multiverse in general, it's understandable you would fail to understand what I mean by "uplift". I am not talking of upgrading their rights to any given category, I am talking of uplifting the species from non-sapiency to full sapiency. Whether that requires genetic changes or simply intensive education from birth for more than one generation, depends on the species and how far down the evolutionary ladder it is. Your current proposal would ban treating them in this manner, even though you would be advancing the species through the evolutionary ladder to where they would become a people instead of just smart animals. Why do you wish to forbid this?"

Pausing a moment to ask a colleague to retrieve some papers on the subject, he makes some small quips regarding the building and the Woprld Assembly as a whole. Reading through the papers handed to him by the colleague, he eventually comes to a conclusion. "Ambassador, in the esteemed opinion of the Serber Delegation there is a serious discussion to be had about the morality of uplift, and how it may be, in fact, immoral to do so. What makes us the guardians of intelligence? Letting evolution run it's course is the greater solution, for we may often make the animals suffer in an attempt to perfect them."

"No thank you. And you might want to avoid drinking tea around here. It can have certain unintended effects on lifeforms such as yourself."

Slightly startled, the Ambassador Spiridon looks curiously at the tea. "Whatever do you mean?"

[Giant Bats]

Ikiti Tikilikrr, member of a species that might have reminded people of various other creatures, such as bats, porcupine, birds of prey and great white sharks, entered the chamber via the window, which the aerial carnivores used instead of the confining corridors, to move between places they wanted to go, and glided over the heads of the few ambassadors present, her six metre wingspan enabling her to command the airspace before landing on the perch behind the desk. She listened to the translator AI as it explained to her the topic and then spoke, without needing to open her jaws, as her mouth was for eating, not speaking. Not that the humanoid likely could have heard the frequencies either, but that was what the translating AI and the minute speakers on her cybernetic implants were for.

"I am a tenth generation sapient," she started, "and my species is still mid-uplift. Every new generation is more likely to solve their issues with words rather than their teeth and claws. Having to deal with Tikrr from other Roosts - you could call it a tribe or extended family - is difficult even for me, it makes me physically uncomfortable. But my children will likely be able to cooperate with others without a problem. The ones we call Liftgivers - you might translate that as aunts or big sisters who babysit and help raise children - selected my ancestors for this, because our world is dying, has been dying for millions of years. If left alone, they would have eventually died with the world, starving, suffering. Now, instead, we are able to travel to the stars to find other worlds to live on, to learn to deal with other living things as something else but potential food. You would have condemned us to suffer and die instead. Why? What gives you the right, given you are neither uplifted or uplifter?"

As she spoke, the spines on her back rose from their relaxed flat position to what was likely somewhat universal sign of annoyance. Only those intimately familiar with Tikrr, however, would have known that the spines worked as a forewarning for getting bitten. The Tikrr still considered biting an acceptable manner of communication when one ran out of patience and words.

- Ikiti Tikilikrr, the Head of Diplomatic Wing of the Tikrr, 10th generation mother of four

[Serbersia]

Ikiti Tikilikrr, member of a species that might have reminded people of various other creatures, such as bats, porcupine, birds of prey and great white sharks, entered the chamber via the window, which the aerial carnivores used instead of the confining corridors, to move between places they wanted to go, and glided over the heads of the few ambassadors present, her six metre wingspan enabling her to command the airspace before landing on the perch behind the desk. She listened to the translator AI as it explained to her the topic and then spoke, without needing to open her jaws, as her mouth was for eating, not speaking. Not that the humanoid likely could have heard the frequencies either, but that was what the translating AI and the minute speakers on her cybernetic implants were for.

"I am a tenth generation sapient," she started, "and my species is still mid-uplift. Every new generation is more likely to solve their issues with words rather than their teeth and claws. Having to deal with Tikrr from other Roosts - you could call it a tribe or extended family - is difficult even for me, it makes me physically uncomfortable. But my children will likely be able to cooperate with others without a problem. The ones we call Liftgivers - you might translate that as aunts or big sisters who babysit and help raise children - selected my ancestors for this, because our world is dying, has been dying for millions of years. If left alone, they would have eventually died with the world, starving, suffering. Now, instead, we are able to travel to the stars to find other worlds to live on, to learn to deal with other living things as something else but potential food. You would have condemned us to suffer and die instead. Why? What gives you the right, given you are neither uplifted or uplifter?"

As she spoke, the spines on her back rose from their relaxed flat position to what was likely somewhat universal sign of annoyance. Only those intimately familiar with Tikrr, however, would have known that the spines worked as a forewarning for getting bitten. The Tikrr still considered biting an acceptable manner of communication when one ran out of patience and words.

- Ikiti Tikilikrr, the Head of Diplomatic Wing of the Tikrr, 10th generation mother of four

"Ambassador, tell me: what did your people suffer in the process of uplift? Eugenics, genetic engineering, invasive procedures, and forced indoctrination with sapient values, I imagine may have been among the possibilities. If none of that, then this proposal should have no effect on the moral uplift you underwent. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is that sapients have a moral imperative to uplift semi-sapients and others even below that - this is simply untrue in our eyes.

By all means, we are glad you could join us today, but uplift is a morally neutral if not morally deficient proposition that can result in horrific and horrendous abuses of semi-sapients. I would like to pose the question to you: What gives us the rights, as sapients, to be the arbiters of intelligence? I agree it is morally wrong to leave a semi-sapient species like yours once was condemned to die, and that is precisely what this proposal addresses - RoSSC provides not only for those physical needs but also provides bodily autonomy and freedom.

Increasing intelligence is not a duty - it is not a moral imperative and therefore not really an important case."

[Araraukar]

OOC: I'll need some time to think of a response that doesn't involve Ikiti snatching your ambassador and flying with them outside, to try kill and eat them outside the Weapons Nullifiers' effect. Do note that the uplifters you're calling immoral wouldn't actually let her do that, for moral reasons, but basically I'll need to think of a way to get her to use words instead of teeth...

[Serbersia]

OOC: I'll need some time to think of a response that doesn't involve Ikiti snatching your ambassador and flying with them outside, to try kill and eat them outside the Weapons Nullifiers' effect. Do note that the uplifters you're calling immoral wouldn't actually let her do that, for moral reasons, but basically, I'll need to think of a way to get her to use words instead of teeth...

OOC: Do I let my dog maul my neighbors? No. I can still treat my dog immorally and not want it to misbehave for the sake of others. Before you attack me, it's an analogy. Of course, I don't abuse my dog.

Furthermore, I don't entirely see what the ambassador might find offensive? If her species wasn't abused and dramatically altered against their will during uplift (which in itself creates an entirely new species that can't reasonably be called what the previous one was), then that moral uplift is entirely within the limits of the resolution.

[Araraukar]

OOC: Do I let my dog maul my neighbors? No. I can still treat my dog immorally and not want it to misbehave for the sake of others. Before you attack me, it's an analogy. Of course, I don't abuse my dog.

OOC: I have no idea what you're going on about, ^here.

Furthermore, I don't entirely see what the ambassador might find offensive?

That's partly why she's so upset. Your blindness to situations other than your own and then you claiming you have the moral highground - it's same kind of thing, morally, as men wanting to legislate on how women use their wombs.

If her species wasn't abused

Amputating someone's leg without their consent sounds like horrible assault, until you learn that it was done to save their life.

and dramatically altered against their will

Animals can't consent, so it's really not against their will any more than humans creating new dog breeds is against the dogs' will.

(which in itself creates an entirely new species that can't reasonably be called what the previous one was)

Define species. Many RL fish could happily interbreed and produce viable offspring, but we still call them different species based on their looks and behaviour. The modern Tikrr and the pre-sapient Tikrr could probably interbreed successfully, just like modern RL humans and Neanderthals reproduced in the past successfully (we know this because large populations of RL people have genes inherited from Neanderthals), yet we think of us and them as different species. Different behaviour can cause speciation. Take lake trout populations, one spawns in the autumn, the other in the spring, they don't interbreed because of this behavioural distribution, though they probably could - eventually enough differences will pile up in their genomes that they'll count as different species, even if they could interbreed happily, genetics-wise.

then that moral uplift is entirely within the limits of the resolution.

I don't know what you mean by "moral uplift". Morality is a concept invented by sapient people, and what counts as morally right differs from culture to culture. Part of Ikiti's upset comes from your character trying to impose their culture's morality on every possible situation.

Would it be entirely impossible to just put a clause in the proposal that leaves the uplifting process outside the proposal's scope? Something like "Clarifies that this resolution does not address the concept or process of uplifting".

I realize that uplifting is something of a fringe concept, but then so's your imaginary semi-sapient category. So given that if such creatures exist, they'd be the most likely subjects of uplifting (since they'd be partway there already), and you'd be basically banning uplifting with a sideswipe. If you actually want to ban uplifting, write a proper resolution doing just that, don't do a half-assed job about it half-accidentally.

[Ignis Cinere]

The recently sworn-in ambassador of Ignis Cinere steps in. "I am unsure of the fact whether this issue has already been addressed, as I have only recently come, but what about their medical research rights? Sapient beings sometimes perform experiments on other beings, whether sapient, semi-sapient, or non-sapient. Sapient beings are often able to determine of their own free will to participate or not in medical studies in which they expose themselves to risks, and non-sapient beings are experimented upon anyway, due to their lack of comprehension concerning their situation and surroundings, but what about semi-sapient beings? Are they then, in-between? This will pose some ethical issues, then, as they may or may not understand what is going on." She retreats back to whatever invisible corner she came from.

[Serbersia]

The recently sworn-in ambassador of Ignis Cinere steps in. "I am unsure of the fact whether this issue has already been addressed, as I have only recently come, but what about their medical research rights? Sapient beings sometimes perform experiments on other beings, whether sapient, semi-sapient, or non-sapient. Sapient beings are often able to determine of their own free will to participate or not in medical studies in which they expose themselves to risks, and non-sapient beings are experimented upon anyway, due to their lack of comprehension concerning their situation and surroundings, but what about semi-sapient beings? Are they then, in-between? This will pose some ethical issues, then, as they may or may not understand what is going on." She retreats back to whatever invisible corner she came from.

"You make a good point." nods Ambassador Spiridon, "We will amend a clause to allow for necessary medical experimentation."

[Kenmoria]

“Clause 2 worries me slightly, because of the ‘in all capacities’. It appears to suggest that member nations must bar all killings of semi-sapient beings, even in the cases of self-defence or other justified instances.”

[Serbersia]

“Clause 2 worries me slightly, because of the ‘in all capacities’. It appears to suggest that member nations must bar all killings of semi-sapient beings, even in the cases of self-defence or other justified instances.”

"Ambassador, I understand your concern and implore you to take a look at Clause 9, in which it provides an exception for that particular situation (9.ii)."

EDIT, OOC: Ara, I've provided an exception in the case that the species itself is threatened such that uplift can be allowed for species like the one your puppet has which were in danger.

[Kenmoria]

“Clause 2 worries me slightly, because of the ‘in all capacities’. It appears to suggest that member nations must bar all killings of semi-sapient beings, even in the cases of self-defence or other justified instances.”

"Ambassador, I understand your concern and implore you to take a look at Clause 9, in which it provides an exception for that particular situation (9.ii)."

(OOC: It seems I really ought to have read ahead before posting that comment. )

[Serbersia]

"On account of the addressing of most major and minor qualms with the proposal we shall be moving towards submission this Saturday. Please offer any advice you can, and God Bless."

[Serbersia]

Ambassador Spiridon prepares to return from a night of final contacts to sleep. Tomorrow he will submit the legislation the Serber Delegation has been crafting for quite some time. "We plan to submit midday tomorrow."

[Araraukar]

Defines, for the purpose of this resolution, a "Semi-Sapient" as a species, animal or not, which exhibits the characteristics of being intelligent such as basic language, basic metacognition, and cultural practices while not being able to fully meet the following criteria of possessing the ability to:

1. Think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic;
   
   
2. Choose a sensible course of action or considered response;
   
   
3. Experience subjectively, feel, or recognize, discern, envision, understand, or attain awareness of.

OOC: Okay, now you have created an entirely new issue with this. That last one, especially "feel" - all sentient things and many things you wouldn't think are capable of it (fish, insects and crustaceans for example) are capable of feeling. At least in RL. So you run again into the problem of "these things I want to protect, don't exist". Even non-sapient AI don't fit it, because they use logic processes.

EDIT: Clause 10, what "said" semisapient species? That makes it sound like you're referring to a certain species rather than all of them. What does that refer to?

Oh and "cannon-fodder" is not a professional term. Just ban their use as soldiers - if they can't consent, then they're on par with children.