DRAFT: Reducing the Need for Abortions

[The New California Republic]

"Support, although forcing doctors to show ultrasound images or perhaps an endoscopy during an abortion also reduces the number of abortions."

What physical and psychological benefit does shoving a tube down an informed and non-consenting woman provide in every case you care to mention? And if it provides none but inflict psychological and physical abuse, is it against GAR#9? And thus would including this bit in the draft contradict GAR#9?

Yup it would. So combined with what I mentioned that's a double lock against his idea.

[Marxist Germany]

"Support, although forcing doctors to show ultrasound images or perhaps an endoscopy during an abortion also reduces the number of abortions."

What physical and psychological benefit does shoving a tube down an informed and non-consenting woman provide in every case you care to mention? And if it provides none but inflict psychological and physical abuse, is it against GAR#9? And thus would including this bit in the draft contradict GAR#9?

"It helps inform the woman of what she is inflicting upon her unborn child, although this is more of a personal preference for myself, Germany itself does not practice such policy and only uses ultrasounds during an abortion."

OOC: I myself do not hold the view that endoscopies are needed during an abortion as it is very invasive, fortunately, Klaus is just an extreme version of myself.

[Araraukar]

OOC: Wow, this got busy fast. Maybe I should oversleep my nap alarm more often...

"At last, an abortion resolution everyone can agree on!" Cornelia Schultz declares, while putting on a combat helmet and taking cover behind the nearest desk sturdy enough to survive a typical abortion debate.

IC: Having finally managed to unglue the pages of miss Leveret's last notebook, Linda compared her notes on this Schultz woman to the behaviour presented. In her own notebook she wrote, 'Schultz - possible nervous breakdown?' Out loud she said, "Uh, ma'am, this has nothing to do with an abortion debate. I'm fairly sure that one remains ongoing in one of the other debate chambers. The proposal concerns itself only with cases where the abortion is already legal in the nation, so its legality debate is not part of this. Other than that, are you alright?"

"Clause four should probably be rephrased to '...unbiased and thorough information about all of their options on their pregnancy...', to help better clarify."

"Thank you for the suggestion. We shall see what can be done about the wording in the next version of the draft."

I must admit that at first glance with the title I was leery about the contents of the proposal. Instead, I can happily say that the Federation is in support of the proposal as it provides a reasonable means of prevention without completely barring the procedure.

"Thank you for your support, but you have slightly misunderstood the point. The point is not to bar abortions in any way possible, given this applies only in cases where abortion is already legal - do you think this should be stated more clearly? It is the same as how drowning prevention methods reduce the need for drowning victim resuscitation situations. It does not try to bar the resuscitation situations at all, but tries to make it so that they're not actually necessary in the first place. I admit the simile is a bit off, but drowning came into mind as another one of those situations that Araraukar has been really proactive preventing by making potential situations where a drowning might occur, pretty rare."

6. Mandates that member nations ensure potential mothers adequate access to maternity healthcare, and that anything to do with maternity healthcare, including transport, treatments and specialist services be made free or easily affordable for them,

Maraculand does not believe in forcing tax payers to fund it's health care system. Will vote against this proposal.
If this proposal is rewritten in a way that free care is not a part of it, I believe it would be a fine document.

"Is your excellency aware of previous resolutions that already require your nation to provide all its inhabitants with affordable healthcare? Also, the proposal at hand does not actually require the state to pay for anything, just that they ensure the affordability. You could presumably make laws that require the funds to come from another source, such as insurance or employers or whatnot. But that debate really depends on your way of reading the previous resolutions, not this proposal."

"The seventh clause, concerning a 'postnatal maternity support system', ought to be extended to those other than biological mothers. In particular, fathers and adoptive parents."

"But this proposal specifically is about these systems as a means of reducing abortions. A prospective mother could decide not to abort, if their concern was not any kind of health issue or not actually wanting to be a parent, but rather not having extensive support net for the intense period of childcare that follows. If you want to write a resolution about childcare services for fathers and adoptive parents, you have my permission to use the wording of clause seven to do so. It is, however, outside the scope of this proposal."

Furthermore, my nation's primary issue with resolution is the requirement that "all potential mothers be given unbiased and thorough information about all topics." Simply put, nations are unable to provide "unbiased" information, as illustrated by Marxist Germany's post. Mothers should be given access to information, but frankly, it should not be thrust upon them. If a mother comes seeking an abortion, and has no interest in listening to the different options, a doctor should not be mandated to give them "all other options." Just give the abortion. We will not support the resolution unless it is amended to get rid of this unnecessary requirement. Doctors should not be forced, as Marxist Germany has so bluntly put it, to show anything if it is against the wishes of the mother.

"I think changing "given" into "provided" will solve the issue, since it can then be done with a simple leaflet to read through if they want. There's no lecturing requirement, or requirement that the potential mother actually peruse the information they're given, just that they be made aware of their options. As for the unbiased part, the beauty of the World Assembly is that if it requires member nations to do something, the nations are required to do so, whether they like it or not."

OOC: Without delving too far into forced RP, I don't think there's any other way to word it, but "unbiased" is a pretty strong word all on its own. And also, remember that this is not about preventing abortion. This is about providing alternatives to it.

"It helps inform the woman of what she is inflicting upon her unborn child, although this is more of a personal preference for myself, Germany itself does not practice such policy and only uses ultrasounds during an abortion."

IC: With surprising ease for someone as slim as her, Linda moved like a gymnast, grasping Klaus by a wrist and an ankle, pirouetting with him horizontal in the air like a hammer thrower, and then launched him through the open window. She stayed poised like a ballet dancer, until the gratifying sound of a splash sounded from somewhere below. She then brushed her hands together as if wiping off some filth, and returned to the podium.

"Now where were we? Ah, yes, a few details have already come up that need to be corrected, and we'll see about making some word changes to make some of the clauses more obvious. Expect a new draft in a few days. And of course, if any more questions come up, please, don't hesitate to ask."

OOC: I told you, no abortion debate.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"It helps inform the woman of what she is inflicting upon her unborn child, although this is more of a personal preference for myself, Germany itself does not practice such policy and only uses ultrasounds during an abortion."

IC: With surprising ease for someone as slim as her, Linda moved like a gymnast, grasping Klaus by a wrist and an ankle, pirouetting with him horizontal in the air like a hammer thrower, and then launched him through the open window. She stayed poised like a ballet dancer, until the gratifying sound of a splash sounded from somewhere below. She then brushed her hands together as if wiping off some filth, and returned to the podium.

Leo nods approvingly and holds up a large white cardboard square emblazoned with the number 9.8.

[Separatist Peoples]

IC: With surprising ease for someone as slim as her, Linda moved like a gymnast, grasping Klaus by a wrist and an ankle, pirouetting with him horizontal in the air like a hammer thrower, and then launched him through the open window. She stayed poised like a ballet dancer, until the gratifying sound of a splash sounded from somewhere below. She then brushed her hands together as if wiping off some filth, and returned to the podium.

Leo nods approvingly and holds up a large white cardboard square emblazoned with the number 9.8.

Bell rolls his eyes and holds up his own sign:

10

"So nitpicky."

"At any rate, I am opposed. This doesn't offend the small but vocal pro-life coalition nearly enough, ambassador, and I am therefore suspicious. Too suspicious."

[Terttia]

OOC EDIT: Opinions on the strength (or even category)?

All OOC: By my read, I think it’s definitely Social Justice, although one could argue Healthcare would be better.

I think that the strength is either Significant or Strong, assuming Social Justice is the correct category, because the text does in fact, by my read, increase the general welfare and health of a mother and newborn.

[Quinovia]

Furthermore, my nation's primary issue with resolution is the requirement that "all potential mothers be given unbiased and thorough information about all topics." Simply put, nations are unable to provide "unbiased" information, as illustrated by Marxist Germany's post. Mothers should be given access to information, but frankly, it should not be thrust upon them. If a mother comes seeking an abortion, and has no interest in listening to the different options, a doctor should not be mandated to give them "all other options." Just give the abortion. We will not support the resolution unless it is amended to get rid of this unnecessary requirement. Doctors should not be forced, as Marxist Germany has so bluntly put it, to show anything if it is against the wishes of the mother.

"I think changing "given" into "provided" will solve the issue, since it can then be done with a simple leaflet to read through if they want. There's no lecturing requirement, or requirement that the potential mother actually peruse the information they're given, just that they be made aware of their options. As for the unbiased part, the beauty of the World Assembly is that if it requires member nations to do something, the nations are required to do so, whether they like it or not."

OOC: Without delving too far into forced RP, I don't think there's any other way to word it, but "unbiased" is a pretty strong word all on its own. And also, remember that this is not about preventing abortion. This is about providing alternatives to it.

Given these considerations, and on the condition of the wording change from given to provided, we would be willing to support. However, wouldn't all this be accomplished more effectively if the focus was not just on reducing the need for abortions, but increasing women's access to healthcare overall? Not saying that we should change what is written, just a thought I had.

[Araraukar]

Given these considerations, and on the condition of the wording change from given to provided, we would be willing to support. However, wouldn't all this be accomplished more effectively if the focus was not just on reducing the need for abortions, but increasing women's access to healthcare overall? Not saying that we should change what is written, just a thought I had.

OOC: Answering this out of character, because it would be even more difficult for Linda to wrap her mind around the whole "why wouldn't women already have equal access to healthcare as anyone else?" thing, than it is to me, because of her RP reality background. Given CoCR bans discrimination based on sex and Quality in Healthcare (or whatever the exact title) requires nations to arrange everyone to have access to affordable healthcare, that's a bit of a nonstarter in the WA currently, because in compliant nations women already have full access to all necessary healthcare.

The reason I don't use "reaffirms" in clause 3 is because I'm more interested in putting all pregnant individuals on the same line with one another, rather than putting them on the same line with everyone else (since that has already been done by previous resolutions).

Hope that clears it up.

EDIT: Also, SL and SP, thank you for the high style scores.

[Kenmoria]

“Clause 4a has ‘incluing’ rather than ‘including ’.”

[Ontiun]

Have you considered nations which rely on energy created by abortions? How about nations which have economies which are dependent on the abortion industry? Nations in which undergoing an abortion is a rite of passage too would be adversely affected.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Have you considered nations which rely on energy created by abortions? How about nations which have economies which are dependent on the abortion industry? Nations in which undergoing an abortion is a rite of passage too would be adversely affected.

"No more would we account for the tiny minority of countries in which people eat nuclear waste for breakfast and unicorns shit cinnamon buns that people pick up off the ground and eat for dessert. Be serious, ambassador."

OOC: If resolution authors had to account for every wackjob RP that people came up with on this site, we would quite literally never get a single thing done. We respect your right to RP whatever you like, but we won't alter the basic assumptions that underlie GA RP to accommodate everyone's worlds.

[Marxist Germany]

"It helps inform the woman of what she is inflicting upon her unborn child, although this is more of a personal preference for myself, Germany itself does not practice such policy and only uses ultrasounds during an abortion."

IC: With surprising ease for someone as slim as her, Linda moved like a gymnast, grasping Klaus by a wrist and an ankle, pirouetting with him horizontal in the air like a hammer thrower, and then launched him through the open window. She stayed poised like a ballet dancer, until the gratifying sound of a splash sounded from somewhere below. She then brushed her hands together as if wiping off some filth, and returned to the podium.

"Now where were we? Ah, yes, a few details have already come up that need to be corrected, and we'll see about making some word changes to make some of the clauses more obvious. Expect a new draft in a few days. And of course, if any more questions come up, please, don't hesitate to ask."

Klaus was shocked by Linda's strength, alas, this is what happens to slender men, he thought to himself as he was leaving the pond and attempting to tend to the few cuts on his face...

[Excidium Planetis]

IC: Having finally managed to unglue the pages of miss Leveret's last notebook, Linda compared her notes on this Schultz woman to the behaviour presented. In her own notebook she wrote, 'Schultz - possible nervous breakdown?' Out loud she said, "Uh, ma'am, this has nothing to do with an abortion debate. I'm fairly sure that one remains ongoing in one of the other debate chambers. The proposal concerns itself only with cases where the abortion is already legal in the nation, so its legality debate is not part of this. Other than that, are you alright?"

"Yes, quite fine, in more ways than one." Schultz winks from behind her reinforced combat desk¹. "No need to worry about me or my imperiled life."

She watches as the new Araraukarian Ambassador gears up for a defenestration. Schultz ducks under the desk to avoid being hit as the Marxian² ambassador is launched into the Reflecting Pool, or perhaps some unrelated pool of some sort, it isn't exactly clear any more.

Klaus was shocked by Linda's strength, alas, this is what happens to slender men, he thought to himself as he was leaving the pond and attempting to tend to the few cuts on his face...

OOC:
I'm fairly sure the windows are made of sugar glass or some similar material, and wouldn't result in any kind of injury to anyone thrown through one.

Have you considered nations which rely on energy created by abortions? How about nations which have economies which are dependent on the abortion industry? Nations in which undergoing an abortion is a rite of passage too would be adversely affected.

"I'm sure there are alternative energy sources they could use." Cornelia responds. "Nobody is forced to use solar or wind or hydroelectric energy, I see no reason why they would be forced to use... er... abortion energy?

"As for nations which rely on abortion as the backbone of their economy... I'm sorry, what? What idiot nation would specialize in a very specific medical procedure as their primary... product? This is even worse than a banana republic in terms of economic egg baskets.

"Lastly, rites of passage are, as far as I know, always optional and not mandatory for life. You can do away with outdated cultural traditions should you so choose, I'm sure that females in such a society could make an educated decision on whether to undergo some weird abortion rite of passage or to... you know, just not.

"Seriously, these aren't even good arguments from the perspective of a person from a nomadic space nation, let alone from the perspective of a typical World Assembly ambassador..."



1 In reality, an ordinary wooden desk of reasonable sturdiness

2 "German" wouldn't be seen as correct by Schultz, as Germany is an ancient but well known Terran nation, that this Ambassador cannot possibly represent.

[Araraukar]

Klaus was shocked by Linda's strength, alas, this is what happens to slender men, he thought to himself as he was leaving the pond and attempting to tend to the few cuts on his face...

OOC: I'm fairly sure the windows are made of sugar glass or some similar material, and wouldn't result in any kind of injury to anyone thrown through one.

OOC: And it was an open window anyway.

[Mundiferrum]

"Contraception and sex education reduce the need for abortions. Wishy-washy bs about postnatal care and forcing GPs to tell expectant mothers where the nearest abortion clinic is do not."

Needless button pushing is needless button pushing. Of all the *ethical* methods to reduce the need for abortions, promoting a culture of contraception is probably the most effective. If the ambassador really didn't want to breed controversy, why did they put in the title of their proposal on maternal care the big A?

It's not so much that the quality of the text itself may or may not be in question, but the quality of a resolution as a whole depends on the larger context. And the context here is unclear, if not downright suspicious. We cannot tell if the author means to jeopardize their own otherwise uncontroversial resolution by bringing up abortion, or if the author means to introduce another stupid repeal-and-replace.

Shift the conversation to what the resolution actually does by changing the title, or honestly address the need for abortions by encouraging contraception.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"I must echo my colleagues' confusion that a proposal to reduce the necessity and incidence of abortion doesn't bother to utilize the single most important tool in that box - contraception - in more than a severely limited, hamstrung, I might even say castrated way. The biggest predictor of abortion is pregnancy - obviously non-pregnant persons do not need or want abortions - and so the clearest, most obvious method of reducing abortions is reducing pregnancies. This proposal not only closes the barn door after the horses have left, it waves at them as they're galloping away. There are some good provisions in here, but they reduce the need for a relatively small number of abortions, not the need for abortions generally."

"Ambassador Gravellius has it right: either don't distract from a resolution on maternity aids by linking it badly to abortion, or go whole hog on reducing abortions and talk about contraception for all, not just people for whom it's already too late."

[WayNeacTia]

"At any rate, I am opposed. This doesn't offend the small but vocal pro-life coalition nearly enough, ambassador, and I am therefore suspicious. Too suspicious."

I would be forced to agree.

[Separatist Peoples]

"At any rate, I am opposed. This doesn't offend the small but vocal pro-life coalition nearly enough, ambassador, and I am therefore suspicious. Too suspicious."

I would be forced to agree.

"Forced to? If you enjoy fireworks, ambassador, you should be overjoyed to agree!"

[Yannia]

4. Requires that all potential mothers be given unbiased and thorough information about all of their options, when they seek help for their condition, including but not limited to,

1. different methods of abortion, including the potential complications and danger to the potential mother, and the required aftercare,
2. the processes of pregnancy and birth, including the potential complications and danger to them and their offspring,
3. different methods of delivering their offspring alive, and the required aftercare,
4. adoption options, both national and international,
5. parenthood, both the positive and negative effects on their life, and
6. reliable methods of preventing pregnancies,

Hmm. I have serious problems with this section...

As my colleague from Sierra Lyricallia has said, f) is a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted... I mean, to prevent abortions due to unwanted pregnancies, one should give information about, and access to, contraceptives before another gets pregnant in the first place.

The rest feels like a delaying tactic, trying to delay the abortion until it is legally too late to be performed.

Not to mention that the whole section is utterly patronizing to women, who rarely, if ever, decide to have an abortion on a whim. I mean, they'll have thought of alternatives and consequences long before they come to a clinic to have the abortion, so why force them to go through the whole process again? Get rid of it! Actually, get rid of the whole resolution!

[Araraukar]

I mean, to prevent abortions due to unwanted pregnancies, one should give information about, and access to, contraceptives before another gets pregnant in the first place.

OOC: There already is a sex ed resolution. I can't significantly copy it without running into duplication issues.

The rest feels like a delaying tactic, trying to delay the abortion until it is legally too late to be performed.

There's no cut-off date for abortions in the WA.

Not to mention that the whole section is utterly patronizing to women, who rarely, if ever, decide to have an abortion on a whim. I mean, they'll have thought of alternatives and consequences long before they come to a clinic to have the abortion, so why force them to go through the whole process again? Get rid of it! Actually, get rid of the whole resolution!

Annnnd the proposal is requiring they be given that info about the alternatives and consequences in an unbiased manner, so you should actually be in favour of this! This is meant to aid in making the decision, before you ever even go in and say abortion please. Also at least in RL Finland there are no separate abortion clinics and the system works pretty much as described; you need to be aware of your options, but there's no campaign to put you off from having an abortion.

[Mundiferrum]

some ooc stats:

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psr ... rspectives

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/i ... ted-states

i think it's important to note that
a lot of these abortions are basically oopsie-daisies: a person uses contraception, it fails, they need to abort. this doesn't undermine the necessity of contraception, though, partly because this doesn't diminish the actual effectiveness of contraception, but also because....
a lot of these abortions are done by people who literally can't afford to raise a child. now, we could discuss the ethics about letting kids be raised by unwilling, potentially abusive parents, but more importantly....
a lot of these abortions are done on women *who already had children*. you're gonna be teaching alternatives to women who already *know* the alternatives, specifically about 60% of them. and considering the other stat -- 75% are poor -- and the other paper, i think an important consideration when it comes to abortion is not just "i can't afford to raise a kid!", but also "i can't afford the 3-6 months of troubles at work, school, etc., caused by being pregnant!"

[Araraukar]

a lot of these abortions are done by people who literally can't afford to raise a child.

OOC: Which in Real Life is a problem in some nations. In NSWA, there is a WA resolution that requires nations to provide the basics (shelter, food, basic amenities, education and healthcare) to their inhabitants. It's required. So while being on minimum income is in itself in my opinion a good reason to not want children (one of the reasons cited by many on a Finnish forum where people talk about parenthood, that I have been reading for the last three months or so - Finland has a working welfare system and would actually be compliant with WA law), as you could only offer them the very basics and nothing more (and you wanted them to have more), in compliant WA nations the "literally can't afford" thing shouldn't be a thing, or else the nations are not compliant.

a lot of these abortions are done on women *who already had children*. you're gonna be teaching alternatives to women who already *know* the alternatives

Please point out where the proposal uses the word "teach"? (And do note that "given" will be changed into "provided" in the next draft.) If they already know their stuff, then they already know their stuff. So if they're given an info leaflet, they can just throw it in the bin. What's the big deal?

but also "i can't afford the 3-6 months of troubles at work, school, etc., caused by being pregnant!"

Hence clause 8.

---

OOC: For anyone wanting to go on about the prevention of pregnancies in the first place, through use of preventatives, please direct your comments here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=481116

[Bananaistan]

"We still think that having GPs tell all expectant mothers about abortion services is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and mildly offensive. As is the requirement for talk of adoption."

[Mundiferrum]

clause eight is bond with their *newborn*. it's rather more difficult to resolve the natural discomfort that comes with the actual process of being pregnant

as for "one useless leaflet", multiplied by the population of mothers desiring an abortion, and it seems much more like a tremendous waste of paper

[Araraukar]

OOC: My apologies for not getting a new draft out yet; I've lost two days doing little else but sleeping. Can't even explain why, except that sleep was obviously needed. I've read all the feedback and will try to get a new draft out ASAP (though not tonight, sleep is still needed and I'm making far too many typos when writing English, currently, to want to tackle important text).