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[Closed] Ban on electric collars

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Anskerdank
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jan 01, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

[Closed] Ban on electric collars

Postby Anskerdank » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:08 am

Category: Moral Decency
Strength: Mild

The General Assembly,

Recognising the effect on an animal’s health

Acknowledges that they can be used to prevent animals from escaping

Noting that they can be abused easily

Hereby,

Defines an electric collar as a collar used to shock animals leaving boundaries

Bans the sale and use of all electric collars
Last edited by Anskerdank on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kenmoria
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Posts: 5585
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:16 am

(OOC: Welcome to the General Assembly. Well done for posting a draft here rather than straight onto the submission page, as this gives time for the legislation to be improved. Personally, I think that electric collars are too niche and specific a subject for supranational legislation. You could perhaps focus on animal cruelty more generally.)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:18 am

"Banning something for its potential of abuse rather than addressing instances of actual abuse makes for poor policy and bad law, ambassador. Opposed."

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Authority on All Existence,
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Bears Armed
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 19163
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:45 am

OOC
Category & Strength are correct, anyway.

And "Congratulations" for having the sense to post here first, instead of just going straight ahead & submitting it...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:12 pm

Anskerdank wrote:
Category: Moral Decency
Strength: Mild

The General Assembly,

Recognising the effect on an animal’s health

Acknowledges that they can be used to prevent animals from escaping

Noting that they can be abused easily

Hereby,

Defines an electric collar as a collar used to shock animals leaving boundaries

Bans the sale and use of all electric collars

OOC: The definition would make this not apply to many electric collars used in RL. (I haven't personally ever heard of that use for them.)

Also, the preamble talks about "them" without any reference of what it's talking about. The title does not count as part of the proposal text.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Denathor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 553
Founded: Oct 22, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Denathor » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:31 pm

You’ll have to be a bit more specific on your points if you expect support for this. For example:
Anskerdank wrote:Recognising the effect on an animal’s health

The effects of what, and what are they?

Anskerdank wrote:Acknowledges that they can be used to prevent animals from escaping

From where? In what context?

Anskerdank wrote:Noting that they can be abused easily

How?

Anskerdank wrote:Defines an electric collar as a collar used to shock animals leaving boundaries

You need a better definition here. This feels awkward.

Anskerdank wrote:Bans the sale and use of all electric collars

Under all circumstances?
Ambassador to the World Assembly: Sir Lucas Callahan
Deputy Ambassador to the World Assembly: Randal Atkinson
Undersecretary to the Ambassador: Thomas Morgan

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The COT Corporation
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 194
Founded: Nov 30, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby The COT Corporation » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:28 am

Bears Armed wrote:OOC
Category & Strength are correct, anyway.

And "Congratulations" for having the sense to post here first, instead of just going straight ahead & submitting it...

This. Lucky they didn't make the same mistake I did when I joined...
- Juleas Brimstone, recently elected WA ambassador. Author of the proposal, Limitation of Inhumane Weaponry.

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Teretstein
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 47
Founded: Sep 25, 2010
Anarchy

Postby Teretstein » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:54 am

Ambassador,

Please suggest an alternative to keep an animal confined in its own designated area if you want me to support this. There is no chance that I will support a bill that allows a dog (which are almost always the recipients of these collars) to roam free in a neighborhood without some method of restraint.

Do you suggest that the owner always be present and have a choke collar on the animal when outdoors?

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:55 pm

Teretstein wrote:Ambassador,

Please suggest an alternative to keep an animal confined in its own designated area if you want me to support this. There is no chance that I will support a bill that allows a dog (which are almost always the recipients of these collars) to roam free in a neighborhood without some method of restraint.

Do you suggest that the owner always be present and have a choke collar on the animal when outdoors?

"Have you never heard of fences, ambassador?" Linda asked with a raised eyebrow.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Stateless Territories
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Nov 11, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stateless Territories » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:59 pm

I approve

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Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 2738
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:40 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Teretstein wrote:Ambassador,

Please suggest an alternative to keep an animal confined in its own designated area if you want me to support this. There is no chance that I will support a bill that allows a dog (which are almost always the recipients of these collars) to roam free in a neighborhood without some method of restraint.

Do you suggest that the owner always be present and have a choke collar on the animal when outdoors?

"Have you never heard of fences, ambassador?" Linda asked with a raised eyebrow.

"Fences may be climbed, jumped, or dug under. More layers are rarely a bad idea when preventing escape.", Sofia Kerman states with the air of a teacher lecturing a particularly slow pupil, "In fact, there is a neighborhood near mine in which, due to an otherwise popular local ordinance, fences may not be more than four feet in height. One particularly lazy resident has ill-trained dogs that regularly hop the fence.", she continues in the same manner, "Well, had. They were confiscated and rehomed after one of them attacked and killed a neighbor's cat. So long as they are not being abused, electric collars are nothing more than another tool in the toolbox for keeping animals where they ought to be. Abusus non tollit usum, Ambassadors."
Last edited by Jebslund on Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:43 am

"And you both exhibit appalling lack of knowledge of discipline and training. A well-trained dog will not jump fences, no matter their height. Unless you will happily install shock collars on misbehaving citizenry as well, your claim of it being harmless and effective lacks in believability."

OOC: Dogs are not popular pets in Araraukar, only working dogs (law enforcement, guarding, sheepdogs, guide dogs) basically, so in Linda's experience an unruly dog should be put down as it's unfit for service.
Last edited by Araraukar on Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 2738
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 am

Araraukar wrote:"And you both exhibit appalling lack of knowledge of discipline and training. A well-trained dog will not jump fences, no matter their height. Unless you will happily install shock collars on misbehaving citizenry as well, your claim of it being harmless and effective lacks in believability."

OOC: Dogs are not popular pets in Araraukar, only working dogs (law enforcement, guarding, sheepdogs, guide dogs) basically, so in Linda's experience an unruly dog should be put down as it's unfit for service.

"Ah. I see you've discovered a way to speak with dogs and rehabilitate them through methods other than carrot-and-stick methodology.", Sofia Kerman sarcastically answers, "Care to share the secret?", she asks, pausing briefly for effect before continuing in the tone one uses when dealing with someone rather dull-witted, "In case you missed the sarcasm, Ambassador, one does not put shock collars on the citizenry for the simple reason that we have still more effective methods of keeping them in line, most not involving even the minor discomfort of a properly-adjusted shock collar, which, before you comment, I have worn and had used on me. I am not sure how humans operate, but Kerbals are able to reason and communicate through words by way of a shared language. We are able to teach our young discipline from a very young age, instill in them values which are compatible with living in a society, and offer them the means to live a life not involving crimes. Those who misbehave may be retrained and helped to move past whatever the root of their misbehavior is. These are things dogs, unless I've missed some great evolutionary leap, are incapable of. There is also the small matter of the animals not being born fully trained. There is an interim period, which, especially with animals confiscated from neglectful owners, the animals will still act like untrained animals. Even then, such devices are ideally the last line of defenses, not the first.".
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:28 pm

Jebslund wrote:"There is also the small matter of the animals not being born fully trained. There is an interim period, which, especially with animals confiscated from neglectful owners, the animals will still act like untrained animals. Even then, such devices are ideally the last line of defenses, not the first.".

"And while the animals is untrained, there's no reason to let it out unsupervised. It's not that hard a concept, really."
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 384
Founded: May 27, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Liberimery » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:06 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Anskerdank wrote:
Category: Moral Decency
Strength: Mild

The General Assembly,

Recognising the effect on an animal’s health

Acknowledges that they can be used to prevent animals from escaping

Noting that they can be abused easily

Hereby,

Defines an electric collar as a collar used to shock animals leaving boundaries

Bans the sale and use of all electric collars

OOC: The definition would make this not apply to many electric collars used in RL. (I haven't personally ever heard of that use for them.)

Also, the preamble talks about "them" without any reference of what it's talking about. The title does not count as part of the proposal text.



OOC: I actually used it on my dog to stop her from escaping exactly once (because she stopped trying after that.). Long story short she was prone to running around the neighborhood and there was a school within view of the house and a major highway not that much further away. She only really ran when she was chased, so it was play for her and she couldn’t understand why it was not something we enjoyed but couldn’t break her of the habit. On the occasion we had the shock collar we knew she was digging under a fence so we got the shock collar to stop her so I could close the gap. I will admit to not operating the device properly, but even on max setting for the collar, the shock was not harmful enough to do any damage.

She passed away late last year some 10 years after the incident, at an average age for her breed. She also never ran far from me since that day.

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The Land of the Ephyral
Diplomat
 
Posts: 570
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:22 am

"But how else are we meant to control our slaves?" - Diplomatic Legate to the WA of the Freehold

Ephyra is a work of my own political and philosophical views fused with deliberate values dissonance for my own entertainment.

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The New Nordic Union
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 421
Founded: Jul 08, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The New Nordic Union » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:33 am

The Land of the Ephyral wrote:"But how else are we meant to control our slaves?" - Diplomatic Legate to the WA of the Freehold


Katrin slides towards the Diplomatic Legate a pamphlet which is titled 'General Assembly Resolution #23: Ban on Slavery and Trafficking'.
Permanent Representative of the Nordic Union to the World Assembly: Katrin við Keldu

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The Land of the Ephyral
Diplomat
 
Posts: 570
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Land of the Ephyral » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:18 am

The New Nordic Union wrote:Katrin slides towards the Diplomatic Legate a pamphlet which is titled 'General Assembly Resolution #23: Ban on Slavery and Trafficking'.


"Ah I'm sure it's just a guideline."

Ephyra is a work of my own political and philosophical views fused with deliberate values dissonance for my own entertainment.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:55 pm

Liberimery wrote:OOC: I actually used it on my dog to stop her from escaping exactly once (because she stopped trying after that.)

OOC: So in other words you used it as a training aid, which is how I've heard of it being used before, rather than having it on her all the time?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 384
Founded: May 27, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Liberimery » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:59 am

Araraukar wrote:
Liberimery wrote:OOC: I actually used it on my dog to stop her from escaping exactly once (because she stopped trying after that.)

OOC: So in other words you used it as a training aid, which is how I've heard of it being used before, rather than having it on her all the time?


You are supposed to have it on at times until the correct behavior is learned. We also looked into invisible fences which lays an underground perimeter that will send signals to a collar if approached or crossed (the shock is sounded when the line is cross and a warning sound is triggered if to close) but for geography of our property it was not feasible.

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Free Santa Rosa
Attaché
 
Posts: 69
Founded: Sep 23, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Free Santa Rosa » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:48 am

Comrades, we are forgetting a crucial aspect of this legislation, should electric collars be banned - it also means usage on... other matters becomes illegal. And I don't know about you, fellow ambassadors, but the World Assembly should not be in the business of checking in on somebody else's business.

OOC: I seriously thought for a moment this was about something else and boy am I glad that it wasn't

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Unicode202
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Feb 14, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

[Draft] Ban on electric collars

Postby Unicode202 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:55 pm

negative

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Kaltovar
Envoy
 
Posts: 280
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kaltovar » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:11 pm

Anskerdank wrote:Category: Moral Decency

Eugh

Anskerdank wrote:Recognising the effect on an animal’s health

A bit pedantic, but, did you mean affect? What affect are you talking about? Do shock collars make your pets explode? There is possibly an argument for mental health damage, but I'm not aware of any physical health affects.
Anskerdank wrote:Acknowledges that they can be used to prevent animals from escaping


I have never heard of them being used in this way. They're universally used to stop barking, or on a remote control for general purposes.
Anskerdank wrote:Noting that they can be abused easily


A stick or a fist can be abused easily. Should we ban dead wood and human limbs?

Anskerdank wrote:Defines an electric collar as a collar used to shock animals leaving boundaries

By your definition, 99.9999% of all electric collars on the market would not be affected by this proposal.
Anskerdank wrote:Bans the sale and use of all electric collars

If not for the fact that it doesn't actually ban the sale of electric collars because of how it defines them, I'd take issue with this - There's a great many intimate situations I've experienced with other humans that were made more enjoyable through the employ of shock collars.

In conclusion, I find this resolution to be overly broad in intention yet too narrow in execution. It is wretchedly moralistic, lacks understanding of it's own language, and attempts to solve a problem by taking away my toys rather than punishing the people who misbehave directly.

Write a resolution stating that animal abusers will be lined up against a wall and [REDACTED] with bayonets and I shall support it. As it stands, I reject this absurd legislation on it's face!
Last edited by Kaltovar on Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.
INB4 somebody uses my Iron Cross to Blues Clues out my SecretFascism™ the words immediately next to it are "From Many Peoples One Nation" and the Iron Cross is a symbol that has existed since 1813 which Nazis stole Prussian Valor by wearing because they couldn't fight and wanted to LARP as an army that could.


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