NATION

PASSWORD

[Legality Challenge] Repeal: "Nuclear Arms Possession Act"

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.
User avatar
Verdant Haven
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

[Legality Challenge] Repeal: "Nuclear Arms Possession Act"

Postby Verdant Haven » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:24 pm

Legality Challenge

As this proposal has now surprisingly been marked "Legal" by its first reviewer, and there is no discussion thread to raise the question of legality, I am filing this legality challenge.

Proposal in question

Repeal: “Nuclear Arms Possession Act”

A resolution to repeal previously passed legislation.

Category: Repeal Resolution: GA#10 Proposed by: Byni

General Assembly Resolution #10 “Nuclear Arms Possession Act” (Category: International Security; Strength: Mild) shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

About 80 years ago humanity got a weapon that could destroy ourselves.
This weapon was the Atom Bomb. 146,000 people died from the dropping of only two of weaker versions of this bomb. Now we have stronger bombs that could kill even more people.
So why should the world allow these weapons to be used!
Why: This weapon is to powerful to be allowed in this world to many people die from its power.
Why should we allow this weapon in the world if it can kill so many.
So please vote wisely and repeal this act.


Original Thread

I am not aware of any drafting thread associated with this submission.

Basis of Challenge

A) This proposal runs afoul of the GA Rule against Real World References. It does this in the following manner:

- The first line of the proposal text is a reference to the development of the atomic bomb approximately 80 years ago - culminating in the successful Trinity test in July of 1945
- The second line of the proposal text is a reference to the bombing of the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in August of 1945

B) Additionally, this proposal may run afoul of the requirement to use Understandable English:

- There is questionable grammar and incorrect homophone usage throughout the proposal. Specific examples include:

1) Substitution of an exclamation point for a question mark in line 3
2) Multiple uses of "to" in place of "too" in line 4
3) Substitution of a period for a question mark in line 5
4) Line 6 is not a sentence
5) There are issues with voice and agreement in line 1.

C) Finally, it may contradict the prohibition against Branding:

- Based on context and prohibited real world reference, the instances of the pronoun "we" in line 2 and line 5 are both clearly as personal pronouns to refer to humans outside of the NationStates game.


Precedent

The present list of submitted GA proposals includes two proposals ruled illegal on the basis of Real World References:

Specifically, "Provision Of Universal Healthcare" has been ruled illegal on this basis by all three reviewing members of the Secretariat.
Similarly, "Protecting The Rights Of Indigenous People" has been ruled illegal for the same reason, by the same reviewers.

User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:48 pm

Since at the time of filing only 1 of 6 gensec members had weighed in on this via control panel, this is a very premature challenge.

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat,
Authority on All Existence,
Globalist Dog,
Dark Psychic Vampire, and
Chief Populist Elitist!


User avatar
Sierra Lyricalia
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 3509
Founded: Nov 29, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:02 pm

I think you'd have a hard time proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the reference to that many deaths "80 years ago" can only point to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On that basis I marked the proposed repeal legal.

On further reflection, the last line makes clear that there are other problems with this proposed repeal, and I have acted accordingly.
Principal-Agent, Anarchy; Squadron Admiral, The Red Fleet
The Semi-Honorable Leonid Berkman Pavonis
Author: 354 GA / Issues 436, 451, 724
Ambassador Pro Tem
Tech Level: Complicated (or not: 7/0/6 i.e. 12) / RP Details
.
Jerk, Ideological Deviant, MT Army stooge, & "red [who] do[es]n't read" (various)
.
Illustrious Bum #279


User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:I think you'd have a hard time proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the reference to that many deaths "80 years ago" can only point to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On that basis I marked the proposed repeal legal.

On further reflection, the last line makes clear that there are other problems with this proposed repeal, and I have acted accordingly.


I'm... not sure reasonable doubt is the standard?

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat,
Authority on All Existence,
Globalist Dog,
Dark Psychic Vampire, and
Chief Populist Elitist!


User avatar
Sierra Lyricalia
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 3509
Founded: Nov 29, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Sierra Lyricalia wrote:I think you'd have a hard time proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the reference to that many deaths "80 years ago" can only point to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On that basis I marked the proposed repeal legal.

On further reflection, the last line makes clear that there are other problems with this proposed repeal, and I have acted accordingly.


I'm... not sure reasonable doubt is the standard?


Omit those four words if you like, then. The alternative to this repeal language being legal is that we use a standard of "I know it when I see it" for determining RL refs. When it's that oblique, it may as well be someone's RP or a random argument. I wasn't about to mark it illegal on such apparently tenuous grounds.

We might hold a ruling otherwise, of course.
Principal-Agent, Anarchy; Squadron Admiral, The Red Fleet
The Semi-Honorable Leonid Berkman Pavonis
Author: 354 GA / Issues 436, 451, 724
Ambassador Pro Tem
Tech Level: Complicated (or not: 7/0/6 i.e. 12) / RP Details
.
Jerk, Ideological Deviant, MT Army stooge, & "red [who] do[es]n't read" (various)
.
Illustrious Bum #279


User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14433
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:05 am

There's also the "not written as law" thing.

And if you want to claim the events are not RL reference, then it's talking about their roleplay and the "we" is definite branding.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
The COT Corporation
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 191
Founded: Nov 30, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby The COT Corporation » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:11 am

Araraukar wrote:There's also the "not written as law" thing.

And if you want to claim the events are not RL reference, then it's talking about their roleplay and the "we" is definite branding.

^This
- Juleas Brimstone, recently elected WA ambassador. Author of the proposal, Limitation of Inhumane Weaponry.

User avatar
Bears Armed
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 19161
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:32 am

The submitted proposal's current status is
Illegal (3): Separatist Peoples, Sierra Lyricalia, Bears Armed
.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152.

User avatar
Bananaistan
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 2465
Founded: Apr 20, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bananaistan » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:04 am

Bears Armed wrote:The submitted proposal's current status is
Illegal (3): Separatist Peoples, Sierra Lyricalia, Bears Armed
.


+1
Delegation of the People's Republic of Bananaistan to the World Assembly
Head of delegation and the Permanent Representative: Comrade Ambassador Theodorus "Ted" Hornwood
General Assistant and Head of Security: Comrade Watchman Brian of Tarth
There was the Pope and John F. Kennedy and Jack Charlton and the three of them were staring me in the face.

User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14433
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:33 am

Current reasonings, for later reference:
Illegal — Real world references
Illegal — Proposal Basics (Not written as a law; not written from the WA's viewpoint [final line]); RL References; arguably 'No Operative Clause'.
Illegal — Proposal basics: Not written from WA POV (final line), not written as a law
Illegal — Real world references

Though I thought the "no operative clause" no longer applied on repeals?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Bears Armed
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 19161
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:48 am

Araraukar wrote:Current reasonings, for later reference:
Illegal — Real world references
Illegal — Proposal Basics (Not written as a law; not written from the WA's viewpoint [final line]); RL References; arguably 'No Operative Clause'.
Illegal — Proposal basics: Not written from WA POV (final line), not written as a law
Illegal — Real world references

Though I thought the "no operative clause" no longer applied on repeals?

Oops!
Put that down to my being confused because of its wording...
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152.

User avatar
Verdant Haven
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Verdant Haven » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 pm

My apologies for the premature challenge. As there was no drafting thread to discuss it in, the first "legal" flag had popped, and the approvals had begun to appear, I thought it better to err on the side of giving plenty of time for review rather than waiting until later in the process.

I am genuinely appreciative of the numerous responses here from the Secretariat and others, and will note for the future that I should hold back a bit longer before pursuing a challenge.

User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14433
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:51 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:My apologies for the premature challenge. As there was no drafting thread to discuss it in, the first "legal" flag had popped, and the approvals had begun to appear, I thought it better to err on the side of giving plenty of time for review rather than waiting until later in the process.

I am genuinely appreciative of the numerous responses here from the Secretariat and others, and will note for the future that I should hold back a bit longer before pursuing a challenge.

Eh, you don't really need to apologize very profusely - if the GenSec peeps think a challenge is completely unnecessary, they're not obligated to process it. They have that "power". ;)
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:02 pm

Verdant Haven wrote:My apologies for the premature challenge. As there was no drafting thread to discuss it in, the first "legal" flag had popped, and the approvals had begun to appear, I thought it better to err on the side of giving plenty of time for review rather than waiting until later in the process.

I am genuinely appreciative of the numerous responses here from the Secretariat and others, and will note for the future that I should hold back a bit longer before pursuing a challenge.

Generally, either post in the Illegal Proposal thread (is that thing even around anymore?) or wait until three members voted before making a thread. By then you're assured that a majority or close to it have seen it and missed something rather than not getting to it in the first place.

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat,
Authority on All Existence,
Globalist Dog,
Dark Psychic Vampire, and
Chief Populist Elitist!


User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14433
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:41 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:Generally, either post in the Illegal Proposal thread (is that thing even around anymore?)

It was posted there and commented there and that's why this thread exists, really, because you can probably blame me for not repeating the "unless it looks to be in danger of getting to vote", though the current at-vote thing snuck over quorum overnight, so over-reaction or not, there was a live example of why waiting can court disaster.

EDIT: This thread was posted before Bears' post on the Illegals thread.
Last edited by Araraukar on Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Wayneactia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 842
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:44 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:Generally, either post in the Illegal Proposal thread (is that thing even around anymore?)

It was posted there and commented there and that's why this thread exists, really, because you can probably blame me for not repeating the "unless it looks to be in danger of getting to vote", though the current at-vote thing snuck over quorum overnight, so over-reaction or not, there was a live example of why waiting can court disaster.

EDIT: This thread was posted before Bears' post on the Illegals thread.

It wouldn't have passed anyway, and it would have taken a few days before it went to vote. This whole issue was highly unnecessary.

User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14679
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:58 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Araraukar wrote:It was posted there and commented there and that's why this thread exists, really, because you can probably blame me for not repeating the "unless it looks to be in danger of getting to vote", though the current at-vote thing snuck over quorum overnight, so over-reaction or not, there was a live example of why waiting can court disaster.

EDIT: This thread was posted before Bears' post on the Illegals thread.

It wouldn't have passed anyway, and it would have taken a few days before it went to vote. This whole issue was highly unnecessary.

Not really. Part of gensec's job is weeding out illegal proposals in the queue. We usually are giving proposals a brief once-over, not an in depth scan. So when we miss things, the community should totally speak up.

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat,
Authority on All Existence,
Globalist Dog,
Dark Psychic Vampire, and
Chief Populist Elitist!


User avatar
Morover
Diplomat
 
Posts: 547
Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Libertarian Police State

Postby Morover » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:01 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:It wouldn't have passed anyway, and it would have taken a few days before it went to vote. This whole issue was highly unnecessary.

Not really. Part of gensec's job is weeding out illegal proposals in the queue. We usually are giving proposals a brief once-over, not an in depth scan. So when we miss things, the community should totally speak up.

Just a question for the sake of clarity: Should we post issues with proposals which are not in danger of going to vote here or in the illegal proposals thread? I was under the impression that it's better to speak up in the illegal proposals thread, but if that's not the case, then I'll cease that kind of thinking.

User avatar
Bears Armed
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 19161
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:14 am

Morover wrote:Just a question for the sake of clarity: Should we post issues with proposals which are not in danger of going to vote here or in the illegal proposals thread? I was under the impression that it's better to speak up in the illegal proposals thread, but if that's not the case, then I'll cease that kind of thinking.

In the 'Illegal Proposals' thread is probably best, usually, yes.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General Assembly

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Albaeara, Denathor, North Jericho, Sciongrad, Tinhampton

Advertisement

Remove ads