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[Draft] Ethical Treatment of Animals in Research

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Teretstein
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 47
Founded: Sep 25, 2010
Anarchy

Postby Teretstein » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:48 am

Araraukar wrote:
Teretstein wrote:Replace that with non-sentient.

OOC: No. A normal housecat is sentient. A human is sentient and sapient. The proposal only intends to exclude sapient animals (like humans).


What would you say then to the people who are running countries where housecats are the dominant species?

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Potted Plants United
Diplomat
 
Posts: 937
Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am

Teretstein wrote:What would you say then to the people who are running countries where housecats are the dominant species?

OOC: It was an example using RL animals. In NS, if the dominant species is sapient, then it's sapient. That's why the proposal uses sapient.
This nation is a plant-based hivemind.
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Teretstein
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 47
Founded: Sep 25, 2010
Anarchy

Postby Teretstein » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:12 am

Potted Plants United wrote:
Teretstein wrote:What would you say then to the people who are running countries where housecats are the dominant species?

OOC: It was an example using RL animals. In NS, if the dominant species is sapient, then it's sapient. That's why the proposal uses sapient.


But what if the dominant species isn't sapient? The official dictionary definition of sapient is "appearing to be wise".

I don't have a problem with this proposal in theory, but using the word sapient opens up a lot of grey areas there.

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Potted Plants United
Diplomat
 
Posts: 937
Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:17 am

Teretstein wrote:But what if the dominant species isn't sapient? The official dictionary definition of sapient is "appearing to be wise".

OOC: Then it's not dominant species in the sense that humans are dominant species of RL Earth (the most numerous vertebrate is a small deepwater fish, and most numerous invertebrate is some kind of nematode worm). And then it doesn't matter at all.

I don't have a problem with this proposal in theory, but using the word sapient opens up a lot of grey areas there.

You're new here. Outside of here "sentient" and "sapient" may be used interchangeably, but "sapient" has a much more specific meaning, and has been used in relevant existing resolutions, so whether you like it or not, it's the correct word to use here.
Last edited by Potted Plants United on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
This nation is a plant-based hivemind.
My main nation is Araraukar.
Separatist Peoples wrote:"NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE!"
- Mr. Bell, when introduced to PPU's newest moving plant

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Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:34 pm

Just cut the science fiction technobabble out and use the standard words 'person', 'people', 'individuals', etc.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:45 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Just cut the science fiction technobabble out and use the standard words 'person', 'people', 'individuals', etc.

OOC: Just because it's not your particular area of expertize, does not make it science fiction. And "sapient" has already been used in numerous resolutions, so it's not like there wasn't solid precedent for using it.

But using person and people wouldn't work with the use of "non-sapient", as "non-person" evokes completely unrelated associations of erasure of personhood and whatnot ("non-people" is even worse, because "a people" is a whole different thing than "a person"), and would lead into all kinds of trouble that is avoided with "non-sapient". And individual animals are individuals, so that wouldn't work either.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
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Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Posts: 9144
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:29 pm

We already have non-science fiction words for all of these things. There is no reason to believe that if we fly a faster than light spacecraft in 2063 and point-eared totally-not-elves land to say hello, they would not themselves be considered people. If you want to manufacture misinterpretations of how existing descriptors work, that's fine. You don't need to try to breathe them over everyone.

Author: 1 SC and 31 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Delegate for Europe
Out-of-character unless marked otherwise
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

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Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:33 pm

OOC: I was not aware that "sapient" was considered "science fiction technobabble"? As far as I'm aware, sapience (and derived terms) has been very common used in the GA pretty much interchangeably with personhood. I don't think there's much ambiguity there.

Araraukar wrote:OOC: More than half asleep, but why's clause 8 saying they can't kill the animals, referring to clause 9, which says they can kill the animals? So which is it?


It's supposed to have the end result that they can't kill the animals, except in the specific circumstances outlined in clause 9. I mean, I thought the language was fairly clear but I can probably make the meaning more explicit.

Also, clause 7, why? The proposal is supposed to spell out the minimum requirements. The committee's not needed to handhold scientists/professionals who most likely know better than some random committee how to take care of their research animals.


I guess I put it in to completely eliminate any avenue for negligence on member nations' part, but I suppose good-faith compliance is probably sufficient. I'll scrap that clause.

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Maowi
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Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:38 pm

OOC: Bump.

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Europeia

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Ambassador to the IDU

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Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:07 pm

OOC: Bump again. If there are no major problems I'll look towards submitting in a couple of weeks.

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

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Desmosthenes and Burke
Envoy
 
Posts: 283
Founded: Oct 07, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:08 pm

Just a question, ambassador. Clause 2(a) as currently written would seem the prohibit the development of the following possible items (a non-exhaustive list):
  • Quicker/More humane ways of conducting slaughterhouse operations
  • Better methods of killing/cooking crustaceans*
  • Mouse/Rat Traps and poisons
  • Insecticides* / insect traps*
  • drugs for the humane euthenization of sick, injured, or surplus animals

Is that your intent?

OOC: Items marked with a * are subject to controversy IRL.
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Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:20 am

"Well, I don't think 2.a. is the problematic clause for what you describe, but 2.b. in conjunction with the former is. I concur with you, seeking to develop more humane methods of pest control and other necessary killing of animals should not be prohibited. I have changed 2.b. in a manner that should hopefully acount for that."

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

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Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5585
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:50 am

“The use of the word ‘objective’ in clause 2b disagrees with me. The pleasure derived from seeing one’s home free of flies can’t really be objectively measured, nor can the taste improvements from eating lobster rather than a lobster substitute. Just having ‘material benefit’ should work just as well.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Desmosthenes and Burke
Envoy
 
Posts: 283
Founded: Oct 07, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:35 am

Maowi wrote:"Well, I don't think 2.a. is the problematic clause for what you describe, but 2.b. in conjunction with the former is. I concur with you, seeking to develop more humane methods of pest control and other necessary killing of animals should not be prohibited. I have changed 2.b. in a manner that should hopefully acount for that."


Our apologies ambassador. The typographic error in our translation has been corrected, and the gnome responsible has been sacked. We will have to think on the new wording, as we admit, we find it difficult to parse, though we do think the Kenmorian delegation may have a point. Perhaps it could read "material benefit to the user or a reduction in suffering for an animal killed for a lawful purpose" or something similar
香港加油!林郑月娥一定要去!自由香港万岁!五毛回家!| Carrie Lam must go! Long Live Free Hong Kong | La France pour les Français et Ceux Qu'en Veut Devenir Un.

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Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:22 am

Kenmoria wrote:“The use of the word ‘objective’ in clause 2b disagrees with me. The pleasure derived from seeing one’s home free of flies can’t really be objectively measured, nor can the taste improvements from eating lobster rather than a lobster substitute. Just having ‘material benefit’ should work just as well.”


"Fair enough, ambassador: I have removed the word 'objective' from the clause. Thanks for pointing it out."

Desmosthenes and Burke wrote:Our apologies ambassador. The typographic error in our translation has been corrected, and the gnome responsible has been sacked. We will have to think on the new wording, as we admit, we find it difficult to parse, though we do think the Kenmorian delegation may have a point. Perhaps it could read "material benefit to the user or a reduction in suffering for an animal killed for a lawful purpose" or something similar


Feargal wipes his glasses guiltily and makes a mental note not to point out typographical errors from the Burkean delegation in the future. "Ah, yes, I have put in some wording along the lines of what you suggest. I hope that is a little clearer."

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

User avatar
Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:29 am

OOC: Bump. Unless a big problem comes up, I'll submit in exactly two weeks.

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

User avatar
Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:52 am

OOC: Apologies for the triple post, but I will submit this in one week if no major flaws are pointed out in that time, so I'm bumping this for more feedback.

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

User avatar
Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5585
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:18 pm

Maowi wrote:OOC: Apologies for the triple post, but I will submit this in one week if no major flaws are pointed out in that time, so I'm bumping this for more feedback.

(OOC: This looks good to go.)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

User avatar
Maowi
Diplomat
 
Posts: 792
Founded: Jan 07, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:32 pm

OOC: Made some very minor changes, and intend to submit this in around 24 hours. Speak now or forever hold your peace :P

South Pacific

WA Minister
Customs Minister
Ambassador to Thaecia

--

Europeia

First Minister
Ambassador to the IDU

Former positions:
Minister of Communications
Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Recruitment
Deputy Minister of Communications
Deputy Councillor of World Assembly Affairs

Awards received:
Order of Dedication
Order of Mercury
Order of the Sapphire Star x3
Golden Pen x2
Silver Pen

--

Author of GAR #457 and GAR #480
Co-author of GAR #479

Factbooks

User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14435
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:27 pm

Maowi wrote:OOC: Made some very minor changes, and intend to submit this in around 24 hours. Speak now or forever hold your peace :P

OOC: *coughs up some phlegm* Does it intentionally only apply to institutions and not all kinds of facilities and organizations?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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