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[DRAFT] REPEAL Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

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Chrysostomos
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[DRAFT] REPEAL Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

Postby Chrysostomos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:33 am

Morning all, missed church, so this.
Sorry if it's found wanting, I've been round for a while, but never tried my hand at this, so please be patient with me.
For the sake of constructive criticism (if my argument wasn't clear) I added a small [tldr] to provide additional context that will be removed if I finalize a draft that may get quorum.

Please no bully, I get its a hot topic, but it's something I can actually work with. The reason it's such a hot topic is because there is no "settled science" around the topic, and that is why it will probably continue to be debated in these "halls".
Cheers and God Bless.

EDITED:
General Assembly Resolution

REPEAL Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy (GA#467)

WE, the collected Nations of this Assembly; [Meant to be read as individual Acknowledgements]

ACKNOWLEDGE the existence of CONFIRMATION BIAS and RHETORIC in (GA#467)
ACKNOWLEDGE that THE RESULTING EFFECT of (GA#467) is NECESSARILY the sterilization children and adolescents, whether voluntary or not
ACKNOWLEDGE that sterilization of a person undergoing Hormone Replacement Therapy (or any known colloquialism) is both irreversible and inevitable
ACKNOWLEDGES that clauses 2, 3, 5 and 6 of (GA#467) all allow and AFFIRM that an INDIVIDUAL is medically CAPABLE to self-Diagnose or self-Treat a condition
ACKNOWLEDGE that the REQUIREMENTS of (GA#467) would FORCE a Government to, in EFFECT, sterilize a segment-however large or small-of their population


HEREBY CLARIFIES the following Operable Medical Terms:
1. Disease: "an abnormal or adverse condition sometimes resulting in the in debilitation of normal function, in part or in whole"
2. Mental-Illness: "A mental-or- psychiatric disorder, is a behavioral or mental pattern that can cause significant impairment of personal function"
3. Confusion: "The quality or state of being unclear. "Acute Mental Confusion" (or AMC) is often used interchangeably with delirium
in publications to describe such pathology"
4. Dysphoria: "A state of generalized unhappiness, dissatisfaction, disconnect or frustration, of which can often be symptom of several mental health conditions."
5. Delusion: "Idiosyncratic belief that is firmly adhered to despite being contradicted by what is accepted as empirical reality;
typically a symptom of mental disorder"

HEREBY SUBMITS and AFFIRMS the following as FACT:

1. Transgender and Gender non-binary people do not possess the medically diagnosable conditions that affirm their purported condition or perception of their biological state-i.e. your body IS as it is biologically constructed,
whether or not you perceive it as such [tldr your body is binary]

1a. Recognizing that "Intersex" people possess a medically diagnosable condition wholly separate and distinct from "Transgender" and "Non-binary" [tldr unless intersex at birth]

2. That ALL experiences resulting from the human condition are reduced back to ones mental perception-i.e. your "Mind" or "Nous"-and that if a persons perception does not correspond with an objective and empirical reality,
that may medically constitute a significant "Alienation" from observable reality, and that such disconnects are often the indication of "Mental-Illness" as CLARIFIED [tldr it is all of the things prior legislation said its not]

2a. That "Alienation" from reality, "Mental Illness", "Depression" all resulting from such a perception does in FACT constitute "Dis-ease" of Mind and/or Body
[tldr Prior legislation contests its not a mental illness and then proclaims it a matter of mental perception and objective disconnect between perception and reality, describing what is in EFFECT a mental illness; TLDR TO THE TLDR Its a delineation between perception (subjective) and objective, i.e. mental disorder]

3. Medically UNQUALIFIED individuals are not "in best position to understand and discern their own medical conditions" as stated in (GA#467) and are therefore UNFIT to discern, diagnose or treat their own Disease, Illness, Confusion, Dysphoria or Delusion.
[tldr back pain can be a collapsed lung. No unqualified person is in the best position to discern their own medical conditions. That is how people misdiagnose and mistreat problems, which leads to quite unnecessary death]

3a. Individuals whose perception is significantly altered or are otherwise influenced by untreated Disease, Illness, Confusion, Dysphoria or Delusion may not be adequately able to discern the lasting repercussions of their
decisions or self-imposed "treatments"
[tldr stress is a significant impairment, it will probably impair your decision making capabilities such that you do not make rational decisions in the long run, especially if diagnosing and treating yourself]

4. Dysphoria of any kind is a Medically treatable mental-illness/psychiatric disorder as CLARIFIED [tldr it literally is by every definition]
4a. Treatment of any kind, if any is appropriate, should be left to qualified, licensed medical practitioners
[tldr not the individual, not "transitioning clinics", regular practitioners]

5. IT IS NOT the Duty of the GA or WA to impose or issue Taxes, Debts, or REQUIRE subsidization of services (outside of punitive measures or without providing funding) under (GA#467) [tldr no funding allocated by GA for subsidization in small or underdeveloped nations]
5a. IT IS NOT the Duty of the GA oversee Compliant Medical Facilities (CMF) in Member Nations under (GA #467) [tldr no requirement]
5b. Payment for ANY treatment not covered by private insurance or SSI (if applicable) should be covered "Out of Pocket"


REPEALS GA #467
Last edited by Chrysostomos on Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:35 am

Already noted that 5b. is a requirement and it will be removed.
Very sorry this escaped me
Last edited by Chrysostomos on Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:38 pm

OOC: Welcome to the World Assembly. Please note that everything following your Roman numeral clauses is an attempt to write positive law, i.e. create new legislation in a repeal [edit: or possibly even amend existing law]. This is not allowed - repeals can only repeal their target resolution.

Further, Clause V probably needs rewording to make clear that you're accusing the target resolution of self-contradiction, rather than being contradicted by another resolution (which would constitute Metagaming and is also not allowed).

This will need further reworking before it is ready to submit (for example, Clause III might well be an Honest Mistake, but I'm not completely positive at first glance).
Last edited by Sierra Lyricalia on Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nouveau Quebecois
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Postby Nouveau Quebecois » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:42 pm

Hot topic, quite. Well written proposal.

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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:48 pm

(OOC: As SL said, welcome to the General Assembly. Currently, a rather major issue is that at least four of your definitions are taken directly off the internet, which constitutes plagiarism. Those need to be replaced with definitions in your own words, or removed entirely.)
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:42 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:OOC: Welcome to the World Assembly. Please note that everything following your Roman numeral clauses is an attempt to write positive law, i.e. create new legislation in a repeal [edit: or possibly even amend existing law]. This is not allowed - repeals can only repeal their target resolution.

Further, Clause V probably needs rewording to make clear that you're accusing the target resolution of self-contradiction, rather than being contradicted by another resolution (which would constitute Metagaming and is also not allowed).

This will need further reworking before it is ready to submit (for example, Clause III might well be an Honest Mistake, but I'm not completely positive at first glance).


Than you! So in a repeal nothing can cite any other legislation in why it may or may not be justified in it's repeal? It has to be self contradictory only?

Addition: My line of thinking was thus: "X is banned by GA. Y is allowed. In doing Y, X may occur, thus putting me in violation of X."
So to point out that loophole, I cited the other legislation
Last edited by Chrysostomos on Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:29 pm

Repeals can only contain one piece of new legislation: the repeal of the targeted proposal. It cannot repeal multiple proposals or enact engorging substantially otherwise.

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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:44 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Repeals can only contain one piece of new legislation: the repeal of the targeted proposal. It cannot repeal multiple proposals or enact engorging substantially otherwise.

Copy that, I think my revisions took into consideration all of the feedback. I appreciate everyone who has posted and welcomed me.

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Postby Marxist Germany » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:44 pm

OOC: You are attacking the wrong target, if you are bothered by the legalisation of transitioning I suggest repealing GA#91 Convention on Gender or GA#457 Defending the rights of sexual and gender minorities.
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: You are attacking the wrong target, if you are bothered by the legalisation of transitioning I suggest repealing GA#91 Convention on Gender or GA#457 Defending the rights of sexual and gender minorities.


OOC: Perhaps, but there was less an agenda behind this and more of how easy a target this Motion was. It was all rhetoric, 2 do's and 2 don'ts. It was designed to placate people, and require small developing nations (probably conservative, fiscally or socially) to subsidize this new inroad in medicine. It is a good inroad into the GA, and perhaps down those roads later. I do appreciate knowing they exist.

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The Galactic Supremacy
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Postby The Galactic Supremacy » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:26 am

All for this mate.
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East Meranopirus
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Postby East Meranopirus » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:46 am

Chrysostomos wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: You are attacking the wrong target, if you are bothered by the legalisation of transitioning I suggest repealing GA#91 Convention on Gender or GA#457 Defending the rights of sexual and gender minorities.


OOC: Perhaps, but there was less an agenda behind this and more of how easy a target this Motion was. It was all rhetoric, 2 do's and 2 don'ts. It was designed to placate people, and require small developing nations (probably conservative, fiscally or socially) to subsidize this new inroad in medicine. It is a good inroad into the GA, and perhaps down those roads later. I do appreciate knowing they exist.

Haha. Haha. Haha.

Controversial topics are never "good inroads" to the GA. Repeals also aren't. If you want to find good inroads to the GA try checking this:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=463504

Also, based on what you've said, it really sounds like badge-hunting, which is frowned upon.
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:19 am

East Meranopirus wrote:
Chrysostomos wrote:
OOC: Perhaps, but there was less an agenda behind this and more of how easy a target this Motion was. It was all rhetoric, 2 do's and 2 don'ts. It was designed to placate people, and require small developing nations (probably conservative, fiscally or socially) to subsidize this new inroad in medicine. It is a good inroad into the GA, and perhaps down those roads later. I do appreciate knowing they exist.

Haha. Haha. Haha.

Controversial topics are never "good inroads" to the GA. Repeals also aren't. If you want to find good inroads to the GA try checking this:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=463504

Also, based on what you've said, it really sounds like badge-hunting, which is frowned upon.


Not sure what badge hunting is, I gave up Pokémon 17 yrs ago. Just trying to do what I think is legalistically right. Acribe whatever motives you want to meBut it was just badly written rhetoric to placate people not an actual piece of legislation that really did anything if it’s going to exist that should exist for the right reasons and not such a badly written form
Last edited by Chrysostomos on Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:29 am

Chrysostomos wrote:Not sure what badge hunting is

OOC: Gameside badges. You get one when you pass a WA resolution. People want those and don't care about the quality of their writing to get one. It's disliked by people who take the GA a bit more seriously.

Just trying to do what I think is legalistically right.

By telling people like me that we're just mentally ill and don't exist? Yeah, you're going to need a lot better justifications than just "because they don't think like me, they must be wrong".

But it was just badly written rhetoric to placate people not an actual piece of legislation that really did anything if it’s going to exist that should exist for the right reasons and not such a badly written form

...the irony is that this sentence is so badly written that I can't actually properly make out what you're trying to say here.
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:04 pm

Just trying to do what I think is legalistically right.

By telling people like me that we're just mentally ill and don't exist? Yeah, you're going to need a lot better justifications than just "because they don't think like me, they must be wrong".


Literally the argument used against the side I represent in this instance.
Of course people exist, but the legislation was self contradictory, period. It should be redrafted if any nation is expected to comply with it

But it was just badly written rhetoric to placate people not an actual piece of legislation that really did anything if it’s going to exist that should exist for the right reasons and not such a badly written form

...the irony is that this sentence is so badly written that I can't actually properly make out what you're trying to say here.


Yeah, talk-to-text does that. I'm boomer, sue me. XD
Last edited by Chrysostomos on Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:47 pm

Chrysostomos wrote:Literally the argument used against the side I represent in this instance.

OOC: Which is what side exactly?

the legislation was self contradictory, period.

Which bits of it contradicted which bits?

Yeah, talk-to-text does that. I'm boomer, sue me. XD

I don't know what a boomer is (English isn't my first language, nor are we likely to be from the same culture to begin with, so unless you are literally one of a few bird species with booming night-time calls, I'm lacking the cultural reference you're talking about), but if you're going to make yourself properly understood here, not to mention write proper proposal text, I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than that. Fire the speech-to-text program for substandard performance and use fingers to type? :lol:
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Morover
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Postby Morover » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:14 pm

OOC: Been absurdly busy as of late, but once I get an opportunity I’ll respond to this. I should mention, without an appropriate replacement, I will support no repeal (and am fairly certain that nobody else worthwhile will either).

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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:08 pm

Morover wrote:OOC: Been absurdly busy as of late, but once I get an opportunity I’ll respond to this. I should mention, without an appropriate replacement, I will support no repeal (and am fairly certain that nobody else worthwhile will either).


That should be disallowed, you can’t propose new or replacement legislation in a repeal. Nothing else can get quorum until this is repealed.

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The New Nordic Union
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Postby The New Nordic Union » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:43 pm

Chrysostomos wrote:
Morover wrote:OOC: Been absurdly busy as of late, but once I get an opportunity I’ll respond to this. I should mention, without an appropriate replacement, I will support no repeal (and am fairly certain that nobody else worthwhile will either).


That should be disallowed, you can’t propose new or replacement legislation in a repeal. Nothing else can get quorum until this is repealed.


OOC: But one can draft a replacement.
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:32 pm

The New Nordic Union wrote:
Chrysostomos wrote:
That should be disallowed, you can’t propose new or replacement legislation in a repeal. Nothing else can get quorum until this is repealed.


OOC: But one can draft a replacement.


[always forget]OOC:That would require submitting them at the same time and that everyone KNOW, for this legislation to be replaced it must be repealed first, that is the first step I'm taking. Then literally anyone that has commented can work with me to construct new legislation if that's what would be best.

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The Sheika
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Postby The Sheika » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:36 pm

Chrysostomos wrote:
The New Nordic Union wrote:
OOC: But one can draft a replacement.


[always forget]OOC:That would require submitting them at the same time and that everyone KNOW, for this legislation to be replaced it must be repealed first, that is the first step I'm taking. Then literally anyone that has commented can work with me to construct new legislation if that's what would be best.

OOC: They don't need to be submitted at the same time, but to see a replacement presented might make it a bit easier for you to convince others that what is already in place needs replaced. Draft a replacement here in the forum, the worst that could happen is you have to make revisions.
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Chrysostomos
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Postby Chrysostomos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:22 pm

The Sheika wrote:
Chrysostomos wrote:
[always forget]OOC:That would require submitting them at the same time and that everyone KNOW, for this legislation to be replaced it must be repealed first, that is the first step I'm taking. Then literally anyone that has commented can work with me to construct new legislation if that's what would be best.

OOC: They don't need to be submitted at the same time, but to see a replacement presented might make it a bit easier for you to convince others that what is already in place needs replaced. Draft a replacement here in the forum, the worst that could happen is you have to make revisions.


I appreciate the feedback, I had no idea that I could do that.

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Servilis
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Postby Servilis » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:02 am

Stuff like this can't really be approved, can it?
Well if all hope fails and stuff like this gets approved, I'm hoping those at the World Assembly can hopefully vote against this.
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BlackLight Covenant
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Postby BlackLight Covenant » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:06 am

Servilis wrote:Stuff like this can't really be approved, can it?
Well if all hope fails and stuff like this gets approved, I'm hoping those at the World Assembly can hopefully vote against this.


OOC: Oh, it definitely can be approved, provided that it complies with General Assembly rules regarding proposals. Without a proper replacement that tries to achieve goals similar to those of the original resolution, however, there's little chance of a sufficient number of delegates giving their approval to have this even reach quorum.

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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:13 am

I was interested in seeing your response to Ara's post, and am rather disappointed you elected to skip over it, since it seems highly necessary to expand on the arguments that you're trying to make to get something like this done.

Things that haven't been said in this thread yet:
Although there are a variety of players within NS, for the most part I'd like to think that we're all pretty mindful to consider the rights and struggles of the disenfranchised- politically, economically, and otherwise. I'm sure Morover could count the telegrams, but I had to have seen fifty attempts to get a repeal of 467 passed. A lot of them with crude and inflammatory rhetoric for the sake of being crude and inflammatory. A much smaller portion, actual legal text with reasonable argument strategies. The best of the lot, as I recall, being legal but couldn't get many more approvals than the 25 or so delegates that are predictable to show up whenever the opportunity to disenfranchise lgbt people arises. So that's not a great look.

The idea of "repeal and replace," or having two drafts at once submitted when they become legal to do so, is a technique that people use to target flawed legislation and turn it into less flawed legislation. The concepts of the target resolution, in that case, being out of effect for only a few days. That does not seem to be what you're aiming for here, because your own summary leaves me with the sentiment that you believe:

1. Intersex is a non-binary condition, but it's either not possible or not relevant for intersex people to be trans.
2. It's much more likely that someone is stressed or confused than actually trans.
3. Much like cold medication, the concept of informed consent is ludicrous, and
4. It's deeply unsettling that 467 does not classify trans people as having mental disorders.

I'm aware that this argument angle is something that could win over a room of fellow "boomers" but I'm highly sceptical that it has the ability to gain any traction here outside of some of the more hard-right regions. Mostly it indicates that you don't have a lot of familiarity with the subject or anyone connected to the subject, which stands to reason because if you did, you'd literally be aiming to disenfranchise them anyway. There's a thousand others out there, but as far as I have the authority to say, I'm a delegate of a region with 60% lgbt people. There's basically no world in which I would sign onto this, and I can't see how taking away someone else's ability to live with dignity in the world would be a good "gateway into the GA" or how you arrived at that conclusion.

If you're interested in finding a topic that has less yikes sentiment attached to it immediately, there's a stickied thread in this board for suggestions on GA proposals that have yet to be made. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=463504

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