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[DRAFT] Commercial Spaceflight Safety

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Kaschovia
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[DRAFT] Commercial Spaceflight Safety

Postby Kaschovia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:46 am

If you feel more needs adding to this draft, please let me know. I've put together as complete a draft as I could covering commercial spaceflights, without going overboard with detail, but any additions or suggestions are completely welcome.
Commercial Spaceflight Safety
Category: Regulation | AoE: Transport | Proposed by: Kaschovia


The World Assembly,

Aware of the ever-growing spaceflight industry in many WA member nations,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating spaceflights,

Alarmed at the lack of extensive international regulation, given the risk to life of both passengers and crew in nascent commercial spaceflight industry, and

Hoping to make spaceflight safer for everyone by introducing common safety measures,

Hereby,

1. Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by any person or organisation based in a member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of said nation's borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers;

2. Confirms the right of member states to prohibit or regulate commercial space activity for profit within their borders;

3. Mandates that all member nations in which there is commercial spaceflight activity:
  1. determine the minimum safety requirements for licensed operation of commercial flights to or from space, including momentary suborbital trips,
  2. establish a commercial spaceflight license to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff tasked with operating and supervising the spacecraft and related equipment are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to conduct safe commercial spaceflight activities, and
    4. verify that the applicant has the means to enable communications with their spacecraft in case of an emergency,
  3. develop an application process for the license, and issue the commercial spaceflight license to successful licensees,
  4. keep a safe record of all license holders, and ensure each license holder keeps their information on record up to date thereafter, and
  5. liaise with neighbouring nations on matters such as commercial spaceflight cooperation;
4. Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a commercial spaceflight license issued by the state they operate in;

5. Mandates member states to maintain a database of commercial spaceflights that are launched within their borders for bookkeeping and historical purposes; and,

6. Urges member states to help the public become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic or confusion, misidentification of flying objects by their military, or fear-driven action against licensed space activity.

First Draft
Regulations on Commercial Spaceflight
Category: Advancement of Industry | Proposed by: Kaschovia


Aware of the ever-growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight,

Alarmed at the lack of regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

Without the intent to limit the promising growth of reusable spaceflight operations and resources in the advancement of safe, sustainable ventures into space,

The World Assembly hereby,

Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by a person or organisation in any member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of national borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers,

Establishes the Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight,
  2. develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. and verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures,
  3. issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a record of all successful applicants,
  4. establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety,
  5. research safer and more efficient ways of conducting spaceflights, the information from which is to be publicly shared with and used by whomever may be interested in conducting spaceflight,
  6. and liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,

Encourages member states maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and launched within their borders, and share said register with the CSSM in conjunction with the internal committee register,

Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.

Second Draft
Commercial Spaceflight Safety Act
Category: Advancement of Industry | Proposed by: Kaschovia


Aware of the ever-growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight,

Alarmed at the lack of regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

Without the intent to limit the promising growth of reusable spaceflight operations and resources in the advancement of safe, sustainable ventures into space,

The World Assembly hereby,

Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by a person or organisation in any member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of national borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers,

Establishes the Commercial Spaceflight Safety Protocol (CSSP), which mandates that all member nations:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight from within their borders to space,
  2. develop an application process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. and verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures,
  3. issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a safe record of all successful applicants,
  4. establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety,
  5. and liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by their government in accordance with the CSSP,

Encourages member states maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and launched within their borders,

Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.

Third Draft
Commercial Spaceflight Safety Act
Category: Regulation | AoE: Safety | Proposed by: Kaschovia


Aware of the ever-growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight,

Alarmed at the lack of regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

Without the intent to limit the promising growth of reusable spaceflight operations and resources in the advancement of safe, sustainable ventures into space,

The World Assembly hereby,

Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by a person or organisation in any member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of national borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers,

Mandates that all member nations:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight from within their borders to space,
  2. develop an application process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. and verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures,
  3. issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a safe record of all successful applicants,
  4. establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety,
  5. and liaise with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by their government in accordance with the mandates of this resolution,

Encourages member states to maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and launched within their borders for better bookkeeping and historical purposes,

Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.


Fourth Draft
Commercial Spaceflight Safety
Category: Regulation | AoE: Safety | Proposed by: Kaschovia


The World Assembly,

Aware of the ever-growing spaceflight industries in many WA member states,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of spaceflight,

Alarmed at the lack of extensive international regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

Hoping to make spaceflight safer for everyone, while not unnecessarily curbing the existing commercial enterprises,

Hereby,

1. Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by any persons or organisation in any member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of national borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers,

2. Mandates that all member nations with ongoing commercial spaceflight activities:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight from within their borders to space,
  2. develop an application process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to conduct safe spaceflight operations,
    4. and verify that the applicant has the means to maintain communications with their spaceflight operations in case of emergencies,
  3. issue the Commercial Spaceflight License, keep a safe record of all successful license holders, and ensure the license holder maintains their own records thereafter,
  4. and liaise with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
3. Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the state they operate in corresponding with the mandates of this resolution,

4. Mandates member states to maintain a database of commercial spaceflights that are state-sanctioned and launched within their borders for better bookkeeping and historical purposes,

5. Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

6. Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, help the public become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic or confusion, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.


Fifth Draft

Commercial Spaceflight Safety
Category: Regulation | AoE: Transport | Proposed by: Kaschovia


The World Assembly,

Aware of the ever-growing spaceflight industry in many WA member nations,

Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating spaceflights,

Alarmed at the lack of extensive international regulation, given the risk to life of both passengers and crew in nascent commercial spaceflight industry,

Hoping to make spaceflight safer for everyone by introducing common safety measures,

Hereby,

1. Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by any persons or organisation in any member nation to conduct international space travel for profit outside of national borders and territories, which may or may not involve passengers,

2. Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

3. Mandates that all member nations with ongoing commercial spaceflight activities:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight from within their borders to space,
  2. establish a commercial spaceflight license to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe launch locations from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights,
    2. verify that all staff tasked with operating and supervising the spacecraft and related equipment are adequately certified and fit to do so,
    3. verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to conduct safe commercial spaceflight activities,
    4. and verify that the applicant has the means to enable communications with their spacecraft in case of an emergency,
  3. develop an application process for the license, and issue the commercial spaceflight license to successful licensees,
  4. keep a safe record of all license holders, and ensure each license holder keeps their information on record up to date thereafter,
  5. and liaise with neighbouring nations on matters such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
4. Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a commercial spaceflight license issued by the state they operate in,

5. Mandates member states to maintain a database of commercial spaceflights that are launched within their borders for bookkeeping and historical purposes,

6. Urges member states to help the public become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic or confusion, misidentification of flying objects by their military, or fear-driven action against licensed space activity.
Last edited by Kaschovia on Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:48 am, edited 28 times in total.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:27 am

Kaschovia wrote:Requires all commercial spaceflight activity be for peaceful purposes only,

Establishes the World Assembly Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight.
  2. Develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, issue that license to and keep a record of all successful applicants.
  3. Establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety.
  4. Research safer and more efficient ways of conducting spaceflights, the information from which is to be publicly shared with and used by member states.
  5. Liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commcercial spaceflight cooperation.
Prohibits any person or organization from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,

You need to specify that this only applies to commercial spaceflight that actually falls under any member nation's jurisdiction.

Grants the total right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

Member nations already have this right, in the absence of any earlier resolution that would remove it. "Confirms" would be a better verb to use here.

Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware and more accustomed to the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.

There seems to be a surplus "to".
And shouldn't they try to avoid misidentification of lying objects by their own militaries, as well?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaschovia
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Postby Kaschovia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:56 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Kaschovia wrote:Requires all commercial spaceflight activity be for peaceful purposes only,

Establishes the World Assembly Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight.
  2. Develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, issue that license to and keep a record of all successful applicants.
  3. Establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety.
  4. Research safer and more efficient ways of conducting spaceflights, the information from which is to be publicly shared with and used by member states.
  5. Liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commcercial spaceflight cooperation.
Prohibits any person or organization from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,

You need to specify that this only applies to commercial spaceflight that actually falls under any member nation's jurisdiction.

Grants the total right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

Member nations already have this right, in the absence of any earlier resolution that would remove it. "Confirms" would be a better verb to use here.

Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware and more accustomed to the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.

There seems to be a surplus "to".
And shouldn't they try to avoid misidentification of lying objects by their own militaries, as well?

"I've reworded things slightly better according to your advice. I've also changed the 'Requires' clause to specify that it is commercial spaceflight activity under any member nation's jurisdiction that this applies to, although I'm not quite sure I understand what exactly you think needs changing in regards to your comment. Could you clarify?"

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Postby Araraukar » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:17 pm

Kaschovia wrote:Category: Regulation and Advancement of Industry

OOC: Those are two separate categories. Pick one. Evaluating the language of the proposal is difficult without knowing what category it's been written for.
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Kaschovia
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Postby Kaschovia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:38 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Kaschovia wrote:Category: Regulation and Advancement of Industry

OOC: Those are two separate categories. Pick one. Evaluating the language of the proposal is difficult without knowing what category it's been written for.

OOC: I would say that it aims to advance the industry more than regulate, so I'll change it to just advancement. If you see more of a reason for it be regulation, let me know why and I'll change it.

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Postby Qhevak » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:14 am

Requires all commercial spaceflight activity under any member nation's jurisdiction be for peaceful purposes only,

"Representative, this would effectively ban nations with solely commercial space launch industries from deploying military satellites, which would both cripple their reconnaissance, navigation and communication capabilities and prevent them from using GPS guided weapons until they could develop government owned launch vehicles at great expense. That's just the impact on planetbound nations - many spacefaring ones, such as us, operate interstellar mercenary and arms corporations, which would be crippled by such regulation."
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Kaschovia
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Postby Kaschovia » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:58 am

Qhevak wrote:
Requires all commercial spaceflight activity under any member nation's jurisdiction be for peaceful purposes only,

"Representative, this would effectively ban nations with solely commercial space launch industries from deploying military satellites, which would both cripple their reconnaissance, navigation and communication capabilities and prevent them from using GPS guided weapons until they could develop government owned launch vehicles at great expense. That's just the impact on planetbound nations - many spacefaring ones, such as us, operate interstellar mercenary and arms corporations, which would be crippled by such regulation."

"Thanks for pointing this out. I'll remove the clause."

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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:05 am

“Your ‘prohibits’ clause should have something such as ‘in a member nation’ to make sure that you aren’t trying to legislate on non-members.”
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Kaschovia
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Postby Kaschovia » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:09 am

Kenmoria wrote:“Your ‘prohibits’ clause should have something such as ‘in a member nation’ to make sure that you aren’t trying to legislate on non-members.”

"Fixed."

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Postby Tinfect » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:34 pm

Kaschovia wrote:Aware of the ever growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states,


"Do keep your own Nation's industrial assumptions to yourself, please." Feren, the Civil Oversight representative of the Imperium of Tinfect, stepped up to the podium, pushing his way out of a crowd of passing gnomes. "Private transit has, indeed, decreased in the Imperium, as of late."

Kaschovia wrote:Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight tourism through reusable rockets,


"Tourism," he said with all the disdain of one looking upon a particularly offensive insect, "Certainly I hope you do not intend to promote such a thing, yes?"

Kaschovia wrote:Establishes the World Assembly Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall:
  1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight.


"Only the Imperium is qualified to do anything of the sort within our jurisdiction."

Kaschovia wrote:
  • Develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:


  • "Why, exactly. are Member-States presumed to be incapable of licensing?"

    Kaschovia wrote:
    1. Verify the existence of functional, safe spaceports and launch centres from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights.


    "The Imperium will not allow any foreign entity to 'verify' our facilities. Our borders are closed, for a reason, Ambassador. Member-States are more than capable of managing their own facilities, and if they so choose to allow a private entity to launch from a poorly-designed facility, that is their concern alone, and certainly no justification to demand that all Member-States open our facilities to international scrutiny."

    Kaschovia wrote:
  • Verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so.


  • "Again, are Member-States incapable of doing this? What need is there for an international body to interfere in this matter?"

    Kaschovia wrote:
  • Verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures.


  • "Certainly, you do not expect an administrator, or, executive, or what-have-you, to have the scientific background required for every facet of their operation? You understand, of course, that such people are, properly, excluded from design or launch elements, save perhaps for concerns of cost?"

    Kaschovia wrote:[*]Issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a record of all successful applicants.


    "The Imperium will not allow a foreign entity to keep any such lists of our Citizens."

    Kaschovia wrote:[*]Establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety.



    "The Imperium has its own standards for such; indeed, we have had them for centuries. We neither need, nor desire, the interference of a frankly, unqualified, international body for such matters."

    Kaschovia wrote:[*]Maintain communication with ongoing spaceflights to ensure any safety concerns are voiced and acted upon as soon as possible.


    "The Imperium will not allow any foreign entity to monitor our Citizen's transit."

    Kaschovia wrote:Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,


    "Again, why cannot Member-States do this?"

    Kaschovia wrote:Mandates that member states maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and conducted, to be shared with the CSSM in conjunction with the internal committee register,


    "Absolutely not, under any circumstances. The Imperium will not allow an unsecured foreign entity to hold any such information."

    Kaschovia wrote:Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,


    "And indeed we shall, if this Legislation comes to pass. It's a simple matter of absurd overreach, and a security risk besides."
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    Kaschovia
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    Postby Kaschovia » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:22 am

    Tinfect wrote:
    "Do keep your own Nation's industrial assumptions to yourself, please." Feren, the Civil Oversight representative of the Imperium of Tinfect, stepped up to the podium, pushing his way out of a crowd of passing gnomes. "Private transit has, indeed, decreased in the Imperium, as of late."

    "Since there's no metric for measuring the space advancement of a nation, I'll have to take your word for it, Ambassador. It may not please you to hear this, but this resolution is not Tinfectcentric."

    "Tourism," he said with all the disdain of one looking upon a particularly offensive insect, "Certainly I hope you do not intend to promote such a thing, yes?"

    "Space tourism."

    "Only the Imperium is qualified to do anything of the sort within our jurisdiction."

    "Not if this resolution passes! I'm sure Tinfect is capable of doing many things also done by the Assembly."

    "Why, exactly. are Member-States presumed to be incapable of licensing?"

    "You have the blinders of many millenia spacefaring restricting your ability to comprehend the existence of less-able nations, I suppose."

    "The Imperium will not allow any foreign entity to 'verify' our facilities. Our borders are closed, for a reason, Ambassador. Member-States are more than capable of managing their own facilities, and if they so choose to allow a private entity to launch from a poorly-designed facility, that is their concern alone, and certainly no justification to demand that all Member-States open our facilities to international scrutiny."


    "How does Tinfect ever cope, I wonder, with being subject to the thousands of previously passed mandates by this Assembly?"

    "Again, are Member-States incapable of doing this? What need is there for an international body to interfere in this matter?"

    "You seem to know more about the capabilities of foreign states than anyone else, so why would you ask me?"

    "Certainly, you do not expect an administrator, or, executive, or what-have-you, to have the scientific background required for every facet of their operation? You understand, of course, that such people are, properly, excluded from design or launch elements, save perhaps for concerns of cost?"

    "Well, no. There'd be qualified inspectors, Ambassador. "

    "The Imperium will not allow a foreign entity to keep any such lists of our Citizens."

    "Whatever your citizens do within your borders is up to you to monitor, but in space, an international zone, I think there is an obligation of the international body we're part of to monitor what happens in international areas of interest. Any data kept will be in accordance with current data laws. But you're free to disagree all you want."

    "The Imperium has its own standards for such; indeed, we have had them for centuries. We neither need, nor desire, the interference of a frankly, unqualified, international body for such matters."

    "Then you are more than welcome to vote against if this comes to vote. And also, are you genuinely insinuating that this Assembly does not contain member nations more advanced than yourself? I haven't been a contributor to this Assembly for very long, but I must ask, what makes Tinfect so capable of the qualification of an international body to do what it is mandated?"

    "The Imperium will not allow any foreign entity to monitor our Citizen's transit."

    "Well, the CSSM doesn't care about all of your citizen's private transit. It cares about the commercial transit that takes place in international space."

    "Again, why cannot Member-States do this?"

    "Do what? Prohibit other member nations from conducting commercial spaceflight?"

    "Absolutely not, under any circumstances. The Imperium will not allow an unsecured foreign entity to hold any such information."

    "Like I said before, any data kept will be under currently existing data protection laws, the same laws you and I are both subject to. I don't need to clarify that in the resolution because it's an already established regulation."

    "And indeed we shall, if this Legislation comes to pass. It's a simple matter of absurd overreach, and a security risk besides."

    "In your opinion. There are many nations who wish to promote commercial spaceflight, but do not yet have the technology or the knowledge to do to safely and sustainably, but are on the cusp of it, so, for one second, think about any nation other than your own that might exist, and consider their position on this issue before refuting every possible point you can."
    Last edited by Kaschovia on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Qhevak
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    Postby Qhevak » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:53 am

    Kaschovia wrote:"Whatever your citizens do within your borders is up to you to monitor, but in space, an international zone, I think there is an obligation of the international body we're part of to monitor what happens in international areas of interest. Any data kept will be in accordance with current data laws. But you're free to disagree all you want."

    "Representative, many nations, including Tinfect and ourselves, include large regions of space within our borders, and conduct large amounts of small-scale civilian space traffic within said borders on a scale that would make liasing unfeasible. As the nations for which this bill would be most relevant usually do not have borders extending past the Karman line, perhaps difficulties could be avoided by rephrasing commercial spaceflight for the purpose of this bill as:"
    any action taken by a person or organisation to conduct space travel outside of national borders for profit, which may or may not involve passengers,
    Last edited by Qhevak on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:29 am

    Qhevak wrote:
    Kaschovia wrote:"Whatever your citizens do within your borders is up to you to monitor, but in space, an international zone, I think there is an obligation of the international body we're part of to monitor what happens in international areas of interest. Any data kept will be in accordance with current data laws. But you're free to disagree all you want."

    "Representative, many nations, including Tinfect and ourselves, include large regions of space within our borders, and conduct large amounts of small-scale civilian space traffic within said borders on a scale that would make liasing unfeasible. As the nations for which this bill would be most relevant usually do not have borders extending past the Karman line, perhaps difficulties could be avoided by rephrasing commercial spaceflight for the purpose of this bill as:"
    any action taken by a person or organisation to conduct space travel outside of national borders for profit, which may or may not involve passengers,

    "This seems like a reasonable suggestion, Ambassador. I'll amend it."

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    Kenmoria
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    Postby Kenmoria » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:42 am

    “I’ve put some feedback in red pen on the draft.”
    Regulations on Commercial Spaceflight
    Category: Advancement of Industry | Proposed by: Kaschovia


    Aware of the ever growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states, There should be a hyphen between ‘ever’ and ‘growing’.

    Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight tourism through reusable rockets, Why are reusable rockets mentioned specifically in this? What separates this from other methods of space travel, which presumably should exist?

    Alarmed at the lack of regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

    Without limiting the promising growth of reusable spaceflight operations and resources in the advancement of safe, sustainable ventures into space, Factually, you are limiting this growth in some ways, even if only incidentally.

    The World Assembly HEREBY, Why is ‘HEREBY’ capitalised?

    Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by a person or organisation to conduct space travel for profit, which may or may not involve passengers,

    Establishes the World Assembly Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall: You don’t need to have ‘World Assembly’ here, as it isn’t used in the acronym.
    1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight. Seeing as this is part of a list, a full stop isn’t appropriate.
    2. Develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
      1. Verify the existence of functional, safe spaceports and launch centres from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights. Spaceports are valid ways of travel, however there may be easier ways of spaceflight, which don’t go from specialised places, but from any flat surface.
      2. Verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so.
      3. Verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures.
    3. Issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a record of all successful applicants.
    4. Establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety.
    5. Maintain communication with ongoing spaceflights to ensure any safety concerns are voiced and acted upon as soon as possible. Maintaining communications with all ongoing space flight in the multiverse will be almost impossible, as well as a massive security risk.
    6. Research safer and more efficient ways of conducting spaceflights, the information from which is to be publicly shared with and used by member states.
    7. Liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
    Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,

    Mandates that member states maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and conducted, to be shared with the CSSM in conjunction with the internal committee register, Once again, a security risk.

    Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

    Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.
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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:10 am

    Kenmoria wrote:“I’ve put some feedback in red pen on the draft.”
    Regulations on Commercial Spaceflight
    Category: Advancement of Industry | Proposed by: Kaschovia


    Aware of the ever growing commercial spaceflight industries in many WA member states, There should be a hyphen between ‘ever’ and ‘growing’.

    Also aware there are people and organisations that are technologically and financially capable of operating within the sector of commercial spaceflight tourism through reusable rockets, Why are reusable rockets mentioned specifically in this? What separates this from other methods of space travel, which presumably should exist?

    Alarmed at the lack of regulation, given the intricacy and risk to life of spaceflight, especially where untrained passenger clientele are involved, currently surrounding this area of commerce,

    Without limiting the promising growth of reusable spaceflight operations and resources in the advancement of safe, sustainable ventures into space, Factually, you are limiting this growth in some ways, even if only incidentally.

    The World Assembly HEREBY, Why is ‘HEREBY’ capitalised?

    Defines commercial spaceflight activity as any action taken by a person or organisation to conduct space travel for profit, which may or may not involve passengers,

    Establishes the World Assembly Commercial Spaceflight Safety Committee (CSSM), which shall: You don’t need to have ‘World Assembly’ here, as it isn’t used in the acronym.
    1. Determine the minimum safety requirements for the conduction of commercial spaceflight. Seeing as this is part of a list, a full stop isn’t appropriate.
    2. Develop an applications process for a Commercial Spaceflight License to conduct spaceflights, which shall:
      1. Verify the existence of functional, safe spaceports and launch centres from which the applicant will conduct their spaceflights. Spaceports are valid ways of travel, however there may be easier ways of spaceflight, which don’t go from specialised places, but from any flat surface.
      2. Verify that all staff at the time of licensing tasked with operating and supervising the spaceflight are adequately certified and fit to do so.
      3. Verify that the applicant has the financial and technical capabilities to sustain safe spaceflight ventures.
    3. Issue the Commercial Spaceflight License and keep a record of all successful applicants.
    4. Establish an action protocol for any and all emergencies that might occur during spaceflight, covering ground-to-space communications, emergency reentry and landing procedures, and passenger safety.
    5. Maintain communication with ongoing spaceflights to ensure any safety concerns are voiced and acted upon as soon as possible. Maintaining communications with all ongoing space flight in the multiverse will be almost impossible, as well as a massive security risk.
    6. Research safer and more efficient ways of conducting spaceflights, the information from which is to be publicly shared with and used by member states.
    7. Liase with the International Aero-Space Administration on matters of mutual interest such as commercial spaceflight cooperation.
    Prohibits any person or organization in any member nation from conducting commercial spaceflight activities without a Commercial Spaceflight License issued by the CSSM,

    Mandates that member states maintain a register of commercial spaceflights to be state-sanctioned and conducted, to be shared with the CSSM in conjunction with the internal committee register, Once again, a security risk.

    Confirms the right of member states to prohibit commercial space activity within their borders,

    Urges member states to, even if in opposition to the advancement of the space industry, become more aware of and familiar with the regular space activities of other nations, to avoid public panic, misidentification of flying objects by foreign militaries, or fear-driven action against sanctioned space activity.

    "Thank you. We will amend the draft accordingly."

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    Tinfect
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    Corrupt Dictatorship

    Postby Tinfect » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 pm

    Kaschovia wrote:"Since there's no metric for measuring the space advancement of a nation, I'll have to take your word for it, Ambassador. It may not please you to hear this, but this resolution is not Tinfectcentric."


    "No. Neither is it centered on your nation, Ambassador. Please refrain from making any undue assumptions in the text."

    Kaschovia wrote:"Space tourism."


    "Yes, and?"

    Kaschovia wrote:"Not if this resolution passes! I'm sure Tinfect is capable of doing many things also done by the Assembly."


    "Do not mistake the legal capacity of a foreign entity to do so for qualification. Imperial Civil Oversight has been setting such standards for centuries; and it has full access to all design and material specifications necessary to make any such determinations. An 'international' standard, tuned to the lowest-common-denominator, all but certainly, is nothing but an obstruction, and an invitation to disaster where the actual needs of something far exceed the standards imposed by the World Assembly."

    Kaschovia wrote:"You have the blinders of many millenia spacefaring restricting your ability to comprehend the existence of less-able nations, I suppose."


    "And why, exactly, is the unfortunate incompetence of certain lesser Member-States justification to supercede the authority of all Member-States? In other words, Ambassador, if certain member-states are unable to manage their affairs, why is that the concern of the Imperium? Or, for example, the Confederate Dominion? In other words; why is this a matter justifying International action in the first place? You cannot simply presume that it is wherein there is reasonable dispute of the matter."

    Kaschovia wrote:"How does Tinfect ever cope, I wonder, with being subject to the thousands of previously passed mandates by this Assembly?"


    "Quite well, I assure you. The interference of unnecessary and unwanted foreign personnel is, perhaps tautologically, unnecessary, and unwanted."

    Kaschovia wrote:"You seem to know more about the capabilities of foreign states than anyone else, so why would you ask me?"


    "Attempting to make 'clever quips' is a poor replacement for a genuine argument, Ambassador. Do answer the question, if you're able?"

    Kaschovia wrote:"Well, no. There'd be qualified inspectors, Ambassador. "


    "Do read your own proposal, Ambassador; unless you expect me to believe that the Inspectors are to enter an application on behalf of the entity they are inspecting?"

    Kaschovia wrote:"Whatever your citizens do within your borders is up to you to monitor, but in space, an international zone, I think there is an obligation of the international body we're part of to monitor what happens in international areas of interest. Any data kept will be in accordance with current data laws. But you're free to disagree all you want."


    "Ambassador, space is quite distinctly not an international zone. The Imperium controls several dozen systems within the Interior Territories alone, and far more in the Exterior; discounting entirely the fact that the Imperium controls vast areas of space beyond the reach of star systems. The World Assembly has no right to be gathering information on our citizens, simply as a matter of security and privacy, and it certainly has no right to be doing so within our own borders."

    Kaschovia wrote:"Then you are more than welcome to vote against if this comes to vote."


    "Did you intend to imply that you have no intention of improving this legislation, and will merely dismiss any and all criticism, or was this merely another attempt at appearing oh-so clever?"

    Kaschovia wrote:And also, are you genuinely insinuating that this Assembly does not contain member nations more advanced than yourself?


    "I've insinuated nothing of the sort; the Imperium knows as a matter of fact that there exist more advanced Member-States. This does not make the World Assembly, or indeed, those foreign states, remotely qualified to overtake the role of the Imperial government."

    Kaschovia wrote:but I must ask, what makes Tinfect so capable of the qualification of an international body to do what it is mandated?"


    "The Imperium has a measure of trust in the competence of itself, Ambassador. Further, the World Assembly is necessarily a foreign entity; it is inherently underqualified to do the work of the Imperium. There are roles for it, of course; but unilaterally superseding the role of the Imperium within our own territories is not one of them."

    Kaschovia wrote:"Well, the CSSM doesn't care about all of your citizen's private transit. It cares about the commercial transit that takes place in international space."


    "This legislation makes no distinction between space and 'international' space."

    Kaschovia wrote:"Do what? Prohibit other member nations from conducting commercial spaceflight?"


    "I certainly hope your misinterpretation was not deliberate; certainly Member-States are to be assumed to be reasonably capable of preventing unauthorized launch within their own territories? Those unauthorized launches in foreign territories are the concern of foreign governments; not of the Imperium."

    Kaschovia wrote:"Like I said before, any data kept will be under currently existing data protection laws, the same laws you and I are both subject to. I don't need to clarify that in the resolution because it's an already established regulation."


    "I would hope it has been made clear by now that we find the paltry protections of the World Assembly's laws regarding information to be sorely lacking."

    Kaschovia wrote:"In your opinion. There are many nations who wish to promote commercial spaceflight, but do not yet have the technology or the knowledge to do to safely and sustainably, but are on the cusp of it, so, for one second, think about any nation other than your own that might exist, and consider their position on this issue before refuting every possible point you can."


    "Quite unlike certain Delegations, the Imperium prefers to refrain from speaking on matters for which it is not qualified. The Imperium speaks for its own interests.

    But, so as to humor you; the only Member-States to whom this legislation could be useful are those particularly primitive Member-States which lack any capacity for or understanding of space travel. For all others, this Legislation serves solely to dismantle any systems currently in place, and provide an obstruction or, in certain circumstances, hazard, to future development. Advanced Member-States lacking means of public transportation, or those heavily reliant on privately-operated systems for such, will effectively grind to a halt as those services all, simultaneously, shut down, so as to acquire entirely new licensing. In the Imperium, in the interests of the safety and security of our citizens, the industry is simply abolished entirely; livelihoods and professions would dissolve in an instant, and not all Member-States are so kind as to prepare an exit mechanism for those personnel in now-nonexistent work.

    I certainly hope that suffices, Ambassador."
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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:10 pm

    "No. Neither is it centered on your nation, Ambassador. Please refrain from making any undue assumptions in the text."

    "The Imperium may say that it has the capabilities to fulfil the requirements of the proposal, but exemptions are not consistent with WA rules. If they were, any nation could claim that they were capable of handling the mandates of a resolution, and therefore, all nations could, making the WA useless as a legislative body."
    "Yes, and?"

    "I was referencing tourism from within ones borders to space, not from foreign states to within national borders, but since there is no actual need to include that in the resolution, I've removed the it from the draft, so the confusion on this topic should be cleared up."
    "Do not mistake the legal capacity of a foreign entity to do so for qualification. Imperial Civil Oversight has been setting such standards for centuries; and it has full access to all design and material specifications necessary to make any such determinations. An 'international' standard, tuned to the lowest-common-denominator, all but certainly, is nothing but an obstruction, and an invitation to disaster where the actual needs of something far exceed the standards imposed by the World Assembly."

    "If you want to help me match, or supercede, what you believe to be the capability of the ICO in the requirements for this resolution, so nations like Tinfect can benefit from this resolution, then please do. It'd be better than this banal, tennis match of an altercation. But if you wish to endlessly keep assuming Tinfectian supremacy in the industry of commercial spaceflight, please refer to my first response."
    "And why, exactly, is the unfortunate incompetence of certain lesser Member-States justification to supercede the authority of all Member-States? In other words, Ambassador, if certain member-states are unable to manage their affairs, why is that the concern of the Imperium? Or, for example, the Confederate Dominion? In other words; why is this a matter justifying International action in the first place? You cannot simply presume that it is wherein there is reasonable dispute of the matter."

    "If you genuinely believe Tinfect has superior standards for commercial spaceflight, perhaps your contribution to this matter, one of which it seems you are heavily invested, should be to help achieve international standards that match what you believe to be the superior standards of your nation, so Tinfect can prove that it is capable of safe commercial spaceflight for the citizens it is responsible for as a member of the World Assembly. Otherwise, you are free to just... disagree, which would be a waste of the abilities Tinfect has in this area, but please don't continue to suggest this proposal is not needed because your nation supercedes its requirements. Alhough I hope it isn't, if the latter is the path you wish to follow, please, once again, refer to my first response."
    "Quite well, I assure you. The interference of unnecessary and unwanted foreign personnel is, perhaps tautologically, unnecessary, and unwanted."

    "Once again, Ambassador, my first response. Prove that Tinfect is capable of the requirements the Imperium must believe are necessary. But don't just claim it."
    "Attempting to make 'clever quips' is a poor replacement for a genuine argument, Ambassador. Do answer the question, if you're able?"

    "I am simply addressing how you have chosen to approach this issue. I am not trying to be clever."

    "In response to your position on the issue: there are many areas of WA law that any nation could refute with the argument of national sovereignty in the vein of individual capability in handling the law in question, but, as previously passed WA laws prove, international standards of the highest degree are required for a whole variety of issues involving the people and business of member nations, regardless of the capabilities of member nations to handle said issues. I am sure your argument has been used to attempt refute hundreds of passed laws in the past as well, which is why your knowledge of these issues are needed for this draft, if you believe Tinfect to be of superior standards."
    "Do read your own proposal, Ambassador; unless you expect me to believe that the Inspectors are to enter an application on behalf of the entity they are inspecting?"

    "I believe there may have been some confusion. Inspectors would verify that the member nation is capable of fulfilling the requirements of the license, and therefore validate their application for one. The CSSM would have no bearing on who exactly would be putting this application together or submitting it within an applying organisation, although I would reasonably assume that if an organisation genuinely wished to apply for the license, they would task a capable, knowledgeable person with doing so, so that the applications chances of acceptance are raised. The CSSM would review the application and inspect whether or not they are capable of mitigating the risks to the lives of the passengers of which their operations would involve, and make a decision following inspection. Does any part of that explanation still not agree with you?"
    "Ambassador, space is quite distinctly not an international zone. The Imperium controls several dozen systems within the Interior Territories alone, and far more in the Exterior; discounting entirely the fact that the Imperium controls vast areas of space beyond the reach of star systems. The World Assembly has no right to be gathering information on our citizens, simply as a matter of security and privacy, and it certainly has no right to be doing so within our own borders.

    "Your last statement seems to be in complete contradiction to everything the World Assembly exists to achieve. How else would the WA ensure its laws are upheld than to gather the information required to do so? Telepathy? Unless the WA exists simply to ask member nations nicely to follow its laws, which, like my first response, means the WA, effectively, is useless."
    "Did you intend to imply that you have no intention of improving this legislation, and will merely dismiss any and all criticism, or was this merely another attempt at appearing oh-so clever?"

    "I am implying that you can continue to disagree with and eventually vote against the general aim of this proposal, or, as I have said, you could help me improve it."
    "I've insinuated nothing of the sort; the Imperium knows as a matter of fact that there exist more advanced Member-States. This does not make the World Assembly, or indeed, those foreign states, remotely qualified to overtake the role of the Imperial government."

    "That's good."

    "And I think it does. The fact that there are more advanced nations than others in every single area covered by WA law, means, by default, that WA law exists to set the standards, or otherwise, it is useless, and only asks member nations nicely. So, help me get this draft to international standard, for the benefit of every nation, if you believe it is not already."
    "The Imperium has a measure of trust in the competence of itself, Ambassador. Further, the World Assembly is necessarily a foreign entity; it is inherently underqualified to do the work of the Imperium. There are roles for it, of course; but unilaterally superseding the role of the Imperium within our own territories is not one of them."

    "First response."

    "The WA is already involved in hundreds of areas of law the Imperium may or may not cover. Is Tinfect generally opposed to all areas of WA regulation of which it believes it has more effective national law?"
    "This legislation makes no distinction between space and 'international' space."

    "Thank you for pointing this out. I hope my amendment to the definition of commercial spaceflight activity helps make this distinction more apparent."
    "I certainly hope your misinterpretation was not deliberate; certainly Member-States are to be assumed to be reasonably capable of preventing unauthorized launch within their own territories? Those unauthorized launches in foreign territories are the concern of foreign governments; not of the Imperium."

    "It was not a misinterpretation. Your initial response was, rather. The purpose of that clause is to only allow a body capable of regulating commercial spaceflight to an internationally recognized standard (the CSSM) to authorize commercial spaceflight activities for nations who either: 1) require such guidance due to inexperience, given contributions from experienced nations like Tinfect, 2) nations who need it so little that it would be really easy to prove beyond reasonably doubt that their spaceflight activities are not going to risk the deaths of those involved, and 3) nations who are somewhat comfortable with their spaceflight safety, but want to ensure that all of their commercial spaceflight activities are safe for those involved. There may be cases that I have not included, but they are the general cases for which that clause would apply."
    "I would hope it has been made clear by now that we find the paltry protections of the World Assembly's laws regarding information to be sorely lacking."

    "First response."
    "Quite unlike certain Delegations, the Imperium prefers to refrain from speaking on matters for which it is not qualified. The Imperium speaks for its own interests.

    But, so as to humor you; the only Member-States to whom this legislation could be useful are those particularly primitive Member-States which lack any capacity for or understanding of space travel. For all others, this Legislation serves solely to dismantle any systems currently in place, and provide an obstruction or, in certain circumstances, hazard, to future development. Advanced Member-States lacking means of public transportation, or those heavily reliant on privately-operated systems for such, will effectively grind to a halt as those services all, simultaneously, shut down, so as to acquire entirely new licensing. In the Imperium, in the interests of the safety and security of our citizens, the industry is simply abolished entirely; livelihoods and professions would dissolve in an instant, and not all Member-States are so kind as to prepare an exit mechanism for those personnel in now-nonexistent work.

    I certainly hope that suffices, Ambassador."

    "It does not suffice."

    "If your argument was correct, any industry affected by WA resolution that holds significant importance within the Imperium will have lead to the dissolution of countless livelihoods tens of times over already, which I would assume is enough for any gargantuan spacefaring civilisation with incomprehensibly large areas of jurisdiction? And even if that held true, given the expanse of the Imperium over what I must assume is lightyears of physical space, how does any WA regulation come into effect over all of the physical territories of Tinfect once it is passed? I would assume that due to the physical distance between territories in the Imperium, it simply cannot be helped if commercial spaceflight does not become properly regulated for a very very long time, unless the Imperium has access to some unknown communication technology? Tinfect is not advanced enough to break the laws of physics, is it?"

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    Araraukar
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    Corrupt Dictatorship

    Postby Araraukar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:44 am

    Kaschovia wrote:but exemptions are not consistent with WA rules. If they were, any nation could claim that they were capable of handling the mandates of a resolution, and therefore, all nations could, making the WA useless as a legislative body.

    OOC: You're missing the point. The point is that making a WA committee do the licencing, when the WA nations are capable of doing so themselves, is a security risk and creates unnecessary double bureaucracy if the nations already have a working system in place. Many resolutions have "unless such is already in place" as a qualifier, to avoid the double bureaucracy or unnecessary research or licencing or whatnot.

    WA often gets compared to the EU - driver's licences are a good example for this: I did everything needed for my driver's licence in Finland, applied to the Finnish system and all that. It just also has the EU stamp on it, because the EU has authorized the EU nations to issue EU licences simply because they are EU nations.

    You could apply the same here: ditch the committee and make WA nations sort out the licencing. That'll also plug the security hole, or at least return the ball to the nations themselves. Tends to get liked by voters more, too.

    Is Tinfect generally opposed to all areas of WA regulation of which it believes it has more effective national law?

    Any rational nation would be. And if you look through the actual drafting threads of the passed resolutions, you'll notice that many of them have been fiercely debated exactly for this reason.

    break the laws of physics

    You realize that you're saying that in IC in a place that itself breaks the laws of physics, right? :P
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    Kaschovia
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    Postby Kaschovia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:17 am

    OOC: You're missing the point. The point is that making a WA committee do the licencing, when the WA nations are capable of doing so themselves, is a security risk and creates unnecessary double bureaucracy if the nations already have a working system in place. Many resolutions have "unless such is already in place" as a qualifier, to avoid the double bureaucracy or unnecessary research or licencing or whatnot.

    WA often gets compared to the EU - driver's licences are a good example for this: I did everything needed for my driver's licence in Finland, applied to the Finnish system and all that. It just also has the EU stamp on it, because the EU has authorized the EU nations to issue EU licences simply because they are EU nations.

    You could apply the same here: ditch the committee and make WA nations sort out the licencing. That'll also plug the security hole, or at least return the ball to the nations themselves. Tends to get liked by voters more, too.

    Do I sense... an actual... suggestion?! (Seriously, that's what I was hoping for :p )

    Funnily enough I was actually thinking of suggesting something similar to Tinfect, but I convinced myself otherwise quite quickly. I will amend the proposal to mandate that individual nations license commercial spaceflight.

    I am still hesitant, however, that Tinfect will once again say the standards of the Imperium are much better and therefore this resolution is not needed, or something along those lines. How does one achieve effective legislation when there may always be some IC nation with 'oh-so-superior' standards? This is a genuine GA question. Hypothetically, couldn't everyone just declare their national standards are 'already in place', IC, and then if so, how does the WA verify that without the mandate to do so through a committee? Like I said to Tinfect, do we expect the WA to ask member nations to follow laws and meet standards nicely? How else can that work?
    Any rational nation would be. And if you look through the actual drafting threads of the passed resolutions, you'll notice that many of them have been fiercely debated exactly for this reason.

    Hmm.
    You realize that you're saying that in IC in a place that itself breaks the laws of physics, right? :P

    Yeah, I'm new to this stuff. Just curious what the Imperium will say :lol:

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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:21 am

    NOTICE: This proposal is now post-committee. I have instead chosen to utilize the Commercial Spaceflight Safety Protocol, which allows member nations to award licenses to applying commercial spaceflight organisations, verifying the safety of their practises to a national standard. I hope that this amendment prevents the double bereaucracy and security risks that mandating a committee issue licenses would create, while also ensuring that the WA recognizes that all spacefaring, or space ambitious nations should guarantee, to the best of their abilities, the safety of all those involved with commercial spaceflight.
    Last edited by Kaschovia on Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Araraukar
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    Corrupt Dictatorship

    Postby Araraukar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:01 am

    Kaschovia wrote:I am still hesitant, however, that Tinfect will once again say

    OOC: She's been using IC on this thread, so it's one of her IC ambassadors who's been saying things. And given what I know of the culture of the nation, you've been getting off easily for not having your ambassador being called primitive and stuff. :P

    the standards of the Imperium are much better

    Think of it this way; you're most likely able to walk and have been walking since you were a baby. Imagine that then came along some international committee saying that you don't know how to walk unless you get their permission to do so. (I know you already agreed to edit, but I'm drawing the parallel to show the basic reasoning.) Since you've been walking all your life or at least as long as you can remember, it's blatantly idiotic for someone to try to say you don't know how to do so unless you have a piece of paper saying you can.

    Do you understand where Tinfect's IC chara's coming from?

    therefore this resolution is not needed

    To be fair, it's very likely not, for the most part, but going with "licence your space pilots (or the equivalent) as necessary" is going in the right direction.

    How does one achieve effective legislation when there may always be some IC nation with 'oh-so-superior' standards? This is a genuine GA question.

    By compromising. That's why I'm talking Out Of Character - in IC my ambassador wouldn't be much more understanding about this proposal than Tinfect's is, despite Araraukar having no space program of its own (it's part of an ESA-type multinational space program) and being more or less on par with RL technologically. (Application-wise very different, but actual tech discoveries are about same.)

    Hypothetically, couldn't everyone just declare their national standards are 'already in place', IC

    Yes. Most reasonable nations that have space programs or where commercial spaceflights are a thing, would already have legislation in place (or applied suitable parts of existing laws). Not having something internationally doesn't mean same as not having anything nationally. Sometimes nations can do better than a committee could, and the WA doesn't specifically need to really verify it in any way, because the nations would be shooting themselves in the foot if they failed to do as told. Like here, any nation that doesn't already have some kind of requirements for sending a payload to orbit, is just asking to have a horrible disaster happen sooner or later in one of their population centers. Since such things tend to make citizens unhappy with the government, a reasonable nation with commercial spaceslight would already have some laws in place, likely to the tune of "you break it, you pay it" at the very least.

    do we expect the WA to ask member nations to follow laws and meet standards nicely? How else can that work?

    Some people have tried to write it as a mandatory function via a resolution and a committee, and have yet to give a proper answer on what happens if a nation obeys all the resolutions that require the nation to do something for the good of their citizens, and then ignore the existence of that particular committee. Basically you can't force RolePlay, no matter how much you try. You can be in WA and go to, say, International Incidents and roleplay like you'd never even heard of the WA, not to mention any of the resolutions. Or have factbooks that show that your nation in its IC form ignores some (or all, though that's unlikely to happen) of the resolutions. That's the downside of the freeform roleplay. The only thing that anyone can really ask is that if you as a nation are ignoring some of the resolutions and post on this forum in IC a lot, that you either also roleplay the results of what happens from the insubordination (that is, abide by the attempts to enforce RP via committees in resolutions), or don't openly talk about the noncompliance. But that's a GA forum specific code of conduct thing, nothing more.

    You can also argue, like I do, that the stat effects from resolutions passing along with the TG you get, mean that the resolutions' effects get applied to your nation, whether it's being tardy with compliance or not. IA & co. will snort and whicker about "magical compliance" on this form of thought, but it's no more magical than expecting over twenty thousand nations to all get compliant with a radically different (from their own previously existing ones) the instant it passes, simply because a committee says it must. Or to have a non-tyrannical nation able to get anything done quickly (I mean, just look at the Brexit mess - it's been ongoing for what, 3 years now?) in the first place.

    But I digress. Point is that GA forum has a forum netiquette rule of "don't flaunt noncompliance, or else RP the consequences well, please", and there are gameside stat effects that get applied to your nation if it's in the WA when a resolution passes. And that's all you can really have. As a genuine GA answer.

    You realize that you're saying that in IC in a place that itself breaks the laws of physics, right? :P

    Yeah, I'm new to this stuff.

    Well, think of it: even if all WA nations were RL-esque ones, you couldn't fit twenty thousand of them on a single planet (in RL we can barely fit 200), but if most of them are Modern Tech (RL-esque) ones, that means no traveling between the stars, which means that the only way to have as many Earth-based nations as there are, that have nevertheless ever even heard of one another, the only way to achieve that is to have multiple universes. And because all WA nations can send ambassadors to the WAHQ (GA forum being the forum-side manifestation) to debate these matters, it means that the WAHQ lies in some kind of multiversal nexus able to connect to everywhere it needs to.

    Also there are curiosities, like discussions on drafting threads dragging on for months (while in reality it'd be the same discussion only lasting minutes or at most hours), ambassadors appearing to be debating in multiple debate halls (drafting threads) at the same time, while also knocking back a few drinks at the Strangers' Bar, and probably also getting some sleep in their living quarters/offices, and how, no matter where the windows face that your ambassador gets defenestrated from, they'll always land harmlessly in the Reflecting Pool that's never deep enough to actually drown in or shallow enough to actually get hurt. And how all lethal attacks in the shared spaces (or anywhere you need them to work to avoid weapons pissing contests) become humorous nonlethal ones (with a tendency to backfire on the attacker) when aimed at another sapient person because of the Acme Weapons Nullifiers... and all this basically stemming from the universal rules of "Don't Be A Dick" and "Rule of Funny".
    - Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
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    Kaschovia
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    Postby Kaschovia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:03 pm

    OOC: She's been using IC on this thread, so it's one of her IC ambassadors who's been saying things. And given what I know of the culture of the nation, you've been getting off easily for not having your ambassador being called primitive and stuff. :P

    Yeah, I understood that it was an ambassador speaking, but it is still Tinfect, the person, writing the response. That's all I meant.
    Think of it this way; you're most likely able to walk and have been walking since you were a baby. Imagine that then came along some international committee saying that you don't know how to walk unless you get their permission to do so. (I know you already agreed to edit, but I'm drawing the parallel to show the basic reasoning.) Since you've been walking all your life or at least as long as you can remember, it's blatantly idiotic for someone to try to say you don't know how to do so unless you have a piece of paper saying you can.

    Do you understand where Tinfect's IC chara's coming from?

    While I don't think that walking is necessarily the best example, I do understand, yeah. I hope you can understand where my confusion, and maybe even concern, about the stance of the Imperium has come from. Because there are still nations who will need some kind of protocol to follow when becoming more advanced in space, which is why, if you'd think it'd help, I can consider writing into legislation some kind of exemption requirement for nations who can prove that their spaceflight is completely safe and sustainable already.
    To be fair, it's very likely not, for the most part, but going with "licence your space pilots (or the equivalent) as necessary" is going in the right direction.

    I do think it is needed. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of previously passed resolutions that many nations, like you have said, have fiercely debated their own capabilities at fulfilling their mandates. They most likely also will have argued that the resolution isn't needed much because of the same arguments we have seen in this thread. Just because a resolution might not be needed by one nation as much as another, doesn't mean that the resolution isn't needed in general. Although if you believe there is a different reason nations shouldn't be obligated to ensure the safety of their passengers on commercial spaceflight, I'd be interested as to what that reason might be. I'm glad that you think its going in the right direction, though.
    By compromising. That's why I'm talking Out Of Character - in IC my ambassador wouldn't be much more understanding about this proposal than Tinfect's is, despite Araraukar having no space program of its own (it's part of an ESA-type multinational space program) and being more or less on par with RL technologically. (Application-wise very different, but actual tech discoveries are about same.)

    Okay. That makes sense.
    Yes. Most reasonable nations that have space programs or where commercial spaceflights are a thing, would already have legislation in place (or applied suitable parts of existing laws). Not having something internationally doesn't mean same as not having anything nationally. Sometimes nations can do better than a committee could, and the WA doesn't specifically need to really verify it in any way, because the nations would be shooting themselves in the foot if they failed to do as told. Like here, any nation that doesn't already have some kind of requirements for sending a payload to orbit, is just asking to have a horrible disaster happen sooner or later in one of their population centers. Since such things tend to make citizens unhappy with the government, a reasonable nation with commercial spaceslight would already have some laws in place, likely to the tune of "you break it, you pay it" at the very least.

    The same could be said for most resolutions. Like I said before, I'm sure this has been argued for a lot of previously passed resolutions. I'm sure there are nations that could supersede WA law with their national law for every resolution, but I'd like to believe the purpose of the WA is to at least try to pass effective legislation for the majority of nations who really do need it.
    Some people have tried to write it as a mandatory function via a resolution and a committee, and have yet to give a proper answer on what happens if a nation obeys all the resolutions that require the nation to do something for the good of their citizens, and then ignore the existence of that particular committee. Basically you can't force RolePlay, no matter how much you try. You can be in WA and go to, say, International Incidents and roleplay like you'd never even heard of the WA, not to mention any of the resolutions. Or have factbooks that show that your nation in its IC form ignores some (or all, though that's unlikely to happen) of the resolutions. That's the downside of the freeform roleplay. The only thing that anyone can really ask is that if you as a nation are ignoring some of the resolutions and post on this forum in IC a lot, that you either also roleplay the results of what happens from the insubordination (that is, abide by the attempts to enforce RP via committees in resolutions), or don't openly talk about the noncompliance. But that's a GA forum specific code of conduct thing, nothing more.

    You can also argue, like I do, that the stat effects from resolutions passing along with the TG you get, mean that the resolutions' effects get applied to your nation, whether it's being tardy with compliance or not. IA & co. will snort and whicker about "magical compliance" on this form of thought, but it's no more magical than expecting over twenty thousand nations to all get compliant with a radically different (from their own previously existing ones) the instant it passes, simply because a committee says it must. Or to have a non-tyrannical nation able to get anything done quickly (I mean, just look at the Brexit mess - it's been ongoing for what, 3 years now?) in the first place.

    But I digress. Point is that GA forum has a forum netiquette rule of "don't flaunt noncompliance, or else RP the consequences well, please", and there are gameside stat effects that get applied to your nation if it's in the WA when a resolution passes. And that's all you can really have. As a genuine GA answer.

    Okay, thanks for the detailed answer, Ara. It's cleared thing up for me a bit.
    Well, think of it: even if all WA nations were RL-esque ones, you couldn't fit twenty thousand of them on a single planet (in RL we can barely fit 200), but if most of them are Modern Tech (RL-esque) ones, that means no traveling between the stars, which means that the only way to have as many Earth-based nations as there are, that have nevertheless ever even heard of one another, the only way to achieve that is to have multiple universes. And because all WA nations can send ambassadors to the WAHQ (GA forum being the forum-side manifestation) to debate these matters, it means that the WAHQ lies in some kind of multiversal nexus able to connect to everywhere it needs to.

    Also there are curiosities, like discussions on drafting threads dragging on for months (while in reality it'd be the same discussion only lasting minutes or at most hours), ambassadors appearing to be debating in multiple debate halls (drafting threads) at the same time, while also knocking back a few drinks at the Strangers' Bar, and probably also getting some sleep in their living quarters/offices, and how, no matter where the windows face that your ambassador gets defenestrated from, they'll always land harmlessly in the Reflecting Pool that's never deep enough to actually drown in or shallow enough to actually get hurt. And how all lethal attacks in the shared spaces (or anywhere you need them to work to avoid weapons pissing contests) become humorous nonlethal ones (with a tendency to backfire on the attacker) when aimed at another sapient person because of the Acme Weapons Nullifiers... and all this basically stemming from the universal rules of "Don't Be A Dick" and "Rule of Funny".

    This explains it better than how I'd tried to understand it, so thank you! :)

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    Sierra Lyricalia
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    Civil Rights Lovefest

    Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 pm

    "Clause 5 is unacceptable in its current state, as it would require the widespread dissemination of extremely sensitive military technical secrets. To the extent that it requires only the sharing of basic principles, it is useless, as civilian scientists have long since explicated those; and to the extent that it requires active technical assistance and the sharing of actual engineering specs, the national security compromises are a total non-starter. You should rewrite this clause or lose it entirely if you want this to come close to passing."
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    .
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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:34 pm

    Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"Clause 5 is unacceptable in its current state, as it would require the widespread dissemination of extremely sensitive military technical secrets. To the extent that it requires only the sharing of basic principles, it is useless, as civilian scientists have long since explicated those; and to the extent that it requires active technical assistance and the sharing of actual engineering specs, the national security compromises are a total non-starter. You should rewrite this clause or lose it entirely if you want this to come close to passing."

    "I'll remove the clause all together. I agree, it is rather redundant."

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    Kaschovia
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    Anarchy

    Postby Kaschovia » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:21 am

    I intend to continue working on this proposal, so if anyone has any thoughts on this that have not been brought up, or any feedback, that would be greatly appreciated.

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