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Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:11 pm

Bananaistan wrote:OOC: Significant is fine IMO. Mild would be too. I've zero interest in assessing a "how long is a piece of string?" type question.

It's settled then. Banana will take a battalion of clones...



Any substantive non-hysterical-this-is-illegal comments?
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Thetopia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Thetopia » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:31 am

Would this prevent Nations from pushing propaganda in schools and else where? I feel like that could become a very difficult grey area if so considering one could argue that it's not technically outlawing a belief, but simply teaching one that is more favorable, albeit technically by force/fear tactics. Not to mention I assume National Sovereignty would play some part as well, but that's just a guess coming from a rebuilding nation.

OOC (I guess?): Did I do it right?

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:02 am

Thetopia wrote:
Would this prevent Nations from pushing propaganda in schools and else where? I feel like that could become a very difficult grey area if so considering one could argue that it's not technically outlawing a belief, but simply teaching one that is more favorable, albeit technically by force/fear tactics. Not to mention I assume National Sovereignty would play some part as well, but that's just a guess coming from a rebuilding nation.

OOC (I guess?): Did I do it right?

Would such a policy contravene the proposed policy that "within the jurisdiction of the World Assembly, there may not be enacted or enforced any law, policy, or regulation which shall impose any legal penalty or create any right of action against the holding of or belief in any thought"?
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Wayneactia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:48 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:OOC: Significant is fine IMO. Mild would be too. I've zero interest in assessing a "how long is a piece of string?" type question.

It's settled then. Banana will take a battalion of clones...



Any substantive non-hysterical-this-is-illegal comments?


Yeah. This is covered by The Charter of Civil Rights and is totally superfluous, if not completely duplicative.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:50 am

Cf two posts below your response the last time you said that.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:24 am

“It would be less repetitive if you had ‘its jurisdiction’ rather than ‘the jurisdiction of the World Assembly’ in your first and indeed last clause.”
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:58 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Presumably it advances civil rights in a significant fashion. The NS site statisticians are generally mum on their rationales.

OOC: Reason I asked Sanct is because FMRI scans aside, it's unenforceable (because the only realworld application would be some totalitarian regime and people not buying into the official truth or whatever, and if the ruling regime was willing to go to such lengths, they could loophole this thing to death and compliance committee wouldn't be able to do anything) and thus meaningless (hence not meriting more than Mild strength), beyond what CoCR already does. If they saw something in it that's more than you've been able to explain - and which the proposal itself does not do - it would have been interesting to get their POV.
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Separatist Peoples
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:10 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Presumably it advances civil rights in a significant fashion. The NS site statisticians are generally mum on their rationales.

OOC: Reason I asked Sanct is because FMRI scans aside, it's unenforceable (because the only realworld application would be some totalitarian regime and people not buying into the official truth or whatever, and if the ruling regime was willing to go to such lengths, they could loophole this thing to death and compliance committee wouldn't be able to do anything) and thus meaningless (hence not meriting more than Mild strength), beyond what CoCR already does. If they saw something in it that's more than you've been able to explain - and which the proposal itself does not do - it would have been interesting to get their POV.

"I imagine not. If nothing else, it allows a totalitarian regime to jail citizens and dissenters on more than just whim. Which, in the case of many tyrannical governments, is often valuable. Many despots, being lawfully evil, adhere to the law, tyrannical though it is.

"More to the point, it certainly prevents not-yet-tyrannical governments from getting into the business of thought control in the first place. Regime change is often followed by a crackdown on civil liberties to restabilize, even when, or perhaps especially when, the new regime deposes the old one in the name of freedom and liberty."

OOC: I can't help but think of how much longer the Reign of Terror would have gone on if the Committee of Public Safety was able to substitute genuine evidence for the public trials instead of just banning the submission of evidence. It would have been a lot harder for the people to topple Robespierre and Friends if the Committee could demonstrate actual proof to the people of their victim's counterrevolutionary beliefs. It strikes me that Louis XVI's trial would have been even less just, too. Or any religious or political inquisition, from Torquemada to McCarthy. This has merit.

Between that and deferring to the eminent wisdom of those with firsthand knowledge of the code, I'd say the strength is acceptable. I suspect that, given public input from an IE on the strength, GenSec would defer to that.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sanctaria
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Founded: Sep 12, 2008
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sanctaria » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:51 pm

Sorry, I don't come into this forum as often as I used to.

So Mild, Significant, and Strong are coded as, putting it very simply and this is just a vague thing so as to not give away the stats, Civil Rights + X, Civil Rights + Y, and Civil Rights + Z respectively. They used to be much stronger, where Mild used to be coded like we currently code Strong, but we've reduced it a few years ago.

What I generally do when I see a resolution like this, is I look through the issue base and see if we've had similar issue or issues on similar themes. In this case, it's a little difficult, since we don't have a whole host of issues on the topic and yes it's difficult to *prosecute* someone because of thought crimes, because it's hard to prove. But in the end the resolution is still instilling a right to be and to feel and to think free from government interference. So I look at bodily sovereignty issues, I look at euthanasia issues, and I look at (to a small extent) abortion issues. And we code those issues that grant those rights usually somewhere between Mild and Significant - but normally stronger than Mild.

If we code those issues stronger than Mild, then Mild is imo too weak a strength. If we usually code equal to, or a little less than Significant, than imo Significant is a more appropriate strength even if sometimes issues aren't always quite there.

I hope that makes sense. I don't have any influence at all over GenSec when it comes to ruling on matters of Strength and/or Category, but sometimes when I know the author and the discussion comes up in my presence, I have a wee gander and give my opinion. But it's just my opinion. What the author or GenSec do with that isn't something I have control over.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:09 pm

Okay, so now that Sanct has cleared everything up for everyone for a second time, any comments on this?

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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:28 pm

"Any particular reason for only prohibiting enforcement of laws on thought crime rather than striking them from the books of member nations?"
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:01 am

I prefer regulating actions to states.

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Marxist Germany
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Founded: Jun 07, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Marxist Germany » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:02 am

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 am

No consensus has emerged as to whether we ought stop calling out IC responses to OOC statements. Ms Mortimer Wellesley isn't in the committee chamber.

As to preambles. You don't need a preamble to write legislation. Go to legislation.gov.uk and look at the UK Public General Acts. Where are the preambles? Go to the Parliament (Qualification if Women) Act 1918. No preamble. I'm shocked that people voted for these Acts.

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Marxist Germany
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Marxist Germany » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:13 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:No consensus has emerged as to whether we ought stop calling out IC responses to OOC statements. Ms Mortimer Wellesley isn't in the committee chamber.

OOC:I assumed Ms Wellesly was in the chamber otherwise who is drafting but alright. As to your second statement, read your own recommendations.
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Author of GA#461

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Anti:Extreme Progressivism, Abortion, Socialism, Interventionism, Mass-migration.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:24 am

Oh wow, I wrote those a long time ago, I think before I had even written my first resolution. However that is, I don't hold the same views. Preambles are unnecessary.

EDIT: I wrote that so long ago, the Text line was called Description and I hadn't found out that blocktext tags don't work in the GA bbCode screen. One probably ought not take advice from a person of such meagre experience.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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