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[Draft] Against Abusive Families

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Aeravahn Reborn
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[Draft] Against Abusive Families

Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am

Against Abusive Families

Category: Civil Rights || Strength: Strong



Outsider Directive
"To know that we are not alone."
Writings of:
Thesaan, Bound of Cyranthes,
Ixsukat, Firstborn,



The World Assembly,

[Preamble To Come Later]

Hereby,

Defines:
  1. The deliberate rejection of a child's gender identity or sexual orientation by their parents or guardians as child abuse,

Mandates:
  1. That Member-States investigate any and all reports of child abuse to the best of their ability,
  2. That Member-States take all reasonable and appropriate actions to protect children from child abuse during, and following, an investigation,

Prohibits:
  1. Known child abusers from maintaining legal guardianship over children.


OOC:
90% of this is just a rehash of GAR 222, but I figured this was worthwhile.
Transphobes go home. As for legality, if, and only if, GenSec rules that the mental and emotional trauma restrictions in GAR 222 apply to this shit, will I drop this, as it will have become wholly redundant.
Last edited by Aeravahn Reborn on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:23 am

OOC:I don't see how this isn't covered by 222,if GenSec says otherwise I've got some IC feedback then.
"Marxist" no longer applies to this country. This country was made back when I was a leftist.
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Aeravahn Reborn
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Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:25 am

OOC:
The goal is to force GenSec to make that ruling. If it isn't found to duplicate it on that count, then this will proceed.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:OOC:
The goal is to force GenSec to make that ruling. If it isn't found to duplicate it on that count, then this will proceed.

They could just take it down because it's a moral decency, not a civil rights proposal
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 am

Aclion wrote:They could just take it down because it's a moral decency, not a civil rights proposal.


OOC:
You say that like I've submitted it already. It's here for a reason.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:40 am

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:They could just take it down because it's a moral decency, not a civil rights proposal.


OOC:
You say that like I've submitted it already. It's here for a reason.

Okay, but if your goal is to test one part of law it's a good idea to make sure your not going to trip up on anything else.

also it contradicts GAR 38, which I don't think you can get around and still get the precedent you want.
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Drystar
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Postby Drystar » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:45 am

OOC: I would argue prepubescent children don’t have a “sexual orientation”. Recalling my childhood I thought girls were icky at one point, but that definitely changed.

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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:46 am

Aclion wrote:
Tinfect wrote:
OOC:
You say that like I've submitted it already. It's here for a reason.

Okay, but if your goal is to test one part of law it's a good idea to make sure your not going to trip up on anything else.

also it contradicts GAR 38, which I don't think you can get around and still get the precedent you want.

OOC:How does it contradict GA#38?
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Author of GA#461

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:57 am

Marxist Germany wrote:
Aclion wrote:Okay, but if your goal is to test one part of law it's a good idea to make sure your not going to trip up on anything else.

also it contradicts GAR 38, which I don't think you can get around and still get the precedent you want.

OOC:How does it contradict GA#38?

(2) Acts of genocide include, but are not limited to: killing or inflicting serious harm upon members of the group, creating living conditions for the group which tend to bring about its physical destruction, forcibly removing children from the group, or taking measures to prevent births within the group.

2. Member nations are prohibited from perpetrating acts of genocide,
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:04 am

Aclion wrote:(2) Acts of genocide include, but are not limited to: killing or inflicting serious harm upon members of the group, creating living conditions for the group which tend to bring about its physical destruction, forcibly removing children from the group, or taking measures to prevent births within the group.

2. Member nations are prohibited from perpetrating acts of genocide,


OOC:
You do not know what you're talking about. This is talking about removal policies, often targeted against indigenous communities. Suffice it to say that saying that it provides child abuses an infinite license to abuse children is utterly and incredibly wrong.
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Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:11 am

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:(2) Acts of genocide include, but are not limited to: killing or inflicting serious harm upon members of the group, creating living conditions for the group which tend to bring about its physical destruction, forcibly removing children from the group, or taking measures to prevent births within the group.

2. Member nations are prohibited from perpetrating acts of genocide,


OOC:
You do not know what you're talking about. This is talking about removal policies, often targeted against indigenous communities. Suffice it to say that saying that it provides child abuses an infinite license to abuse children is utterly and incredibly wrong.

Except that you've defined child abuse as "The deliberate rejection of a child's gender identity or sexual orientation" which is a belief, something protected under GA 38, as opposed to someone beating/molesting/neglecting their child which isn't.
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
A free society rests on four boxes: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box.
XKI: Recruiter, TITO Knight
TEP: WA Executive Staff member
Forest: Cartographer
Oatland: Caesar, Cartographer

It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:15 am

Aclion wrote:Except that you've defined child abuse as "The deliberate rejection of a child's gender identity or sexual orientation" which is a belief.


OOC:
Which... has nothing to do with the clause you're quoting? You're legally entitled to be a transphobic bigot; transphobic bigot does not thus become a protected social class.
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Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:18 am

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:Except that you've defined child abuse as "The deliberate rejection of a child's gender identity or sexual orientation" which is a belief.


OOC:
Which... has nothing to do with the clause you're quoting? You're legally entitled to be a transphobic bigot; transphobic bigot does not thus become a protected social class.

GA 38 protect groups and parts of groups based on,
belief, ethnicity, nationality, culture, or a perceived innate characteristic, which for the purposes of this resolution shall include sexual orientation.
A free society rests on four boxes: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box.
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It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:19 am

Aclion wrote:GA 38 protect groups and parts of groups based on,
belief, ethnicity, nationality, culture, or a perceived innate characteristic, which for the purposes of this resolution shall include sexual orientation.


OOC:
... Mate. Transphobes are not a distinct social class on par with indigenous peoples. I do not know how to explain to you how incredibly offensive and absurd that is.
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Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 am

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:GA 38 protect groups and parts of groups based on,


OOC:
... Mate. Transphobes are not a distinct social class on par with indigenous peoples. I do not know how to explain to you how incredibly offensive and absurd that is.

Then repeal GA38 on the ground transphobic groups should be excluded.
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It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

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Maowi
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Postby Maowi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 am

Drystar wrote:OOC: I would argue prepubescent children don’t have a “sexual orientation”. Recalling my childhood I thought girls were icky at one point, but that definitely changed.

OOC: If the child in question does not have a/is unsure about their sexual orientation, I don’t think a parent could really reject it, although perhaps a parent could reject the fact that tyeir child is questioning their sexual orientation, in which case I would argue that this is (rightly) covered as child abuse by this draft.
Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:GA 38 protect groups and parts of groups based on,


OOC:
... Mate. Transphobes are not a distinct social class on par with indigenous peoples. I do not know how to explain to you how incredibly offensive and absurd that is.

And aside from how offensive that is, ‘belief’ =/= opinion. A belief in God is belief; a misguided opinion about a child’s sexual orientation is not.
Maowi


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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:26 am

Aclion wrote:Then repeal GA38 on the ground transphobic groups should be excluded.


OOC:
Except that isn't what GAR 38 says. Transphobes are not an identifiable group such that anything resembling genocide could be committed against them.
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Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:26 am

Maowi wrote:
Drystar wrote:OOC: I would argue prepubescent children don’t have a “sexual orientation”. Recalling my childhood I thought girls were icky at one point, but that definitely changed.

OOC: If the child in question does not have a/is unsure about their sexual orientation, I don’t think a parent could really reject it, although perhaps a parent could reject the fact that tyeir child is questioning their sexual orientation, in which case I would argue that this is (rightly) covered as child abuse by this draft.
Tinfect wrote:
OOC:
... Mate. Transphobes are not a distinct social class on par with indigenous peoples. I do not know how to explain to you how incredibly offensive and absurd that is.

And aside from how offensive that is, ‘belief’ =/= opinion. A belief in God is belief; a misguided opinion about a child’s sexual orientation is not.

GA38 doesn't define belief as a religious conviction, so we have to assume it means what it says. Whether the belief is offensive to you or not has no bearing.
Hell the whole point of preventing genocide is to prevent governments getting rid of people they find offensive.

an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
"we're prepared to fight for our beliefs"
a religious conviction.
"Christian beliefs"

2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:27 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
Against Abusive Families

Is this resolution targetted exclusively towards those who reject the LGBTQ+ orientation of their offspring, or is there nothing more to add except a preamble?
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:30 am

1. (1) Genocide shall be defined as any act committed, or measure enacted, with the intent to destroy, in whole or partially, an identifiable group of persons on the basis of belief, ethnicity, nationality, culture, or a perceived innate characteristic, which for the purposes of this resolution shall include sexual orientation.


OOC:
Transphobes simply do not count as an identifiable group of persons for the purposes of genocide. That is an utterly unreasonable interpretation.

I'll also note that nothing in this draft is about wiping out transphobes. It's about protecting children from them. Removing children from abusive homes is not genocide. Child abusers aren't an identifiable group of persons for the purposes of genocide either.

And, again, the shallow understanding provided by a dictionary definition of a word, is useless.
Last edited by Tinfect on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:33 am

Tinfect wrote:
1. (1) Genocide shall be defined as any act committed, or measure enacted, with the intent to destroy, in whole or partially, an identifiable group of persons on the basis of belief, ethnicity, nationality, culture, or a perceived innate characteristic, which for the purposes of this resolution shall include sexual orientation.


OOC:
Transphobes simply do not count as an identifiable group of persons for the purposes of genocide. That is an utterly unreasonable interpretation.

You seriously can't think of any identifiable groups of people that reject trangenderism/homosexuality?

I'll also note that nothing in this draft is about wiping out transphobes. It's about protecting children from them. Removing children from abusive homes is not genocide.

*Stares at Australian genocide*
Last edited by Aclion on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
A free society rests on four boxes: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box.
XKI: Recruiter, TITO Knight
TEP: WA Executive Staff member
Forest: Cartographer
Oatland: Caesar, Cartographer

It is the citizen's duty to understand which box to use, and when.

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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:37 am

Aclion wrote:You seriously can't think of any identifiable groups of people that reject trangenderism/homosexuality?


OOC:
First of all, let me just note that 'transgenderism', isn't the appropriate terminology.

Second, this is not about wiping out any one group or another, - even if we accept the absurd idea that there are groups for which rejection of trans or gay people is fundamental to their belief systems - It isn't even about wiping out transphobes specifically. It is about keeping children safe from violence and abuse.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:38 am

Aclion wrote:*Stares at Australian genocide*


OOC:
Don't you fucking dare use the genocide of indigenous peoples to shield this absurdity that child abusers are protected.
We are not a tool to defend bigotry. These are not comparable in any way.
Last edited by Tinfect on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Aeravahn occupy 1/5 of Exterior Territories, battered Third Fleet withdrawn from combat | Dejected Intelligence Operative enrolled in children's school, claims 'punishment for disobeying orders' | Experimental agricultural fungus accidentally released in New Kol, infects plant life, HLE teams deployed to remove infected plants | Indomitable Bastard #283
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:40 am

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:You seriously can't think of any identifiable groups of people that reject trangenderism/homosexuality?


OOC:
First of all, let me just note that 'transgenderism', isn't the appropriate terminology.

OOC:Just a genuine question here, what's the appropriate noun for being transgender?
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:02 am

“I am opposed on principle. Child abuse legislation is such a delicate issue that it needs to be handled on a case by case basis, with attention paid to differing circumstances. Simply requiring alternative custody in blanket situations risks taking away children in spite of their best interests.”

(OOC: I agree with Aclion on this. Doubting the idea of being transgender is a belief, by the common meaning of the term, and therefore is protected by GA #038. It is a flaw in that piece of legislation, but still is part of the resolution.)
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