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[Draft] On Refugee Crises

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Astrobolt
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Founded: Jul 30, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Astrobolt » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:15 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC disclaimer: Araraukarian stance on refugees and immigrants does not match my RL opinion on the issues.

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:Thesaan clarified. "What is the crime in seeking refuge where safest? Where the chance to live well is best? You presume that the refugee searches with mind to take, to steal; This is untrue. They search to live their lives as best they can. There is no crime in this."

"No crime, no, but it is unfair to nations who happen to have prospered through the hard work of their population and government to take in a bunch of freeloaders who don't speak the language, don't have an understanding of the national laws - if they come outside of the WA, likely not the WA resolutions either - not to mention traditions and cultural functions, who expect us, as a prosperous nation, to let them in just because they happen to not like the living conditions in the nearest nation that they flee to. If they come through a safe nation, then why the hell should we let them in? They already were in a safe nation. As far as Araraukar is concerned, they are thus no longer fleeing genocide and do not fall under this proposal."


"Ambassador Thesaan voiced their opposition to making the 'safe nation' idea a part of the proposal. There is nothing in the proposal (from my understanding) that makes it illegal for member states to refuse entry to refugees who are attempting to enter the member state in question through a 'safe nation'.

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Aeravahn Reborn
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Postby Aeravahn Reborn » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:45 pm

OOC:
New draft. It's a bit cumbersome, and I'm sure I've screwed up somewhere, but I've tackled some raised issues.

And, no, for any of y'all reactionaries reading this, I am not going to pretend to seriously field racist dogwhistles and narratives here. If you don't like it, the WA is not the place for you.
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Marxist Germany
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Founded: Jun 07, 2018
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Postby Marxist Germany » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:01 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:
West Phoenicia wrote:How about in including, fleeing refugees need to accept the first nation that offers to assistance them or the nearest safe nation to them as opposed to running to the countries with the best benefits and free stuff they can milk from a nation.


We all under stand the need to flee persecution, but there is no need to country shop as it becomes more greed than need.

Please include a clause nearest nation to offer them save haven


There was a pause. Ixsukat wasn't entirely sure she'd quite heard what she had just heard.
"... No," she said eventually.

Thesaan clarified. "What is the crime in seeking refuge where safest? Where the chance to live well is best? You presume that the refugee searches with mind to take, to steal; This is untrue. They search to live their lives as best they can. There is no crime in this."

"Seeking refuge is trying to find a safe place to live in, not shopping for the best welfare packages, as long as your proposal is silent or allows member-states to refuse refugees who've already passed through safe countries, I'm in support of it; elsewise I'm opposed."
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:35 am

“Prohibiting clause 3 is overly broad. It would include, amongst other things: terrorists, murderers, enemy commanders, those known to be spies, rapists and lots of other people whom are not desirable to have. I understand I am discussing a tiny minority here, but it is still an important consideration.”
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NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
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This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:56 am

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:OOC: And, no, for any of y'all reactionaries reading this, I am not going to pretend to seriously field racist dogwhistles and narratives here. If you don't like it, the WA is not the place for you.

OOC: You know that's catching Imperium of Tinfect, right? :P
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:02 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: You know that's catching Imperium of Tinfect, right? :P


OOC:
Hence why I'm working this on the Aeravahn.
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 am

OOC: Just for you, I'm bringing out the Proposal ScalpelTM to slice up your beastie to see what it's eaten. IC and OOC clearly marked.

Aeravahn Reborn wrote:Concerned by the lack of legislation adequately protecting those fleeing from persecution or conflict,

IC: "Except, you know, the existing resolutions on the matter," Linda snorted, sneaking more pictures of the cute birdy creature. "If you're not intending this to be a replacement, you could at least acknowledge the previous efforts at refugee protection."

Horrified by the policies of many nations against refugee welfare or basic rights,

OOC: Like what? I mean, seriously, what? If a nation is compliant with existing resolutions, how the hell would they be able to do any of that?

Seeking to end these injustices immediately,

IC: "You mean the injustices which you have no evidence for? I mean, doesn't your coalition have an actual genocide survivor species in it?" Linda went on, checking a piece of paper with handwritten notes on it. "Why didn't you bring one of them to talk about this? The Tinfectians can't hurt you here."

Defines:
  1. Refugee, as any individual fleeing oppression of civil rights, as defined by the Member-State in question and International Law, Genocide, or Conflict, in a nation of origin,

IC: "Okay, I promised my superior I wouldn't make any bird-brained jokes, plus the birdy creature is too cute to insult, but the alternative is that you are simply insane. "Fleeing oppression of civil rights"? Seriously? Or international law? Why should terrorists and pirates and war criminals get the refugee label? Also, "conflict"? Are you intentionally trying to create chaos in the WA? Letting the populations of nations involved even in a peaceful conflict (OOC RL: see Hans Island) to become refugees at will and then go "shopping for the best welfare package" as one ambassador put it? This alone will be enough to make us decide to actively campaign against this when the time for submission comes, unless it receives serious re-writing."

OOC: You listing international law with genocide and conflict (also, for fuck's sake, stop the Random Noun capitalization) is what makes fugitives from law count as refugees. Needs more clarity. Also what she said about peaceful conflicts and populations in general.

2. Concentration, as any laws or guidances, requiring or recommending the confinement of refugees, as a class, to ghettos, camps, or otherwise similar sites,

OOC: This still doesn't catch the action of actually doing so.

3. Separation, as any laws or guidances, requiring or recommending the separation of refugee families or similar during settlement or processing,

IC: "Going in the right direction, though it still includes processing, which still violates privacy, and the "or similar" is vague to the extreme. Needs more work."

Mandates:
  1. That Member-States rescind any laws or guidances defined as Separation or Concentration, and prohibit the issuance of any further such laws or guidances,

OOC: As with the definition, still doesn't actually catch the actual action of doing so.

2. That Member-States utilizing short-term concentration take any and all practical measures to ensure the settlement of refugees in normal conditions,

IC: "...sounds good. We can then return them to their homeland where they'll be in "normal conditions"."

3. That Member-States offer emergency asylum to any refugee fleeing genocide,

OOC: You still don't define emergency asylum, and if you're requiring all refugees to be settled in the target nation, then it's not exactly emergency anything, but just plain asylum. Also, asylum =/= permanent residence.

4. That Member-States offer either optional repatriation, or a method of acquiring permanent residence or citizenship, when the reasons for refugee status have been resolved,

IC: "So as long as we don't ask them why they're refugees, we can just ship them out of our nation and they'll be someone else's problem. Sounds good. There's a whole ocean to the south of us. We'll just put them in row boats-" Linda paused as an aide shook her arm urgently and whispered something in her ear. "Okay, fine, aliens might not understand a joke when they hear one, so obviously we wouldn't actually abandon anyone in the middle of an ocean. There are islands out there too, that technically don't belong to anyone because they haven't got anything of value on them. Let them fend for themselves there." The aide facepalmed and then tried to mime behind the acting ambassador's back that she occasionally spoke crazy stuff.

Prohibits:
  1. Member-States from engaging in concentration, as defined by this resolution, except on a strictly temporary basis as an immediate precursor to transportation or settlement,

OOC: Your definition needs to actually catch the action for this to do what you want it to do.

2. Member-States from engaging in separation, as defined by this resolution, except on a strictly temporary basis where strictly required for privacy or safety reasons,

OOC: Same here.

3. Member-States from refusing refugees fleeing from genocide, or from conflicts in which the Member-State is involved,

IC: "And exactly what do you think will happen to them in the nation that is their nation's enemy? Violence aside, they would likely not be able to intergrate into the main population at all, even after the conflict has ended, as conflicts tend to generate grudges, regardless of who wins. They would honestly be better off in some other nation. Any other nation."

OOC: To counter your "USA fucks up nations and does nothing to repair the situation" thing is NOT helped by this AT ALL. Just look at how Middle-Eastern-looking people are treated in USA right now. If you want to prevent that thing from happening, require them to do what EU at least tries to do, which is rebuilding. But that'll take a whole 'nother resolution. But this is not the answer to that problem.

4. Member-States from forcibly repatriating refugees for any reason,

IC: "Still unacceptable, after the nation of origin is safe for them again. This just encourages "welfare package shopping" within the WA."

Clarifies:
  1. That emergency asylum status, as mandated by this resolution, is to be sustained until such time as transportation and resettlement in another safe Member-State has been secured,

OOC: You need to actually define what emergency asylum means, if you're using it in this manner. Also, given that you mention "safe" there - what counts as safe? See my points on the previous clause 3. (And again, for fuck's sake, number your main clauses and use alphabets for the subclauses. The whole "scripture" thing is fucking annoying.) Additionally, read this to find the problems with this clause.

2. That nothing in this resolution may be construed as to prohibit the placement of refugees in medical quarantine, or otherwise necessary confinement, on an individual, case-by-case basis,

IC: "...so we are allowed to put them in camps - or prisons, you choice - as long as we rubber-stamp them on a "case-by-case basis"? That actually works."

OOC disclaimer again: Araraukarian stance does not reflect my RL opinions on the issues. Nor does official Araraukarian stance fully match what the acting ambassador says. :P
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Kenmoria
Senator
 
Posts: 4951
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:42 am

(OOC: In your second ‘mandates’ clause, ‘normal conditions’ are not something to which a return is desirable, for refugees fleeing genocide. Any person escaping from war would likely not wish to return to what is normal for them.)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Araraukar
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Posts: 13592
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:15 am

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: In your second ‘mandates’ clause, ‘normal conditions’ are not something to which a return is desirable, for refugees fleeing genocide. Any person escaping from war would likely not wish to return to what is normal for them.)

OOC: Though, "normal conditions" would presumably not involve active attempts to kill them, given that they hadn't been killed up until fleeing the nation? I mean, if genocide was ongoing for like generations, it's unlikely you'd have survived (and the nagging voice at the back of my head wants to point out that at least some Jews survived in Nazi Germany by "hiding in plain sight", so it's technically not impossible) to be alive to suddenly need to flee, or you'd have to have been so good at hiding that you wouldn't need to suddenly flee... Basically, something needed to have changed.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Kenmoria
Senator
 
Posts: 4951
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:34 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: In your second ‘mandates’ clause, ‘normal conditions’ are not something to which a return is desirable, for refugees fleeing genocide. Any person escaping from war would likely not wish to return to what is normal for them.)

OOC: Though, "normal conditions" would presumably not involve active attempts to kill them, given that they hadn't been killed up until fleeing the nation? I mean, if genocide was ongoing for like generations, it's unlikely you'd have survived (and the nagging voice at the back of my head wants to point out that at least some Jews survived in Nazi Germany by "hiding in plain sight", so it's technically not impossible) to be alive to suddenly need to flee, or you'd have to have been so good at hiding that you wouldn't need to suddenly flee... Basically, something needed to have changed.

(OOC: However, anyone fleeing from conditions included in this proposal most likely wouldn’t want return to normal conditions, even if these entailed mere hostility rather than active genocide.)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13592
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: However, anyone fleeing from conditions included in this proposal most likely wouldn’t want return to normal conditions, even if these entailed mere hostility rather than active genocide.)

OOC: Well yeah, but that's kinda the point Araraukar has in IC: if it is safe where you live, just because it's unpleasant (or at least less pleasant than somewhere else), isn't a good enough reason to get the refugee status.

Reason why Araraukar doesn't want "refugees" is that to call it a welfare state is to dramatically understate how good a law-abiding citizen has it. And obviously they want to keep it that way. They're also trying to actively bring down the population numbers (encouraging childlessness, but also making sure all children born have a good life, good home, etc.), so they don't want more people.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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