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[BEST REPEAL DRAFT] Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy

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Attempted Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 653
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Attempted Socialism » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:51 pm

Cowardly Pacifists wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:*snip*

Briefly: I do consider it a victory that SL acknowledged being mistaken when he accused that clause of rule breaking. I never sought to convince him of the merits or that it was an argument worth accepting; only that it wasn’t illegal to make the argument.

I took that acknowledgment as an opportunity for deescalation and, without altering the thrust of the arguments made in the repeal, moderated the other objectionable clauses and language so they made the same points but with more weasily words and phrases.

So the victory here is that you're allowed to make IC attacks on transgender people, yet you try to seem hurt when people recognise your actions as indistinguishable from transphobia (And, indeed, your own justification being "Nationstates needs a villain")? I don't think it's namecalling to say that everything you've done here has been basically identical to what one would expect of a pseudointellectual transphobe - that was one of my points; I genuinely cannot tell from your actions which you are.
You chose to attack transgender people with what you explicitly acknowledged were lies, misrepresentations and exaggerations. Is it any wonder, then, that people might pay attention to your actions, rather than whatever legal cases you claim to have been involved in?
If you have a non-transphobic point to make, I'd suggest making it in a way where you do not burn bridges you might want to keep. I gave you two ways to convince me that while your mistakes aren't honest, you're not a transphobe. I'll just note that you so far have chosen not to respond to them, except to hide behind the veneer of an IC entity believing what you, the OOC person, wants them to.

Second, you didn't actually resolve the illegalities in your second draft. As I enumerated, several clauses are still as flawed as when several GenSec members helpfully adviced you to steer clear of the HM rule.


Represented in the World Assembly by
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Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
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Cowardly Pacifists
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1457
Founded: Dec 12, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cowardly Pacifists » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:04 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Cowardly Pacifists wrote:Briefly: I do consider it a victory that SL acknowledged being mistaken when he accused that clause of rule breaking. I never sought to convince him of the merits or that it was an argument worth accepting; only that it wasn’t illegal to make the argument.

I took that acknowledgment as an opportunity for deescalation and, without altering the thrust of the arguments made in the repeal, moderated the other objectionable clauses and language so they made the same points but with more weasily words and phrases.

So the victory here is that you're allowed to make IC attacks on transgender people
That’s... obviously not what I said.

Your attacks are getting a bit personal and defamatory.
Last edited by Cowardly Pacifists on Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Great Boom
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 111
Founded: Oct 03, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Great Boom » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:18 pm

OOC I support the submission of this repeal, and I want to see the best possible argument made for repeal. That way, when repeal gets buried by voters, ATHT will have an even stronger mandate, and its opponents will have nothing substantive to gripe about.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13592
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:19 am

Cowardly Pacifists wrote:Your namecalling

OOC: If you believe I have even once called you something bad, please report that post in moderation. I have called out your words and actions as what they appear to be and what they make you appear to be. If you'd like to prove me wrong, the choices of action to do so have been outlined for you by others. You can claim to be the greatest trans rights advocate in RL, but here your actions speak for the opposite.

I did post a repeal knowing that I was making charged, misleading arguments of a kind that nations of a certain persuasion could rally around as a pretext for removing protections for a vulnerable group.

From OSRS: "When in doubt, a simple guideline is 'Don't Be A Dick'." So, once more, if you stopped intentionally attempting to lie ("misleading arguments") in an offensive manner ("charged"), you wouldn't be in trouble with me or GenSec or others.

Perhaps, for the time being, the goblins could pursue their other interests and let this one be (for now...).

Actually doing that would salvage a lot of your credibility, but I won't be holding my breath while waiting to see that.

Cowardly Pacifists wrote:Your attacks are getting a bit personal and defamatory.

Going full martyr isn't helping your case. If you believe people are flaming you, report their posts. I'm sure you'll find that we aren't flaming you, though, but rather calling your actions and words bad things - attacking the message instead of the person, which is how this forum operates.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Attempted Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 653
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Attempted Socialism » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:56 am

Cowardly Pacifists wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:So the victory here is that you're allowed to make IC attacks on transgender people
That’s... obviously not what I said.
Oh sorry, I must have turned on the Dogwhistle-to-English translator and it picked up your arguments.
If you're not trying to attack transgender people, why act in a way where most people think you are for the sake of playing the Devil's advocate? Sure you might think you have some principled fight against GenSec over HM, but your vehicle for that is a series of arguments you state are wrong, just for the sake of argument.
Your attacks are getting a bit personal and defamatory.
Where? I attacked your arguments and the way you present them; if you don't personally agree with the arguments you're putting forth IC then naturally this cannot be personal. I haven't defamed your character either.


Represented in the World Assembly by
Ambassador and Chairperson of the Executive International Relations Committee
Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
Ivory Tower Critical-Realistic Sardonic Marxist Curmudgeon
Danish Political Scientist Seeks True Love Tenure
Specialities: State development; corruption; IR theory; Vodka
Experiences: Office-running; political campaigns; navigating byzantine academia politics

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Blueflarst
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Posts: 308
Founded: Aug 25, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Blueflarst » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 am

Meddlesome Goblins wrote:A stunty green form darts about the chamber shadows; beady yellow eyes peering out.
As the room lights darken a goblin wearing fine clothes (for a goblin) emerges into full view; a repeal draft, in his hand:


Repeal "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy"

*~*~*~*~*

Noting that Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy (GAR #467) was duly passed into law by the "Yes" vote of a majority of World Assembly nations;

Further noting that GAR #467 has been in effect for some time, allowing Member Nations to fully experience the fruits of the law;

Recognizing that, having been duly passed and enacted by Member States, at least some of the positive effects of GAR #467 would likely remain even if the law is repealed;

Reaffirming the many facts about the experience of transgender and gender non-binary people eloquently set forth in GAR #467;

Agreeing that it is appropriate for "all member-states to legalize hormone therapy for all consenting individuals;"

HOWEVER

1. Recalling that GAR #467 requires "all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy;"

(a) Convinced that such a mandate goes beyond GAR #467's purpose in recognizing a civil right by unduly imposing substantial socialized care obligations on member states and their populations;

(b) Confused by the repetitive obligation to provide an "easy-to-access way" to "access" hormone therapy; and

(c) Concerned that the ambiguous wording of this requirement has caused some nations to believe that they must actually provide hormone therapy, while other nations believe that providing a "way... to access" the therapy (such as through mandatory deportation to a more sympathetic country) is acceptable;

2. Recalling that GAR #467 forbids "any member-state from denying a transgender person access to hormone therapy as a punishment or as part of a punishment for a crime;" (emphasis added)

(a) Noting at once that while there is nothing inherently criminal about being transgendered or gender non-binary, people in those groups commit crimes just like people in any other group;

(b) Recognizing that many member nations have criminal justice systems that impose financial fines and incarceration as a consequence of criminal misdeeds;

(c) Further recognizing that the imposition of a fine or imprisonment may result in a person effectively being denied access to hormone therapy, either because they are physically unable to receive that treatment, or unable to afford it after being fined, or both;

(d) Aware that some individuals being punished for a crime may be too dangerous and unstable for a physician to safely administer hormone therapy;

(e) Believing that forbidding the denial of hormone therapy treatment "as a punishment" would have been appropriate, but by adding needless additional language GAR #467 overreaches and effectively prohibits many lawful and acceptable criminal justice practices simply because "as a part of" those punishments, a person would be denied "access" to hormone therapy;

3. Seeing these flaws in GAR #467, and recognizing that less-ambiguous and more-reasonable regulations are possible, the General Assembly hereby:

REPEALS GAR #467, "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy."

Repeal "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy"

*~*~*~*~*

Noting that Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy (GAR #467) was duly passed into law by the "Yes" vote of a majority of World Assembly nations;

Further noting that GAR #467 has been in effect for some time, allowing Member Nations to fully experience the fruits of the law;

Recognizing that, having been duly passed and enacted by Member States, at least some of the positive effects of GAR #467 will remain even if the law is repealed;

Reaffirming the many facts about the experience of transgender and gender non-binary people eloquently set forth in GAR #467;

Agreeing that it is appropriate for "all member-states to legalize hormone therapy for all consenting individuals;"

HOWEVER

1. Recalling that GAR #467 requires "all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy;"

(a) Convinced that such a mandate goes beyond GAR #467's purpose in recognizing a civil right by unduly imposing substantial socialized care obligations on member states and their populations;

(b) Concerned that the ambiguous wording of this requirement has caused some nations to believe that they must actually provide hormone therapy within their nation, while other nations believe that providing a "way... to access" the therapy (such as through 'government-assisted relocation' to a more sympathetic country where therapy is actually provided) would be acceptable;

2. Recalling that GAR #467 forbids "any member-state from denying a transgender person access to hormone therapy as a punishment or as part of a punishment for a crime;" (emphasis added)

(a) Noting at once that while there is nothing inherently criminal about being transgendered or gender non-binary, people in those groups commit crimes just like people in any other group;

(b) Aware that many member nations have criminal justice systems that impose financial fines and incarceration as a consequence of criminal misdeeds;

(c) Recognizing that the imposition of a fine or imprisonment could result in a person effectively being denied access to hormone therapy, if the terms of incarceration renders them physically unable to receive the treatment, or if the amount of the fine renders them unable to afford it, or both;

(d) Noting that, at present, many individuals require the supervision of a physician or other qualified health care professional to safely receive hormone therapy;

(e) Recognizing that some individuals being punished for a crime may be too dangerous and unstable for a physician to safely supervise their hormone therapy regimen;

(f) Believing that while forbidding member nations from intentionally denying hormone therapy treatment as a punishment could have been appropriate, GAR #467 overreaches by restricting the degree of many lawful and acceptable criminal justice practices simply because "as a part of" those punishments a person would be physically or financially unable to access hormone therapy;

3. Seeing these flaws in GAR #467, and recognizing that less-ambiguous and more-reasonable regulations are possible, the General Assembly hereby:

REPEALS GAR #467, "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy."

Cani be allowed to send this draft several times to the World Assembly?
I believe you would like to be asked
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Kenmoria
Senator
 
Posts: 4951
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:48 am

Blueflarst wrote:
Meddlesome Goblins wrote:A stunty green form darts about the chamber shadows; beady yellow eyes peering out.
As the room lights darken a goblin wearing fine clothes (for a goblin) emerges into full view; a repeal draft, in his hand:


Repeal "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy"

*~*~*~*~*

Noting that Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy (GAR #467) was duly passed into law by the "Yes" vote of a majority of World Assembly nations;

Further noting that GAR #467 has been in effect for some time, allowing Member Nations to fully experience the fruits of the law;

Recognizing that, having been duly passed and enacted by Member States, at least some of the positive effects of GAR #467 would likely remain even if the law is repealed;

Reaffirming the many facts about the experience of transgender and gender non-binary people eloquently set forth in GAR #467;

Agreeing that it is appropriate for "all member-states to legalize hormone therapy for all consenting individuals;"

HOWEVER

1. Recalling that GAR #467 requires "all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy;"

(a) Convinced that such a mandate goes beyond GAR #467's purpose in recognizing a civil right by unduly imposing substantial socialized care obligations on member states and their populations;

(b) Confused by the repetitive obligation to provide an "easy-to-access way" to "access" hormone therapy; and

(c) Concerned that the ambiguous wording of this requirement has caused some nations to believe that they must actually provide hormone therapy, while other nations believe that providing a "way... to access" the therapy (such as through mandatory deportation to a more sympathetic country) is acceptable;

2. Recalling that GAR #467 forbids "any member-state from denying a transgender person access to hormone therapy as a punishment or as part of a punishment for a crime;" (emphasis added)

(a) Noting at once that while there is nothing inherently criminal about being transgendered or gender non-binary, people in those groups commit crimes just like people in any other group;

(b) Recognizing that many member nations have criminal justice systems that impose financial fines and incarceration as a consequence of criminal misdeeds;

(c) Further recognizing that the imposition of a fine or imprisonment may result in a person effectively being denied access to hormone therapy, either because they are physically unable to receive that treatment, or unable to afford it after being fined, or both;

(d) Aware that some individuals being punished for a crime may be too dangerous and unstable for a physician to safely administer hormone therapy;

(e) Believing that forbidding the denial of hormone therapy treatment "as a punishment" would have been appropriate, but by adding needless additional language GAR #467 overreaches and effectively prohibits many lawful and acceptable criminal justice practices simply because "as a part of" those punishments, a person would be denied "access" to hormone therapy;

3. Seeing these flaws in GAR #467, and recognizing that less-ambiguous and more-reasonable regulations are possible, the General Assembly hereby:

REPEALS GAR #467, "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy."

Repeal "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy"

*~*~*~*~*

Noting that Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy (GAR #467) was duly passed into law by the "Yes" vote of a majority of World Assembly nations;

Further noting that GAR #467 has been in effect for some time, allowing Member Nations to fully experience the fruits of the law;

Recognizing that, having been duly passed and enacted by Member States, at least some of the positive effects of GAR #467 will remain even if the law is repealed;

Reaffirming the many facts about the experience of transgender and gender non-binary people eloquently set forth in GAR #467;

Agreeing that it is appropriate for "all member-states to legalize hormone therapy for all consenting individuals;"

HOWEVER

1. Recalling that GAR #467 requires "all member-states to have an affordable, easy-to-access way for its transgender population to access hormone therapy;"

(a) Convinced that such a mandate goes beyond GAR #467's purpose in recognizing a civil right by unduly imposing substantial socialized care obligations on member states and their populations;

(b) Concerned that the ambiguous wording of this requirement has caused some nations to believe that they must actually provide hormone therapy within their nation, while other nations believe that providing a "way... to access" the therapy (such as through 'government-assisted relocation' to a more sympathetic country where therapy is actually provided) would be acceptable;

2. Recalling that GAR #467 forbids "any member-state from denying a transgender person access to hormone therapy as a punishment or as part of a punishment for a crime;" (emphasis added)

(a) Noting at once that while there is nothing inherently criminal about being transgendered or gender non-binary, people in those groups commit crimes just like people in any other group;

(b) Aware that many member nations have criminal justice systems that impose financial fines and incarceration as a consequence of criminal misdeeds;

(c) Recognizing that the imposition of a fine or imprisonment could result in a person effectively being denied access to hormone therapy, if the terms of incarceration renders them physically unable to receive the treatment, or if the amount of the fine renders them unable to afford it, or both;

(d) Noting that, at present, many individuals require the supervision of a physician or other qualified health care professional to safely receive hormone therapy;

(e) Recognizing that some individuals being punished for a crime may be too dangerous and unstable for a physician to safely supervise their hormone therapy regimen;

(f) Believing that while forbidding member nations from intentionally denying hormone therapy treatment as a punishment could have been appropriate, GAR #467 overreaches by restricting the degree of many lawful and acceptable criminal justice practices simply because "as a part of" those punishments a person would be physically or financially unable to access hormone therapy;

3. Seeing these flaws in GAR #467, and recognizing that less-ambiguous and more-reasonable regulations are possible, the General Assembly hereby:

REPEALS GAR #467, "Affordable Transgender Hormone Therapy."

Cani be allowed to send this draft several times to the World Assembly?
I believe you would like to be asked

(OOC: Repeatedly sending the same draft to the WA without alteration is likely to be considered spam by the moderators or Gensec. Besides, much of the discussion here has focused on legality, so I don’t think that the draft has had enough development yet.)
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Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

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Bananaistan
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 2207
Founded: Apr 20, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bananaistan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:31 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:Cani be allowed to send this draft several times to the World Assembly?
I believe you would like to be asked

(OOC: Repeatedly sending the same draft to the WA without alteration is likely to be considered spam by the moderators or Gensec. Besides, much of the discussion here has focused on legality, so I don’t think that the draft has had enough development yet.)


OOC: The plagiarism rule is not simply that someone might "like to be asked". Using someone's work without their express permission posted on the forums is absolutely against the rules and will get you ejected from the WA.

And Kenmoria is quite correct about spamming the queue.
Delegation of the People's Republic of Bananaistan to the World Assembly
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There was the Pope and John F. Kennedy and Jack Charlton and the three of them were staring me in the face.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13592
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:10 pm

Bananaistan wrote:OOC: The plagiarism rule is not simply that someone might "like to be asked". Using someone's work without their express permission posted on the forums is absolutely against the rules and will get you ejected from the WA.

And Kenmoria is quite correct about spamming the queue.

OOC: Or gotten via telegram, which the mods can then confirm (though the specific TG ID will need to be provided for them). Permission posted on the forums is faster and doesn't bother the moderators.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14346
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:16 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Bananaistan wrote:OOC: The plagiarism rule is not simply that someone might "like to be asked". Using someone's work without their express permission posted on the forums is absolutely against the rules and will get you ejected from the WA.

And Kenmoria is quite correct about spamming the queue.

OOC: Or gotten via telegram, which the mods can then confirm (though the specific TG ID will need to be provided for them). Permission posted on the forums is faster and doesn't bother the moderators.

Forum is better, since we're the ones that have to flag down a mod.

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence and Chief Populist Elitist


User avatar
Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13592
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:35 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:Forum is better, since we're the ones that have to flag down a mod.

OOC: Of course it's better, but I meant that it's possible for a TG confirmation to work as passing a draft from one person to the other.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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