[DRAFT] Ban on Judicial Murder

[Araraukar]

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.

OOC: And yet, a resolution only does what a resolution says it does. If it had meant half a year, it would have said half a year. It's a reasonable reading to apply six months as six months, whether or not it's half a year.

Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

That's why I'm asking, because various things in Finnish systems calculate months as 7x4 days, which only February matches (on most years). And also, if it was translated into Finnish, it would still be kuusi kuukautta, and the same issue would continue, given that the Araraukarian year has kolmetoista kuukautta instead of kaksitoista.

This is all fairly pointless, though, because if you're right, the proposal whose thread this is, is illegal for duplication, and also there's no way for you to change my mind regardless of what arguments you use, as long as the relevant resolution refers to a number of months rather than half a year.

[Wallenburg]

OOC: So how do they? Like Real Life? Where "6 months" can mean 6x4x7 days which is 168 days. But if you have March-August in RL, that's 184 days. Feb-July is 181 days. Unless it's a leap year when it's 182 days. So what do you use? GA measurements are translated into each nation's system, but by what measure are they translated here? Day? Hour? Second? Araraukar's Earth has a slightly shorter day than RL (because 2 moons don't slow the rotation down as much as one, when their mass is the same), but as the orbit around the Sun is the same, there are more days in a year. There are also more months - 13 to be exact (they count months by the moon that's closest to the planet).

So, which way do you count "6 months"?

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.
Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

[Araraukar]

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

OOC: It applies equally. It's six months. If you were right, then anything that exists in some nations but not others, would be unequal. Or nations that are very small versus nations that are bigger than anything in RL. Or nations with no coastline, or nations without elections - all the resolutions apply equally, but not all resolutions apply the same way, because nations are different.

A random example, GA #441 3.b., "Instituting regular inspections of water pipelines of manufacturing companies, especially of water plants, to find and prevent the use of faulty or corroded piping, contamination of water, or the spillage of massive volumes of water" - if you were right then even nations that have no water pipelines (think past tech or very desperate developing nation) would have to institute regular inspections (and presumably have inspectors).

[Wallenburg]

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

OOC: It applies equally. It's six months. If you were right, then anything that exists in some nations but not others, would be unequal. Or nations that are very small versus nations that are bigger than anything in RL. Or nations with no coastline, or nations without elections - all the resolutions apply equally, but not all resolutions apply the same way, because nations are different.

A random example, GA #441 3.b., "Instituting regular inspections of water pipelines of manufacturing companies, especially of water plants, to find and prevent the use of faulty or corroded piping, contamination of water, or the spillage of massive volumes of water" - if you were right then even nations that have no water pipelines (think past tech or very desperate developing nation) would have to institute regular inspections (and presumably have inspectors).

I said "at least on paper". Your interpretation of "month" makes the resolution inherently unequal even on paper, because "month" ceases to be a standard unit of time and becomes entirely variable.

[Araraukar]

I said "at least on paper". Your interpretation of "month" makes the resolution inherently unequal even on paper, because "month" ceases to be a standard unit of time and becomes entirely variable.

OOC: Just like anything referring days or months or years, because they depend on rotation and orbits and all that. This usually gets pointed out in drafting stage, and I'm sorry for failing to do so. However, I am not above taking advantage of it. (If you're really against executions in IC, too, you'll be happy to know that it's a very rare thing in Araraukar to begin with, and the resolution we're arguing about, wouldn't have had much effect even if it functioned as a total ban.)

Now, if at least 2 (or 3?) more GenSec peeps agree with you - because creative compliance is rarely (though sometimes it is) relied on in their decisions - then this proposal is illegal for duplication, and should be abandoned. So, make a proper Legal Challenge if you really believe it's duplication and UM can concentrate on something else but reading our bickering.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Why is a month determined by the phases of the moon? It isn't in the international civil calendar. Why is a Julian year, which is exactly 31,557,600 times the amount of time it takes for 9,192,631,770 cycles of radiation associated with the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium-133 atom, dependent on the amount of time it takes for the Earth to orbit the sun?

[Araraukar]

Why is a month determined by the phases of the moon?

OOC: If you don't know history well enough to know the answer, I'm just going to tell you to go to Wikipedia and educate yourself.

[United Massachusetts]

I said "at least on paper". Your interpretation of "month" makes the resolution inherently unequal even on paper, because "month" ceases to be a standard unit of time and becomes entirely variable.

OOC: Just like anything referring days or months or years, because they depend on rotation and orbits and all that. This usually gets pointed out in drafting stage, and I'm sorry for failing to do so. However, I am not above taking advantage of it. (If you're really against executions in IC, too, you'll be happy to know that it's a very rare thing in Araraukar to begin with, and the resolution we're arguing about, wouldn't have had much effect even if it functioned as a total ban.)

Now, if at least 2 (or 3?) more GenSec peeps agree with you - because creative compliance is rarely (though sometimes it is) relied on in their decisions - then this proposal is illegal for duplication, and should be abandoned. So, make a proper Legal Challenge if you really believe it's duplication and UM can concentrate on something else but reading our bickering.

OOC: It applies equally. It's six months. If you were right, then anything that exists in some nations but not others, would be unequal. Or nations that are very small versus nations that are bigger than anything in RL. Or nations with no coastline, or nations without elections - all the resolutions apply equally, but not all resolutions apply the same way, because nations are different.

A random example, GA #441 3.b., "Instituting regular inspections of water pipelines of manufacturing companies, especially of water plants, to find and prevent the use of faulty or corroded piping, contamination of water, or the spillage of massive volumes of water" - if you were right then even nations that have no water pipelines (think past tech or very desperate developing nation) would have to institute regular inspections (and presumably have inspectors).

I said "at least on paper". Your interpretation of "month" makes the resolution inherently unequal even on paper, because "month" ceases to be a standard unit of time and becomes entirely variable.

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

OOC: It applies equally. It's six months. If you were right, then anything that exists in some nations but not others, would be unequal. Or nations that are very small versus nations that are bigger than anything in RL. Or nations with no coastline, or nations without elections - all the resolutions apply equally, but not all resolutions apply the same way, because nations are different.

A random example, GA #441 3.b., "Instituting regular inspections of water pipelines of manufacturing companies, especially of water plants, to find and prevent the use of faulty or corroded piping, contamination of water, or the spillage of massive volumes of water" - if you were right then even nations that have no water pipelines (think past tech or very desperate developing nation) would have to institute regular inspections (and presumably have inspectors).

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.
Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

Why is a month determined by the phases of the moon? It isn't in the international civil calendar. Why is a Julian year, which is exactly 31,557,600 times the amount of time it takes for 9,192,631,770 cycles of radiation associated with the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium-133 atom, dependent on the amount of time it takes for the Earth to orbit the sun?

On top of that, Ara's argument requires that any use of "month" violates GAR#2, which requires that international law apply equally, at least on paper, to all member states. This cannot be the case if a given amount of time in a resolution changes based on the calendar conventions of member states.

OOC: It applies equally. It's six months. If you were right, then anything that exists in some nations but not others, would be unequal. Or nations that are very small versus nations that are bigger than anything in RL. Or nations with no coastline, or nations without elections - all the resolutions apply equally, but not all resolutions apply the same way, because nations are different.

A random example, GA #441 3.b., "Instituting regular inspections of water pipelines of manufacturing companies, especially of water plants, to find and prevent the use of faulty or corroded piping, contamination of water, or the spillage of massive volumes of water" - if you were right then even nations that have no water pipelines (think past tech or very desperate developing nation) would have to institute regular inspections (and presumably have inspectors).

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.

OOC: And yet, a resolution only does what a resolution says it does. If it had meant half a year, it would have said half a year. It's a reasonable reading to apply six months as six months, whether or not it's half a year.

Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

That's why I'm asking, because various things in Finnish systems calculate months as 7x4 days, which only February matches (on most years). And also, if it was translated into Finnish, it would still be kuusi kuukautta, and the same issue would continue, given that the Araraukarian year has kolmetoista kuukautta instead of kaksitoista.

This is all fairly pointless, though, because if you're right, the proposal whose thread this is, is illegal for duplication, and also there's no way for you to change my mind regardless of what arguments you use, as long as the relevant resolution refers to a number of months rather than half a year.

I'm RP-wise in December 2001, so yeah, it would be an RL reference.

OOC
Or, as in this context it's referring to actions taken (or not taken) by the GA at a RL date, possibly Meta-gamimg...

“Not the most unusual ambassador I’ve seen here, but rather close.”

(OOC: I think referring to ‘September 2018’ is an RL reference.)

I'm RP-wise in December 2001, so yeah, it would be an RL reference.

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

“Not the most unusual ambassador I’ve seen here, but rather close.”

(OOC: I think referring to ‘September 2018’ is an RL reference.)

OOC: So how do they? Like Real Life? Where "6 months" can mean 6x4x7 days which is 168 days. But if you have March-August in RL, that's 184 days. Feb-July is 181 days. Unless it's a leap year when it's 182 days. So what do you use? GA measurements are translated into each nation's system, but by what measure are they translated here? Day? Hour? Second? Araraukar's Earth has a slightly shorter day than RL (because 2 moons don't slow the rotation down as much as one, when their mass is the same), but as the orbit around the Sun is the same, there are more days in a year. There are also more months - 13 to be exact (they count months by the moon that's closest to the planet).

So, which way do you count "6 months"?

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.
Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

That's not how units work in the GA and you fucking know it.

OOC: So how do they? Like Real Life? Where "6 months" can mean 6x4x7 days which is 168 days. But if you have March-August in RL, that's 184 days. Feb-July is 181 days. Unless it's a leap year when it's 182 days. So what do you use? GA measurements are translated into each nation's system, but by what measure are they translated here? Day? Hour? Second? Araraukar's Earth has a slightly shorter day than RL (because 2 moons don't slow the rotation down as much as one, when their mass is the same), but as the orbit around the Sun is the same, there are more days in a year. There are also more months - 13 to be exact (they count months by the moon that's closest to the planet).

So, which way do you count "6 months"?

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

OOC: You also require people to be stoned to death for various things, or getting drowned, so you've basically broken your own laws.

Also I think it's considered poor form to post on the same thread with both your main acc and a puppet, especially when you use the puppet to agree with your main.

OOC: I love how when I propose a wildly controversial resolution, y'all find this to be the most interesting aspect of it.

[Marxist Germany]

"As my nation has recently abolished capital punishment, I wholeheartedly support this proposal."

[Araraukar]

OOC: I love how when I propose a wildly controversial resolution, y'all find this to be the most interesting aspect of it.

OOC: It's a fight over your current proposal's legality. If I'm right, your proposal's basic idea is legal - still a bad idea, IMO, but legal - and if they're right, it's illegal for duplication. If the rest of GenSec agrees with Wally and BA, then this is illegal, but the legality decision won't affect my RP anyway for the reasons I already explained. So... this will likely get ruled illegal, and whether you want to fight the decision, is up to you.

Edit because I can't type. Need to go eat something...

[-Astoria]

Mailing address: 14 Stamford Av, Central, Footscray, ACT 10000, Federal Republic of Astoria
Telephone: +7-(0)10-888-8332 | Email: inquiries@foreignaffairs.gov

---

From the Desk of the Secretary of Foreign Affairs
Sunday, July 21, 2019 [21-07-2019]

---

On behalf of Astoria, we hereby support this proposal at hand, and passing it will be a step in the right direction for justice.

May the day break,

Neil Gamble
Secretary of Foreign Affairs

[The Christian God]

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

OOC: You also require people to be stoned to death for various things, or getting drowned, so you've basically broken your own laws.

Also I think it's considered poor form to post on the same thread with both your main acc and a puppet, especially when you use the puppet to agree with your main.

I am not bound by my own law. Its the privilege of being the Christian Almighty. You get your sacrament and to eat it, too.

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

[Liberimery]

OOC: You also require people to be stoned to death for various things, or getting drowned, so you've basically broken your own laws.

Also I think it's considered poor form to post on the same thread with both your main acc and a puppet, especially when you use the puppet to agree with your main.

I am not bound by my own law. Its the privilege of being the Christian Almighty. You get your sacrament and to eat it, too.

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

Should reread your own commandment then. The commandment uses the Hebrew word for “Murder”. There is a separate word for killing that would imply that you understood that some killing of humans is necessary.

[Araraukar]

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

OOC: My apologies, it's usually Wallenburg who makes those kinds of accounts.

[Catsfern]

Honestly I wouldn't mind some reasonable restrictions on the death penalty like determining what crimes can or cant be punished with death, but an outright ban is just too far

[Araraukar]

Honestly I wouldn't mind some reasonable restrictions on the death penalty like determining what crimes can or cant be punished with death, but an outright ban is just too far

OOC: There already are insane restrictions on it. Haven't you noticed people on this thread claiming that it's already been banned?

[Attempted Socialism]

Honestly I wouldn't mind some reasonable restrictions on the death penalty like determining what crimes can or cant be punished with death, but an outright ban is just too far

OOC: There already are insane restrictions on it. Haven't you noticed people on this thread claiming that it's already been banned?

OOC: I admit I haven't been following that closely, but I haven't seen that claim, no. Rather, the claims I've seen (And made myself) is that a legal execution is "merely" nigh-impossible as there's a board (After all other avenues of appeal have been exhausted, which could be interpreted as a stay of execution as long as the convict doesn't appeal to their last option) who has to validate the judgement in such a way that there are ample opportunities for defence to throw any doubt on the verdict, and even if the judgement stands (Which it almost certainly won't), there is a single day on which to carry out the execution.
It's not banned, just impossible to do legally.
As such I don't actually think there's a contradiction between this and the other resolution: One doesn't ban, one intends to. The effect is the same de facto, but not de jure.

[Araraukar]

OOC: I admit I haven't been following that closely, but I haven't seen that claim, no.

OOC: See posts by Wallenburg on this thread. Pages 1 and 2.

The effect is the same de facto, but not de jure.

And yet Wallenburg (and possibly BA) argue that this proposal is illegal for duplication.

[The Christian God]

I am not bound by my own law. Its the privilege of being the Christian Almighty. You get your sacrament and to eat it, too.

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

Should reread your own commandment then. The commandment uses the Hebrew word for “Murder”. There is a separate word for killing that would imply that you understood that some killing of humans is necessary.

I am exceedingly familiar with my own law. It isn't My fault that Moses fellow can't transcribe properly. I gave you mortals free will, and what do you decide to do with it? Start thinking about what to eat for dinner rather than listen to My instructions. I should never have given you free will.

[American Pere Housh]

"The presumption of the nation of United Massachusetts to dictate how we as sovereign nations enact justice against those who wrong their fellow citizens in the most heinous and disturbing ways, we decry as despicable. The death penalty is not intended to deter others from committing acts of violence, as prison equally clearly does not achieve is. It is to permanently solve the individual as a problem. It is to prevent them being released back into the society they show no respect towards, and to prevent them repeating their acts of murder, rape, and other severe criminal behaviours. We have every right to weigh the crimes that impact our society and our people as we see fit, and to deliver the punishment which we agree fits the crime best.

"It is not for self-righteous crusaders of so-called morality to deny the rights of every sovereign nation's judiciary process, to deny justice, and to encourage the risk to wider society by permitting an impermanent and potentially escapable means of punishment to those who deserve death. The represented of United Massachusetts seems fixated upon the 'rights' of the criminal. We believe in the rights of their victims, and we have no right to allow certain people to live when by doing so there is a guarantee that others will die and suffer at their hands.

On behalf of the Senate and Freeborn Landholders of Ephyra, we reserve our right to execute criminals deserving of death, and wholeheartedly reject and condemn this proposal as nothing more than ignorance fuelled by a smug sense of superiority."

"Hear,Hear"

[United Massachusetts]

OOC: You also require people to be stoned to death for various things, or getting drowned, so you've basically broken your own laws.

Also I think it's considered poor form to post on the same thread with both your main acc and a puppet, especially when you use the puppet to agree with your main.

I am not bound by my own law. Its the privilege of being the Christian Almighty. You get your sacrament and to eat it, too.

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

Well, surely Lord, it must not be within your nature, or remotely conceivable, for you to do evil. It would a contradiction in terms.

[Araraukar]

Well, surely Lord, it must not be within your nature, or remotely conceivable, for you to do evil. It would a contradiction in terms.

Oh it's evil enough, just look at all the parasites that exist in nature.

[The Christian God]

I am not bound by my own law. Its the privilege of being the Christian Almighty. You get your sacrament and to eat it, too.

OoC: My main account never posted in this thread.

Well, surely Lord, it must not be within your nature, or remotely conceivable, for you to do evil. It would a contradiction in terms.

Do not presume to think you can understand My nature, for it is beyond your ken. Suffice it to say that, when I do something, its not evil. So do as I say, not as I do. And I say stop executing people. I made sure you were beyond that sort of thing when I gave you functional modern society.

[Araraukar]

And I say stop executing people.

Or you'll what, kill us? That's your M.O. according to Bible. You're not worth respect if you demand more from your followers than you're capable of yourself.

[The Christian God]

And I say stop executing people.

Or you'll what, kill us? That's your M.O. according to Bible. You're not worth respect if you demand more from your followers than you're capable of yourself.

I don't have to follow my own rules. Divine privilege. Besides, I won't kill you, I shall Judge you.