[DRAFT] Ban on Judicial Murder

[Wallenburg]

Yes, really. The co-author of Preventing the Execution of Innocents has said as much.

OOC: Then they should've actually written it into the resolution. A reasonable reading of the text shows there's no ban, just restrictions.

Sorry, but you're just wrong. The only reasonable interpretation finds that the regulations overlap such that member states can never execute without violating one or another regulation. Observe:

1) It requires member states to prove that additional evidence, true or false, could not arise to "cast doubt on the guilt of the defendant for any charge which could carry a capital sentence". This goes beyond even the standard of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt", a standard not mandated for any court under extant World Assembly legislation. By requiring member states to demonstrate proof of guilt beyond any doubt, this clause alone fully prohibits capital punishment. The nature of reality always leaves room for doubt in all things, even if incredibly remote.

2) The eighth clause, in conjunction with an element of the fifth clause, once again fully bans capital punishment. The fifth clause requires member states to, following a guilty verdict at trial, grant the defense six months to review evidence, and grant the Capital Cases division another six months after that for the same reason, before carrying out any execution. However, the eighth clause also provides that trial certification by the Capital Cases division expires after one year, and that after such expiration member states may not perform capital punishment upon the convicted criminal.

3) The same clause also states that member states may not execute any convicted criminals that have not "exhausted all available appeals". This restriction once again effectively bans capital punishment, as it permits convicted criminals to simply not pursue an appellate verdict and thereby avoid execution indefinitely.

Not to mention the explicit ban on capital punishment in < 1 million pop nations, the ban on extradition to states that might exercise capital punishment on the extradited criminal, and the ban on exercising capital punishment upon rapists, murderers, traitors, and serial criminals.

[Araraukar]

Not to mention the explicit ban on capital punishment in < 1 million pop nations

OOC: *shrug* Araraukar has an IC population a bit over two billion. That'd still be about 2000 people executable a year.

Is it stupid and unfair to small nations? Of course it is. But it's not a ban, and if you were correct, then this particular proposal would be illegal for duplication. Which is it?

[Aclion]

Capital punishment is already banned. Duplication is bad.

It's not banned dejure, just so impractical that executions never actually take place. If needed duplication can be easily bypassed by prohibiting death sentences.

[Catsfern]

From the low activity on this thread combined with the problems with the draft itself even if this is submitted and found legal I don’t see it gaining enough support to go to vote.

[Kyrgwalaey]

"Prohibits any member-state from executing any individual within its jurisdiction as a form of criminal punishment,"

"Asserting that such practices contravene a basic respect for the fundamental dignity of all persons, in that they make the very right to live conditional, instead of acknowledging it as a basic human freedom,"

"Noting, further, that judicial murder is bad policy, in that there is little evidence to prove that it deters crime at all, only draws out the frustrations of crime victims by long legal processes, and offers no opportunities for rehabilitation,"

You do realize that, murderers and rapists violate and even take away that very right to live, and can still keep theirs? Maybe the point isn't to deter crime, its to punish those who have committed the most egregious crimes. Execution isn't for show.

Rehabilitation isn't really much of an option for those who've been sentenced to death, and how terrible of us for putting in extra work into the judicial system. May we also know how it "draws out the frustrations of crime victims by long legal processes"?

[Attempted Socialism]

Capital punishment is already banned. Duplication is bad.

It's not banned dejure, just so impractical that executions never actually take place. If needed duplication can be easily bypassed by prohibiting death sentences.

OOC I agree. It is banned in the most roundabout, bureaucratic and de facto (But not de jure!) way to ban what is in principle unbannable. As someone who has spent time studying institutions, this looks exactly like what happens when something cannot be prohibited in those exact words, but which must still be effectively done away with.

[Kenmoria]

From the low activity on this thread combined with the problems with the draft itself even if this is submitted and found legal I don’t see it gaining enough support to go to vote.

(OOC: It’s rather easy to make something go to vote with a good campaign, as only 6% of delegates are required. However, for a matter as controversial as this, I don’t think it will pass without alterations that would defeat the spirit. As far as I believe, capital punishment is already banned due to various requirements in ‘Preventing the Execution of Innocents’, so this proposal being defeated or passing won’t make much of a difference.)

[Dontriptia]

________

[Wallenburg]

Not to mention the explicit ban on capital punishment in < 1 million pop nations

OOC: *shrug* Araraukar has an IC population a bit over two billion. That'd still be about 2000 people executable a year.

Is it stupid and unfair to small nations? Of course it is. But it's not a ban, and if you were correct, then this particular proposal would be illegal for duplication. Which is it?

You ignored three whole paragraphs on that exact issue.

[Aclion]

As someone who has spent time studying institutions, this looks exactly like what happens when something cannot be prohibited in those exact words, but which must still be effectively done away with.

And that's exactly how it came about.

[Araraukar]

You ignored three whole paragraphs on that exact issue.

OOC Yes, because there is a reasonable reading that does not agree with yours. (Also you assume that 6 months equals half a year.)

Now, are you saying this is illegal for duplication (already done) or contradiction (WA can't ban what it explicitly allows)?

[Kenmoria]

(OOC: Capital punishment can only be done if: there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the verdict is wrong; the criminal exhausts all possible appeal processes within a year; the execution is carried out on the exact day which is one year after the sentencing, since a year must be provided for reexamination but there can’t be a delay of over a year; and the criminal has affected more than one person.

UM’s proposal, therefore can only ban an extremely tiny percentage of executions, since most are already prohibited. To me, this goes beyond acceptable duplication.)

[Wallenburg]

You ignored three whole paragraphs on that exact issue.

OOC Yes, because there is a reasonable reading that does not agree with yours.

There is not.

(Also you assume that 6 months equals half a year.)

I assume that because it does. That's how our units of time work.

Now, are you saying this is illegal for duplication (already done) or contradiction (WA can't ban what it explicitly allows)?

Duplication, obviously. You're the only one talking about contradiction with IA's execution ban.

[West Phoenicia]

After failed attempts to rid every nation of their right to exact justice how they see fit in punishing the most violent and heinous crimes with the death penalty. They are back again to take away our countires rights.

Wouldnt be paradise if nations who did not want the death penalty not to have it, without forcing others to follow suit.

West Phoenicia will oppose this bill as will all the other nations who value a nations freedoms to choose how it dishes out it's punishment. A vote in support is a vote of ignorance and shocking the freedoms from every nation.

1. Prohibits any member-state from executing any individual within its jurisdiction as a form of criminal punishment,

This point alone should even shake sheep into saying, I'm sorry enough is enough.

[Araraukar]

OOC Yes, because there is a reasonable reading that does not agree with yours.

There is not.

OOC: See Kenmoria's points above your post.

(Also you assume that 6 months equals half a year.)

I assume that because it does. That's how our units of time work.

In Real Life, yeah. In RL we have only one moon, so "month" is a fairly fixed unit.

Now, are you saying this is illegal for duplication (already done) or contradiction (WA can't ban what it explicitly allows)?

Duplication, obviously. You're the only one talking about contradiction with IA's execution ban.

Clauses 4 and 5 of that resolution clearly establish the procedure for prosecuting, sentencing and carrying out capital punishment. If this proposal seeks to destroy that process, that resolution should be repealed first.

[Kardashev III Civilization]

"This measure is absurd," the obelisk groans. "The state has every right to end the life of any person in its jurisdiction, in pursuit of the greater good. This is not to mention that your World Assembly already prohibits its members from actually carrying out executions at all. What a ridiculous attempt to please weak-stomached libertarians."

[Wallenburg]

There is not.

OOC: See Kenmoria's points above your post.

Kenmoria agrees this is illegal for duplication. Thanks for proving my point?

I assume that because it does. That's how our units of time work.

In Real Life, yeah. In RL we have only one moon, so "month" is a fairly fixed unit.

That's not how units work in the GA and you fucking know it.

Duplication, obviously. You're the only one talking about contradiction with IA's execution ban.

Clauses 4 and 5 of that resolution clearly establish the procedure for prosecuting, sentencing and carrying out capital punishment. If this proposal seeks to destroy that process, that resolution should be repealed first.

I don't see how that's a valid argument. That there is a committee with procedures for prohibiting execution doesn't preclude banning execution more straightforwardly.

[The Christian God]

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

[The Land of the Ephyral]

"The presumption of the nation of United Massachusetts to dictate how we as sovereign nations enact justice against those who wrong their fellow citizens in the most heinous and disturbing ways, we decry as despicable. The death penalty is not intended to deter others from committing acts of violence, as prison equally clearly does not achieve is. It is to permanently solve the individual as a problem. It is to prevent them being released back into the society they show no respect towards, and to prevent them repeating their acts of murder, rape, and other severe criminal behaviours. We have every right to weigh the crimes that impact our society and our people as we see fit, and to deliver the punishment which we agree fits the crime best.

"It is not for self-righteous crusaders of so-called morality to deny the rights of every sovereign nation's judiciary process, to deny justice, and to encourage the risk to wider society by permitting an impermanent and potentially escapable means of punishment to those who deserve death. The represented of United Massachusetts seems fixated upon the 'rights' of the criminal. We believe in the rights of their victims, and we have no right to allow certain people to live when by doing so there is a guarantee that others will die and suffer at their hands.

On behalf of the Senate and Freeborn Landholders of Ephyra, we reserve our right to execute criminals deserving of death, and wholeheartedly reject and condemn this proposal as nothing more than ignorance fuelled by a smug sense of superiority."

[New Bremerton]

"This measure is absurd," the obelisk groans. "The state has every right to end the life of any person in its jurisdiction, in pursuit of the greater good. This is not to mention that your World Assembly already prohibits its members from actually carrying out executions at all. What a ridiculous attempt to please weak-stomached libertarians."

Capital punishment is compatible with libertarianism and classical liberalism, Mx. Ambassador, namely the notion that every individual is responsible for their actions in life, given the freedoms and rights that are (or ought to be) afforded to them.

[Araraukar]

That's not how units work in the GA and you fucking know it.

OOC: So how do they? Like Real Life? Where "6 months" can mean 6x4x7 days which is 168 days. But if you have March-August in RL, that's 184 days. Feb-July is 181 days. Unless it's a leap year when it's 182 days. So what do you use? GA measurements are translated into each nation's system, but by what measure are they translated here? Day? Hour? Second? Araraukar's Earth has a slightly shorter day than RL (because 2 moons don't slow the rotation down as much as one, when their mass is the same), but as the orbit around the Sun is the same, there are more days in a year. There are also more months - 13 to be exact (they count months by the moon that's closest to the planet).

So, which way do you count "6 months"?

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

OOC: You also require people to be stoned to death for various things, or getting drowned, so you've basically broken your own laws.

Also I think it's considered poor form to post on the same thread with both your main acc and a puppet, especially when you use the puppet to agree with your main.

[Bears Armed]

That's not how units work in the GA and you fucking know it.

OOC: So how do they? Like Real Life? Where "6 months" can mean 6x4x7 days which is 168 days. But if you have March-August in RL, that's 184 days. Feb-July is 181 days. Unless it's a leap year when it's 182 days. So what do you use? GA measurements are translated into each nation's system, but by what measure are they translated here? Day? Hour? Second? Araraukar's Earth has a slightly shorter day than RL (because 2 moons don't slow the rotation down as much as one, when their mass is the same), but as the orbit around the Sun is the same, there are more days in a year. There are also more months - 13 to be exact (they count months by the moon that's closest to the planet).

So, which way do you count "6 months"?

OOC
They count it as however your system defines a length of time equivalent to half a [standard] Gregorian-Calendar year, since that is the most obvious meaning of "six months" in English.
Remember that even the fact that proposals must appear here in English is only an OOC convention, and that IC they might have been originally posted in other languages instead (e.g. Suomi; e.g. ii Ursine), so the wording that our ambassadors see here is often only a translation anyway...

[Kenmoria]

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

“Not the most unusual ambassador I’ve seen here, but rather close.”

(OOC: I think referring to ‘September 2018’ is an RL reference.)

[Union of Sovereign States and Republics]

I thought I was pretty clear on the whole Not Killing thing. You mortals always twist my Word.

“Not the most unusual ambassador I’ve seen here, but rather close.”

(OOC: I think referring to ‘September 2018’ is an RL reference.)

I'm RP-wise in December 2001, so yeah, it would be an RL reference.

[Bears Armed]

(OOC: I think referring to ‘September 2018’ is an RL reference.)

I'm RP-wise in December 2001, so yeah, it would be an RL reference.

OOC
Or, as in this context it's referring to actions taken (or not taken) by the GA at a RL date, possibly Meta-gamimg...