[ABANDONED] Repeal "Prevention Of Torture"

[Isla Pobre]

The author has asked me to point out that he is simultaneously trying to give pets more protection from torture than people. A stunning tale of legislative consistency.

Everyone knows that pets are better than people.

[Separatist Peoples]

The author has asked me to point out that he is simultaneously trying to give pets more protection from torture than people. A stunning tale of legislative consistency.

Everyone knows that pets are better than people.

"Still a terrible reason to allow torture."

[Lynwood]

My nation will vote for this repeal as people forget some of these prisoners are brutally violent and terrorists alike and my nation will never put the well being of these savages ahead of their victims well being so if this comes to vote whatever the outcome i will never put the well being of a savage ahead of the victims so as far as i'm concerned limited torture on these savages will remain an option

But torture doesn't work to extract information, and no amount of torture can bring back dead victims or replace missing limbs of those caught in a bomb blast.

All you're doing is inflicting pain as a punishment, which is pretty pointless to be honest.

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

[Separatist Peoples]

But torture doesn't work to extract information, and no amount of torture can bring back dead victims or replace missing limbs of those caught in a bomb blast.

All you're doing is inflicting pain as a punishment, which is pretty pointless to be honest.

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

"Vengeance is not justice. It serves no purpose beyond self-gratification. If that's what you want, get yourself some lotion and tissues."

[New Bremerton]

But torture doesn't work to extract information, and no amount of torture can bring back dead victims or replace missing limbs of those caught in a bomb blast.

All you're doing is inflicting pain as a punishment, which is pretty pointless to be honest.

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

[Caracasus]

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

Ooohhh I know the answer to the ticking time bomb one! I go back and kill hitler. Oh wait, sorry. Wrong totally unrealistic hypothetical that will never happen and that we shouldn't consider when legislating.

[Cretalia]

i'm in favor of this proposal and this draft seems fine. gets to the point without being needlessly long and complicated, like some drafts (and even some approved proposals)

[LiberNovusAmericae]

This is an early draft trying to repeal GAR #9, or "Prevention Of Torture." The draft is below. Please share any comments or concerns in the comments.

RECOGNIZING the sweeping rights granted in Prevention Of Torture,

HOPING that the WA will continue to legislate protections when in comes to torture,

AGREEING with GAR #9 that restrictions on torture should be enacted,

HOWEVER CONCERNED the lack of exemptions when it comes to issues of national security,

WORRIED that the lack of the exemption has led to many deaths, and will led to many deaths in the future,

The World Assembly,

REPEALS "Prevention Of Torture"

Also, would it be illegal to mention GAR #9 in the preamble? Are there any other legal issues?

"We are opposed ambassador. Legalizing torture for the sake of 'national security' would allow tyrannical regimes to use it as a pretense to torture dissidents and whistle blowers. This is not a power that any government should have. Information obtained by torture is also questionable at best."

[Sierra Lyricalia]

<calls terrorists "savages">
<wants to inflict torture on them in response>

"Hey pot, there's a kettle over here that wants to talk to you..."

[Hatzisland]

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

That is the intention of the plan. Do you think I should re-word it to make it more clear?

[Falcania]

Your absolutely right torture can never bring back the victims but it can make the victims surviving family member get justice for there loved ones... Do you want to tell a victim that there accused is living a life of luxury... Go ahead re victimise them again, makes you no better than the terrorist/savage

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

Christ knows the first thing to do in a ticking time bomb situation is to file paperwork for a court order and wait for a judge to process the form that allows you to use torture in the time-sensitive scenario.

[The New Nordic Union]

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

Christ knows the first thing to do in a ticking time bomb situation is to file paperwork for a court order and wait for a judge to process the form that allows you to use torture in the time-sensitive scenario.

OOC: Also, in a time sensitive situation, you could not torture for long... so the first anwer the person tortured gave you would be what you would have to go with. And everyone would know this. So the first anwer they give is going to be a lie, and you will be fooled, rendering torture even more uneffective than it is to begin with.

[Caracasus]

The 'there's a timebomb and you need to torture someone to find out where it is' is very silly indeed. Outside of 24 it doesn't happen and legislating as if it would is like passing a law to place all physicists under house arrest in case they invent a time machine and kill Hitler.

[Kenmoria]

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

That is the intention of the plan. Do you think I should re-word it to make it more clear?

(OOC: That is such a minutely small possibility that it really isn’t something for which it is worth legislating. Your proposal aims to repeal an important piece of legislation for an extremely rare possibility, and, as many players have said, I strongly advise you to come up with a different idea.)

[Hatzisland]

That is the intention of the plan. Do you think I should re-word it to make it more clear?

(OOC: That is such a minutely small possibility that it really isn’t something for which it is worth legislating. Your proposal aims to repeal an important piece of legislation for an extremely rare possibility, and, as many players have said, I strongly advise you to come up with a different idea.)

We will still go through with this, when we feel it is ready.

[Wallenburg]

The 'there's a timebomb and you need to torture someone to find out where it is' is very silly indeed. Outside of 24 it doesn't happen and legislating as if it would is like passing a law to place all physicists under house arrest in case they invent a time machine and kill Hitler.

This.

[New Bremerton]

Why torture criminals when you can simply execute them? You can stand up for victims' rights by voting to repeal Preventing the Execution of Innocents. The delegation from Tinfect already has their repeal proposal on standby.

OOC: Alan Dershowitz and Sam Harris make a very compelling case for torture as a last resort pending the exhaustion of more humane and otherwise effective methods of interrogation, a court order and a very specific "ticking time bomb" scenario. I have to say I'm convinced. I might just vote for.

That is the intention of the plan. Do you think I should re-word it to make it more clear?

Go for it, although I don't believe this will lessen opposition in any way. It would be interesting to hear the responses from delegates to the idea of a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

Christ knows the first thing to do in a ticking time bomb situation is to file paperwork for a court order and wait for a judge to process the form that allows you to use torture in the time-sensitive scenario.

OOC: Fair point, though it really depends how much time exactly. An hour? A day? A week? A month?

OOC: Also, in a time sensitive situation, you could not torture for long... so the first anwer the person tortured gave you would be what you would have to go with. And everyone would know this. So the first anwer they give is going to be a lie, and you will be fooled, rendering torture even more uneffective than it is to begin with.

OOC: Depends how long exactly and how many answers they give. It's kind of like winning the lottery. 99% of the time they'll spout random nonsense and 1% of the time they'll disclose the actual location of the bomb. 1% is still a chance, however infinitesimally small.

At this point, I might probably abstain. I hope the OP has a replacement ready to prevent abuses if this passes. I believe Harris was arguing from a purely philosophical standpoint. He was posing a moral dilemma in the same vein as the train tracks dilemma and whether you should throw the lever and save five lives or not throw it and save only one. Dershowitz was actually advocating public policy.

[Separatist Peoples]

Go for it, although I don't believe this will lessen opposition in any way. It would be interesting to hear the responses from delegates to the idea of a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

Ooc: we'd laugh at you. Dedicated people withstand torture a the time. If theres a pressing deadline, all they have to do is wait it out, which gives them a goal. And once you have a goal, it's not a battle of attrition anymore. This is an idiotic defense.

[Marxist Germany]

Go for it, although I don't believe this will lessen opposition in any way. It would be interesting to hear the responses from delegates to the idea of a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

Ooc: we'd laugh at you. Dedicated people withstand torture a the time. If theres a pressing deadline, all they have to do is wait it out, which gives them a goal. And once you have a goal, it's not a battle of attrition anymore. This is an idiotic defense.

OOC:Exactly

[Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar]

"Categorically opposed. The prevention of torture resolution is a fantastic step of progress in the right direction for the WA."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Guys, the title says "abandoned" for a reason...

[Marxist Germany]

"We are glad this resolution was abandoned and hope that the delegation from hatzisland learned a good lesson from this experience"