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[DRAFT] Terra Nullius Protection Act

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:02 pm

Clause 2: A general clause on the protections offered within Terra nullius, should such other protection resolutions be repealed. However, this clause requires member states be responsible in terra nullius' protection, by informing (whether through immediate law, or even other forms of government communication) nationals (citizens) and corporations of that member state, where applicable, of the consequences of their actions. Of course, a member state is not, necessarily*, culpable for their citizens or corporation action, for they are ultimately independent.

I don't get this. If the clause is supposed to do this, why does it not do that in the last section? Saying that someone must follow the law if it exists doesn't create a requirement to follow the law if it does not exist, which is the problem you are ostensibly solving.

Clause 3a) & b): Allows actions which the GA does not cover, but member state's law does cover, to hold those accountable within that state's legal system. This is only acceptable for actions done by, or on, that states citizens, corporations, assets, etc, it does not allow a member state's law to bring to trial any other member states citizens and corporations, unless they act in some way against that member's citizens, corporations, assets, etc. according to their law. Therefore demanding a degree of responsibility by a member state's for their citizens and corporations. Of course, this clause demands a degree of cooperation between states such as for extradition, but ultimately this is a national issue. For which this clause is under the assumption of a fair criminal trial (GA resolution #37) and extradition rules (GA resolution #147), and other forms of apparatus for removing inappropriate responses or, potential, corruption.

WA member nations could already do this. It's one of those implicit 10th amendment sort of things: if it isn't restricted, it is permitted. But let's assume for argument that this extraterroriality is the case. If there exists enforcement of crimes on that territory, is that not the exercise of a jurisdiction? And thus, given that having a dispute in the first place requires that there be people, the territory no longer is nobody's land?

After some thought, it occurred to me that this legislation can not condone forcing compliance with treatise based terra nullius agreements. For at least two reasons: 1) these treatises establish a land that isn't inherently no-ones as belonging to no-one. Technically they could include any land, the inhospitable as well as the hospitable. 2) It would mean national treaty becomes an international treaty, simply by demanding that any land that is recognised as terra nullius by any single nation, is counted as terra nullius to all nations, which is patently absurd.

Why is there this distinction between national treaty and international treaty? All treaties are international treaties. A treaty with yourself is a domestic law. The only exception is when the US deigned to make a treaty with Britain so to give itself more power under the treaties clause so to do something unconstitutional (also, it's hilarious). Nor does this follow. The promise of Bigtopia to not exercise jurisdiction over a certain place does not mean that nobody else can exercise jurisdiction. The same thing applies to a claim.

Clause 4a makes such positions, as a defence against that potential activity, to be null, and that such actions are fully culpable if against international or, with respect to clause 3, national law. Clause 4b may seem obsolete in terms of Section II, clause 4a & clause 1, however, certain resolutions may demand actions between jurisdictions to have treaty, therefore an extension of that resolution, provided in clause 1, does not alleviate the lack of treaty here (who can ratify for res nullius?).

Section 4(a) as written doesn't do this. Where are the section requiring the existence of a treaty? If such places exist, why is there not a default behaviour? Any resolution which requires the existence of a treaty between two nations, which are not necessarily WA member nations, would implicitly violate the meta gaming rule.

Notable that the TNPC, being the representative for species (non sapient and sapient), protected within terra nullius, may contest a claim if the respective claimant is in contravention to privileges given by WA law, as presented through Section II, clauses 1-4.

This power isn't granted to the TNPC explicitly. Moreover, there are no section markings in the text of the resolution.

Clause c only allows effective occupants (those living in or given power) of terra nullius to lay a contestation. For member A to do so, he would need to strip that individual of their statehood, and then place them into terra nullius, which would be in contravention to GA resolution #386, reducing statelessness. In addition to this, the resolution gives no statutes of limitations, as long as the action was within the claiming period, recognition is not a singular moment occasion, nation b could colonise the territory and nations A's individual bring it before a court, be rejected, and nation b's claim would retroactively be seen as valid and recognised.

Likewise, in a different scenario, if nation C colonised the territory and effectively placed their jurisdiction over that terra nullius. Yet did do some action to jeopardise their claim, whose action was then bought before the court and found to be in contravention to international law, their current colonisation could be retroactively unrecognised. Assuming that their action could be legitimately placed before their occupation, if before that period, it would simply be a violation of GA law under Section II, clause 1 & 2). If after colonisation, it would simply be violation of GA law.

I'm unconvinced any of this makes sense. The definition of terra nullius provided requires that nobody have a claim. If someone has a claim, then it definitionally isn't terra nullius and these provisions don't apply. Moreover, non-WA nations can occupy these areas. This proposal is completely silent as to how non-WA nations are to be handled.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kranostav
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Postby Kranostav » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:44 pm

Okay so heres a list of my issues in no particular order.

1) That any WA states' actions within terra nullius be consistent with prior & later supranational law, where applicable, as outlined by the WA, & this resolution.
2) That WA states protect those biomes & species, sapient & non-sapient, who utilise, & are located within terra nullius, as being accorded their respective dignities & rights as defined by the WA.

This is a pretty large brushstroke requiring WA states automatically enforce WA law and give rights to these random peoples. Would seem like expansionism as defined later in this proposal would be impossible because of this.
4) That WA states do not have compulsion to this resolution for terra nullius artificially created by WA, or non-WA, states, through independent treatise. While WA states recognising terra nullius, by said treatise, are to remain under compulsion to this resolution, concerning that territory.

It seems like this clause is intended to prevent abuse by states arbitrarily creating terrae nullius at will. While this is important, it also allows for states to simply not recognize legitimate terrae nullius if they don't want to.
5) That terra nullius, being de facto outside any national legal system or jurisdiction, shall be cause for the following to be struck as null & void for use in subverting, contravening or abusing judicial proceedings;

a) Terra nullius is used as a reason for exemption from the extent of law; both national & international.

b) Terra nullius is used as an exemption for the need of multinational treaty, between sovereign states, as demanded, or expected, by international law.

This would require a government to formally acknowledge said terra nullius to begin with, thus causing them to apply WA there as needed. However, I would presume that if they do not acknowledge them as terra nullius, but the terra nullius recognizes themselves as terna nullius it could create a situation in which law is very hard to enforce similar to that of Thailand and China.

Clause 7 forms a committee to help deal with this but there is no real legal way to side here. Especially since the resolution deals with how to claim TN but not how to create it under dispute.

Not really sure what this resolution is setting out to accomplish as Im not too convinced that the rights of peoples in Terra Nullius are really threatened or exist at all. Sure a nativist idea could be in play but Id argue that natives have sovereign control of their regions so in the case of a claim, it would be more of an invasion than a terra nullius issue.

Waiting on more input as time goes on.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:30 am

I’ll reply to both of these at a later point today, when I have some free time.
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Johanneslanden
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Postby Johanneslanden » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:20 am

Having previously approved this proposal, I have revoked that proposal after reading through it more thoroughly myself, and speaking with others about it.
My view is that it is a very good idea for a proposal, and that the proposal as it is has promise, but it is not yet at the stage where it is good enough to be passed as law. This could probably be changed by redrafting further, and taking into account the criticisms supplied by IA and others
I don't think it's ready as it is, but I would hope, should this fail to reach quorum, that you'll work more on it, and re-submit it again at a later date ^-^

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:19 am

I was going to make a large reply to the commentators, but I found it somewhat pointless. In the end all that would be achieved through this is a stalemate, while actual problems (such as word choice) were unchangeable, and shifted my mind to the need for further drafting.

It will probably be some time before I make larger changes, I’m quite busy. But it is definitely my intention to make clearer the things that have been misinterpretated. While further expanding the explanations for my own rationale.

Currently it will remain in drafting, will continue to be worked on, and eventually up to a standard where, everyone agrees, it can be put to vote.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Third Way Neoliberal
  4. Asperger
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  5. Graduated
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Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:57 am

Lower Nubia wrote:I was going to make a large reply to the commentators, but I found it somewhat pointless. In the end all that would be achieved through this is a stalemate, while actual problems (such as word choice) were unchangeable, and shifted my mind to the need for further drafting.

It will probably be some time before I make larger changes, I’m quite busy. But it is definitely my intention to make clearer the things that have been misinterpretated. While further expanding the explanations for my own rationale.

Currently it will remain in drafting, will continue to be worked on, and eventually up to a standard where, everyone agrees, it can be put to vote.

(OOC: As long as you don’t try to make everyone agree, this is a good plan. There will always be dissenters to any proposal, since none has ever passed with 100%. I recommend trying to improve until you have a clear supermajority of GA commentators agreeing that this is ready for submission.)
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:19 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:I was going to make a large reply to the commentators, but I found it somewhat pointless. In the end all that would be achieved through this is a stalemate, while actual problems (such as word choice) were unchangeable, and shifted my mind to the need for further drafting.

It will probably be some time before I make larger changes, I’m quite busy. But it is definitely my intention to make clearer the things that have been misinterpretated. While further expanding the explanations for my own rationale.

Currently it will remain in drafting, will continue to be worked on, and eventually up to a standard where, everyone agrees, it can be put to vote.

(OOC: As long as you don’t try to make everyone agree, this is a good plan. There will always be dissenters to any proposal, since none has ever passed with 100%. I recommend trying to improve until you have a clear supermajority of GA commentators agreeing that this is ready for submission.)


This is my intention, I'll work slowly on it, and make things clearer where possible.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    in Biochemistry
Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:23 am

“I am not sure that clause 3b makes grammatical sense. At the least, it is in a different form to 3a, which is unusual given that they are both subclauses of the same clause.”
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:38 am

Kenmoria wrote:“I am not sure that clause 3b makes grammatical sense. At the least, it is in a different form to 3a, which is unusual given that they are both subclauses of the same clause.”


I've slightly changed the draft, I've modified the less optimal word choices and spelling mistake (damn you treaties) and made clearer what each active clause is attempting to discern. Currently, it's very rough, but I'll slowly improve upon it and edit everything over the coming weeks. When I have more time.

Clause 3 a & b are changed to be following from each other from 3). So they should be at least flow cleanly between the clauses.
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Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 15th April, 2022

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Lislandia
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Postby Lislandia » Sat May 23, 2020 11:50 am

Lower Nubia and I have taken many of your comments and suggestions into consideration and have updated our proposal. Please provide us with any additional feedback, as we hope to place this up for quorum in the near future.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Sun May 24, 2020 12:51 am

The proposal is a tad verbose, although the title and category are both OK. Do as you please with my attempted rewording below; as ever, you may cite Tinhampton as a co-author if you think I've been really helpful, etc.

The big(ger) difference: I hardly know what the TNPC does, so I've removed it and replaced it with a simpler Clause 5 that encourages member states to "seek peaceful resolution" and recognise the rights of any potential inhabitants of terra nullius. What you see below is ~2,440 characters, or about half the character count of what you have right now (also known as "extremely close to the character limit" - you don't need to use every character you've got!):
The World Assembly,

Concerned that its past legislation on borders has focused too much on the territorial extent of member and non-member states without stopping to consider terra(e) nullius, zones not administrated by any sovereign entity, and

Believing that it has an obligation to admonish particularly reprehensible actions that exploit terra nullius in contravention of the spirit of its past legislation,

Hereby:
  1. Defines, for the purpose of this resolution, terra nullius as being either:
    1. territory which is not subject to any claims by sovereign states as a result of territorial dispute, OR
    2. territory which is inhabited by people not making any sovereign claim over it, under which no sovereign state claims jurisdiction,
  2. Requires member states to ensure that their actions in terra nullius are in compliance with all international legislation (whether passed before or after this resolution), and that they are not used as justification for evading their obligations under national or international law, including multinational treaties,
  3. Reminds member states that they are not responsible for the actions of their citizens or corporations that may occur within terra nullius unless they command or coerce such actions, in which case they must prosecute such entities to the full extent of domestic law where such cases cannot be brought up by international courts of law,
  4. Declares that any member state may claim and establish jurisdiction under terra nullius as defined in Article 1b, where that state has not previously infringed any international law within the claimed area and that area's sapient inhabitants do not legally contest such a claim,
  5. Encourages member states asserting their rights under Article 4 to seek peaceful resolution with rival claimants to the claimed terra nullius in question, and to respect the rights that the claimed area's local inhabitants hold under national and international law, and
  6. Clarifies that this resolution does not cover:
    1. airspace and nautical waters that are not under any sovereign state's control, such as international waters, nor
    2. terra nullius that is artificially created by any state under a multinational treaty (although member states must still follow their obligations under such a treaty).

Co-authored by Lislandia.
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Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715
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Lislandia
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Postby Lislandia » Thu May 28, 2020 5:18 am

Thank you for your contribution here, Tinhampton -- I appreciate how clear and concise you have made it whilst preserving the vast majority of the original draft. I will defer to Lower Nubia to discuss some of the finer points or offer clarification on any of the topics in question (e.g., the idea behind establishing the TNPC), but I think this works quite nicely.

The only omissions (aside from your removal of the TNPC) I noted were explicit references to the desire for this legislation to help eliminate potential loopholes and the call for WA states to protect life in terra nullius, though I suppose both of these are implied and therefore unnecessary. Again, I hope LN will weigh in here, but I'd be very interested to hear what others had to say about this particular iteration.

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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:17 pm

Following discussion with my co-authors, I will now be submitting this at some point in the future. What you see below is the current draft, which is exactly the same as my proposal from two months ago:
Image
Terra Nullius Preservation Act
A resolution to slash worldwide military spending.
Category: Global Disarmament
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Tinhampton

The World Assembly,

Concerned that its past legislation on borders has focused too much on the territorial extent of member and non-member states without stopping to consider terra(e) nullius, zones not administrated by any sovereign entity, and

Believing that it has an obligation to admonish particularly reprehensible actions that exploit terra nullius in contravention of the spirit of its past legislation,

Hereby:
  1. Defines, for the purpose of this resolution, terra nullius as being either:
    1. territory which is not subject to any claims by sovereign states as a result of territorial dispute, OR
    2. territory which is inhabited by people not making any sovereign claim over it, under which no sovereign state claims jurisdiction,
  2. Requires member states to ensure that their actions in terra nullius are in compliance with all international legislation (whether passed before or after this resolution), and that they are not used as justification for evading their obligations under national or international law, including multinational treaties,
  3. Reminds member states that they are not responsible for the actions of their citizens or corporations that may occur within terra nullius unless they command or coerce such actions, in which case they must prosecute such entities to the full extent of domestic law where such cases cannot be brought up by international courts of law,
  4. Declares that any member state may claim and establish jurisdiction under terra nullius as defined in Article 1b, where that state has not previously infringed any international law within the claimed area and that area's sapient inhabitants do not legally contest such a claim,
  5. Encourages member states asserting their rights under Article 4 to seek peaceful resolution with rival claimants to the claimed terra nullius in question, and to respect the rights that the claimed area's local inhabitants hold under national and international law, and
  6. Clarifies that this resolution does not cover:
    1. airspace and nautical waters that are not under any sovereign state's control, such as international waters, nor
    2. terra nullius that is artificially created by any state under a multinational treaty (although member states must still follow their obligations under such a treaty).
Co-authored with Lislandia and Lower Nubia.
The Self-Administrative City of TINHAMPTON (pop. 329,537): Saffron Howard, Mayor (UCP); Alexander Smith, WA Delegate-Ambassador

Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:41 pm

OOC: How does this reduce military spending?

Edit: Also could we get clarification that Tinhampton has given permission for Lislandia to submit please.
Last edited by Bananaistan on Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kelssek
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Postby Kelssek » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:36 pm

The concept of "terra nullius" has a dark and odious history which will make it extremely hard for us to support any resolution that would give it standing in international law. Section 4, in particular, seems like a free licence to dispossess people who don't have lawyers (or the concept of law that is like that of the author's, or the imperialist's) of their lands and property.

I am loath to give any aid to such a horrific proposal, but I will point out one stark problem with 1(a), which is an illogical definition: "territory which is not subject to any claims by sovereign states as a result of territorial dispute". The problem of a disputed territory is that too many people are claiming it, not that no one is.

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