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DRAFT: Protection of Hate Speech

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Hatzisland
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Posts: 377
Founded: Feb 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Hatzisland » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:20 pm

Havari wrote:Have my fellow representatives ever heard of the "paradox of tolerance"? It is a theory set out by Karl Marx that a completely tolerant society, one that allows every kind of speech- including hate speech- will not remain tolerant for long. Allowing bigotry to go unpunished means it will take root and grow like a weed until it spreads. In order to truly promote tolerance, one must offer no stage for hate speech.
The proposed law would only protect those seeking to do harm to marginalized peoples, and would do nothing to promote freedom of speech.


OOC: Karl Marx, huh? Didn't he build the perfect society? Yes, I think he did. If only very nation followed marxism. Very good point. In fact, while we're at it, we should make a name day for Karl Marx. I mean, Marxism led to Communism, and the people in Soviet Russia would be there first people to tell you how great communism and Stalin were, right? Anyone? No?
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Jebslund
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Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Jebslund » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Hatzisland wrote:
Havari wrote:Have my fellow representatives ever heard of the "paradox of tolerance"? It is a theory set out by Karl Marx that a completely tolerant society, one that allows every kind of speech- including hate speech- will not remain tolerant for long. Allowing bigotry to go unpunished means it will take root and grow like a weed until it spreads. In order to truly promote tolerance, one must offer no stage for hate speech.
The proposed law would only protect those seeking to do harm to marginalized peoples, and would do nothing to promote freedom of speech.


OOC: Karl Marx, huh? Didn't he build the perfect society? Yes, I think he did. If only very nation followed marxism. Very good point. In fact, while we're at it, we should make a name day for Karl Marx. I mean, Marxism led to Communism, and the people in Soviet Russia would be there first people to tell you how great communism and Stalin were, right? Anyone? No?

[OOC: Ah, yes. Person A is wrong about one thing, so, clearly, nothing that person says could possibly be right ever. Never mind that we have ample evidence of the paradox of tolerance. Nope. Karl Marx was wrong about communism (never mind that Marx didn't endorse Stalin's take on "communism". Your argument is like saying Washington ought to be blamed for Manifest Destiny.), so he MUST be wrong about the paradox of tolerance, too.

Are you familiar with the adage, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"?]
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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
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Postby Andoros » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:36 pm

OOC: I don't think this draft/resolution should come to pass. Not that I disagree with you, I support the idea behind it (both as my nation and somewhat IRL as well). But, this draft serves to reinforce the idea that "hate speech" should be kept separate from regular free speech. Maybe you could emphasize more on regular free speech, instead of only "hate groups"? (Public universites mandated to provide platform for all controversial ideas, regardless of their relative unpopularity etc.)

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Hatzisland
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Posts: 377
Founded: Feb 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Hatzisland » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:03 pm

Jebslund wrote:
Hatzisland wrote:
OOC: Karl Marx, huh? Didn't he build the perfect society? Yes, I think he did. If only very nation followed marxism. Very good point. In fact, while we're at it, we should make a name day for Karl Marx. I mean, Marxism led to Communism, and the people in Soviet Russia would be there first people to tell you how great communism and Stalin were, right? Anyone? No?

[OOC: Ah, yes. Person A is wrong about one thing, so, clearly, nothing that person says could possibly be right ever. Never mind that we have ample evidence of the paradox of tolerance. Nope. Karl Marx was wrong about communism (never mind that Marx didn't endorse Stalin's take on "communism". Your argument is like saying Washington ought to be blamed for Manifest Destiny.), so he MUST be wrong about the paradox of tolerance, too.

Are you familiar with the adage, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"?]



Yes I am. However, I this clock is still hours away from being correct.
"The world dies when freedom dies"
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Dedicated to repealing GAR #286 and GAR #457, as well as fighting the radical globalists in the WA.
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Nyasantara
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: Feb 13, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nyasantara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:13 pm

OOC: It was Karl Popper who conceived of the Paradox of Tolerance, not Karl Marx.

In any case, typically those who oppose Karl Marx or Marian theory have a very poor understanding of it. It's less debate on the labor theory of value, commodity fetishism or his ideas on alienation and more "Oh haven't you heard how evil communism and socialism is?"
Last edited by Nyasantara on Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rat Piss
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Posts: 12
Founded: Feb 17, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Rat Piss » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:09 pm

"While I mostly find this to be a huge embarrassing mess, I could be swayed if it also included a 'freedom of consquences" legalizing a certain amount of mob or vigalante justice against bigots."
Last edited by Rat Piss on Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Falcania
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Founded: Sep 25, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Falcania » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:16 pm

So just to be clear here, the delegations in favour of this legislation are inviting the delegation from the Free Kingdom to call them contemptible, stupid, incompetent, laughable and a disgrace to the World Assembly? That it is a good thing that they have hatred heaped upon them in the name of free speech?
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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:24 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Protecting hatespeech has nothing to do with criticizing governments - and yes, government officials should be protected from hatespeech as private citizens in terms of ethnicity, sexuality, etc.

Why should hatespeech be protected? Like, give me one good reason beyond "because I want to say nasty things and not get in trouble".

Because whoever defines what speech is protected and what is not will always pick based on their own interests.
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Arasi Luvasa
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Founded: Aug 29, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Arasi Luvasa » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:17 pm

Falcania wrote:So just to be clear here, the delegations in favour of this legislation are inviting the delegation from the Free Kingdom to call them contemptible, stupid, incompetent, laughable and a disgrace to the World Assembly? That it is a good thing that they have hatred heaped upon them in the name of free speech?

And the right to call other nations/people to mutilate and brutalise or murder you?
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:08 pm

Falcania wrote:So just to be clear here, the delegations in favour of this legislation are inviting the delegation from the Free Kingdom to call them contemptible, stupid, incompetent, laughable and a disgrace to the World Assembly? That it is a good thing that they have hatred heaped upon them in the name of free speech?

"If your delegation wishes to speak to us in that mannor, we can happily answer back with childish insults of our own. However, we would not stoop to such lows; on the other hand, you will notice how we did not challenge your right to call us such things."
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Battlion
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Founded: Aug 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Battlion » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:36 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Falcania wrote:So just to be clear here, the delegations in favour of this legislation are inviting the delegation from the Free Kingdom to call them contemptible, stupid, incompetent, laughable and a disgrace to the World Assembly? That it is a good thing that they have hatred heaped upon them in the name of free speech?

"If your delegation wishes to speak to us in that mannor, we can happily answer back with childish insults of our own. However, we would not stoop to such lows; on the other hand, you will notice how we did not challenge your right to call us such things."


I like to think there is a distinct difference between “childish insults” and real hate speech which often is directed at vulnerable groups of society who cannot change certain aspects of themselves, with the potential of real harm to them as a result.

The idea of “protecting hate speech” is not something we should be translating into international law.

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New Bremerton
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Bremerton » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:42 am

While we agree with the sentiment that hate speech is protected free speech unless it includes a direct incitement to violence, this is already covered by GAR#436. There is no need to complicate matters any further. GenSec will see to it that it is marked as illegal for duplication.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:14 am

New Bremerton wrote:While we agree with the sentiment that hate speech is protected free speech unless it includes a direct incitement to violence, this is already covered by GAR#436. There is no need to complicate matters any further. GenSec will see to it that it is marked as illegal for duplication.

Doesn't that resolution include clauses allowing nations to restrict speech if it is likely to cause a 'breech of the peace' or some other such rubbish?
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:21 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:While we agree with the sentiment that hate speech is protected free speech unless it includes a direct incitement to violence, this is already covered by GAR#436. There is no need to complicate matters any further. GenSec will see to it that it is marked as illegal for duplication.

Doesn't that resolution include clauses allowing nations to restrict speech if it is likely to cause a 'breech of the peace' or some other such rubbish?

(OOC: Yes, the resolution makes an exception for ‘an incitement to violence or widespread lawlessness’, as well as seven other categories, which would make something prohibiting restrictions on those contradiction.)
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:23 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Doesn't that resolution include clauses allowing nations to restrict speech if it is likely to cause a 'breech of the peace' or some other such rubbish?

(OOC: Yes, the resolution makes an exception for ‘an incitement to violence or widespread lawlessness’, as well as seven other categories, which would make something prohibiting restrictions on those contradiction.)

Gods, it looks like I'll have to finally write a resolution.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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