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[On Hold] Cryopreservation, Death Penalty & Reproduction

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[On Hold] Cryopreservation, Death Penalty & Reproduction

Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:00 am

This is a potential resolution idea. The passage of this resolution would require the Repeal of WA Resolutions #128, #286, and #443, and have extremely strong and far-ranging consequences. What this resolution essentially proposes is providing a third option that has not previously been as viable as before to the relatively binary outcomes of death penalty/execution and reproductive freedoms: cryopreservation.

A way how this drastically changes the legal dynamic could be easily demonstrated as follows: a condemned prisoner is sentenced to 200 years of cryopreservation instead of death penalty, and is thus removed from any possibility of harming society, in the same way that the death penalty does. If the cryopreservation chamber of those undergoing such a sentence was tampered with during the sentence, the person within would unable to be revived. After that set amount of time, they would then enter rehabilitation and readjustment to the future society, which would most definitely have better barriers against criminal activity. As for fetuses, they could be also be cryopreserved in much the same manner, and be revived when convenient to the mother. As for allowing abortion and the death penalty, cryopreservation brings up a large issue in that it fulfills the purpose of death for any period of time, but is able to revive cryopreserved individuals later, when those who would be affected by those frozen individuals would no longer be present. This is assuming that anti-aging technology is not yet prevalent in member nations, of course, although that may need to be accounted for.


Cryopreservation, Death Penalty & Reproduction
Category: Civil Rights | Area of Effect: Strong | Proposed by: Caspian Settlement



To be written

The World Assembly hereby:
Last edited by Caspian Settlement on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:07 am

You don't get to "reserve" proposal ideas, although I must admit that this idea is pretty awful. Countless member states are technologically incapable of such punishments, instituting such punishments makes no sense if you intend to rehabilitate them anyway afterward, and many more member states would rightly consider this a form of torture.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:11 am

Wallenburg wrote:You don't get to "reserve" proposal ideas, although I must admit that this idea is pretty awful. Countless member states are technologically incapable of such punishments, instituting such punishments makes no sense if you intend to rehabilitate them anyway afterward, and many more member states would rightly consider this a form of torture.

If technologically advanced nations were strongly encouraged to share such technology, I believe the first problem would be addressed well. Additionally, considering cryopreservation as torture would be inaccurate. There would be virtually no pain during the process, and readjustment (by schooling) to a future society would be more boring then torture.

Also, I generally understand that it's looked down upon to use another's resolution idea?
Last edited by Caspian Settlement on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:12 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:You don't get to "reserve" proposal ideas, although I must admit that this idea is pretty awful. Countless member states are technologically incapable of such punishments, instituting such punishments makes no sense if you intend to rehabilitate them anyway afterward, and many more member states would rightly consider this a form of torture.

If technologically advanced nations were strongly encouraged to share such technology, I believe the first problem would be addressed well.

I'm pretty sure forcing players to RP their nations receiving futuristic technology is forced RP, and therefore illegal.
Additionally, considering cryopreservation as torture would be inaccurate. There would be virtually no pain during the process, and readjustment (by schooling) to a future society would be more boring then torture.

Physical pain is not the only factor in torture.
Also, I generally understand that it's looked down upon to use another's resolution idea?

That's my point. You don't get to just say "I'm going to write a proposal on X some day. Nobody else gets to write about X."
Last edited by Wallenburg on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:14 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:If technologically advanced nations were strongly encouraged to share such technology, I believe the first problem would be addressed well. Additionally, considering cryopreservation as torture would be inaccurate. There would be virtually no pain during the process, and readjustment (by schooling) to a future society would be more boring then torture.

Physical pain is not the only factor in torture.
Also, I generally understand that it's looked down upon to use another's resolution idea?

That's my point. You don't get to just say "I'm going to write a proposal on X some day. Nobody else gets to write about X."

Any psychological effects should be easily accounted for in the future society. You're missing the point.

As for the idea itself, of course. I just thought it was looked down upon.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:22 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:Any psychological effects should be easily accounted for in the future society. You're missing the point.

Why? Why can we just assume that "future society" can just reverse torture?
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:28 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:Any psychological effects should be easily accounted for in the future society. You're missing the point.

Why? Why can we just assume that "future society" can just reverse torture?

Criminal cryopreservation should not be considered torture, but an alternative to the death penalty and life sentences. Unlike the death penalty, cryopreservation allows the individual to live, but lacks the potential for escape that life sentences have. The psychological effects of the death penalty likely exceed, if not overwhelmingly surpass, the psychological effects of revival from cryopreservation.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:34 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Why? Why can we just assume that "future society" can just reverse torture?

Criminal cryopreservation should not be considered torture, but an alternative to the death penalty and life sentences. Unlike the death penalty, cryopreservation allows the individual to live, but lacks the potential for escape that life sentences have.

Huh, that's weird, that pretty accurately reflects the nature of continued torture.
The psychological effects of the death penalty likely exceed, if not overwhelmingly surpass, the psychological effects of revival from cryopreservation.

There are no psychological effects of the death penalty, because the death penalty kills the person who would otherwise be able to have any psychological experiences at all.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:Criminal cryopreservation should not be considered torture, but an alternative to the death penalty and life sentences. Unlike the death penalty, cryopreservation allows the individual to live, but lacks the potential for escape that life sentences have.

Huh, that's weird, that pretty accurately reflects the nature of continued torture.

In cryopreservation, the person is unconscious. I don't get your analogy.
Wallenburg wrote:
The psychological effects of the death penalty likely exceed, if not overwhelmingly surpass, the psychological effects of revival from cryopreservation.

There are no psychological effects of the death penalty, because the death penalty kills the person who would otherwise be able to have any psychological experiences at all.

The psychological effects of the death penalty do exist, in the days, months, or sometimes years after a death sentence is given, where the penalty isn't applied. Prolonging one's wait before the death penalty should be qualified as continued torture under your definitions.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:49 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Huh, that's weird, that pretty accurately reflects the nature of continued torture.

In cryopreservation, the person is unconscious. I don't get your analogy.

It's not an analogy, it's a recognition that you aren't actually demonstrating that "cryopreservation" is not torture.
Wallenburg wrote:There are no psychological effects of the death penalty, because the death penalty kills the person who would otherwise be able to have any psychological experiences at all.

The psychological effects of the death penalty do exist, in the days, months, or sometimes years after a death sentence is given, where the penalty isn't applied.

Those aren't the psychological effects of performing the death penalty, those are the psychological effects of not performing the death penalty, but threatening to do so.
Prolonging one's wait before the death penalty should be qualified as continued torture under your definitions.

They should, and they are torture. I don't see what you are getting at.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:16 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:In cryopreservation, the person is unconscious. I don't get your analogy.

It's not an analogy, it's a recognition that you aren't actually demonstrating that "cryopreservation" is not torture.

If cryopreservation is torture, then every medical coma is torture.
Wallenburg wrote:
The psychological effects of the death penalty do exist, in the days, months, or sometimes years after a death sentence is given, where the penalty isn't applied.

Those aren't the psychological effects of performing the death penalty, those are the psychological effects of not performing the death penalty, but threatening to do so.

There is commonly a wait between the death sentence and the actual death, so being given the death sentence still has overwhelming psychological effects.
Wallenburg wrote:
Prolonging one's wait before the death penalty should be qualified as continued torture under your definitions.

They should, and they are torture. I don't see what you are getting at.

What I'm getting at is the psychological effects of the death penalty are worse than cryopreservation, according to you.
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Postby Tinfect » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:31 am

OOC:
I'm pretty sure that this is just a movie plot. In other words, a laughably bad idea and little else.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:41 am

Tinfect wrote:OOC:
I'm pretty sure that this is just a movie plot. In other words, a laughably bad idea and little else.

OOC: Unfortunately, you haven't considered technologically advanced nations & the possibility that at least one of them is willing to distribute their technology to WA member nations. Also, it's better to legislate on things sooner (and thus on the long-term) than to procrastinate and legislate on things only when they become a major issue.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:43 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:It's not an analogy, it's a recognition that you aren't actually demonstrating that "cryopreservation" is not torture.

If cryopreservation is torture, then every medical coma is torture.

That does not follow.
Wallenburg wrote:Those aren't the psychological effects of performing the death penalty, those are the psychological effects of not performing the death penalty, but threatening to do so.

There is commonly a wait between the death sentence and the actual death, so being given the death sentence still has overwhelming psychological effects.

You are arguing with the wall. I never said that indefinite imprisonment waiting for execution has no psychological effects. Read my posts.
Wallenburg wrote:They should, and they are torture. I don't see what you are getting at.

What I'm getting at is the psychological effects of the death penalty are worse than cryopreservation, according to you.

https://youtu.be/XJqTf44SKRs
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Postby Tinfect » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:49 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:OOC: Unfortunately, you haven't considered technologically advanced nations & the possibility that at least one of them is willing to distribute their technology to WA member nations. Also, it's better to legislate on things sooner (and thus on the long-term) than to procrastinate and legislate on things only when they become a major issue.


OOC:
First of all, cryopreservation is distinctly in the realm of science-fiction, second, ICly, the Imperium is an enormously technologically advanced nation, and frankly, gigantic, nation; it doesn't matter. Not only does this, in theory, not have remotely the same effect as the death penalty, (rather than removing an individual from society it merely makes them the future society's problem,) or Abortion, (People have abortions because they don't want, or can't have, the kid, this is unnecessary and silly, not to mention likely a vastly more complex and dangerous procedure,), I don't really support writing Legislation that could only coherently apply in an FT framework.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:53 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:If cryopreservation is torture, then every medical coma is torture.

That does not follow.

Both are artificially induced periods of unconsciousness & an inability to feel pain, only for different durations.
Wallenburg wrote:
There is commonly a wait between the death sentence and the actual death, so being given the death sentence still has overwhelming psychological effects.

You are arguing with the wall. I never said that indefinite imprisonment waiting for execution has no psychological effects. Read my posts.

I have read your posts, but I wonder whether you've read mine. What I mean is that any waiting for execution has psychological effects, and the longer the waiting, the worse they are.
Wallenburg wrote:
What I'm getting at is the psychological effects of the death penalty are worse than cryopreservation, according to you.

https://youtu.be/XJqTf44SKRs

You considered waiting for execution to be torture yourself. Cryopreservation could not even approximate that experience.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:55 am

Tinfect wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:OOC: Unfortunately, you haven't considered technologically advanced nations & the possibility that at least one of them is willing to distribute their technology to WA member nations. Also, it's better to legislate on things sooner (and thus on the long-term) than to procrastinate and legislate on things only when they become a major issue.


OOC:
First of all, cryopreservation is distinctly in the realm of science-fiction, second, ICly, the Imperium is an enormously technologically advanced nation, and frankly, gigantic, nation; it doesn't matter. Not only does this, in theory, not have remotely the same effect as the death penalty, (rather than removing an individual from society it merely makes them the future society's problem,) or Abortion, (People have abortions because they don't want, or can't have, the kid, this is unnecessary and silly, not to mention likely a vastly more complex and dangerous procedure,), I don't really support writing Legislation that could only coherently apply in an FT framework.

OOC: It's much more PMT than FT. Embryo cryopreservation and revival already exists, and fetal cryopreservation, followed by human cryopreservation, are likely to follow. Such legislation would actually apply relatively soon.
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Postby Tinfect » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:56 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:OOC: It's much more PMT than FT. Embryo cryopreservation and revival already exists, and fetal cryopreservation, followed by human cryopreservation, are likely to follow. Such legislation would actually apply relatively soon.


OOC:
Doubtful.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:That does not follow.

Both are artificially induced periods of unconsciousness & an inability to feel pain, only for different durations.

And one is a medically necessary gamble performed to keep someone alive so that they may make a recovery, whereas the other is this.
Wallenburg wrote:You are arguing with the wall. I never said that indefinite imprisonment waiting for execution has no psychological effects. Read my posts.

I have read your posts, but I wonder whether you've read mine. What I mean is that any waiting for execution has psychological effects, and the longer the waiting, the worse they are.

I already agreed to that, and in the end of this post you recognize that I have agreed to that. So stop fucking pretending otherwise.

You considered waiting for execution to be torture yourself. Cryopreservation could not even approximate that experience.

That's not evidence, that's just rewording what you said before. I want evidence.
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:07 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:Both are artificially induced periods of unconsciousness & an inability to feel pain, only for different durations.

And one is a medically necessary gamble performed to keep someone alive so that they may make a recovery, whereas the other is this.

Uh, no. It's emerging technology, not sci-fi.
Wallenburg wrote:
I have read your posts, but I wonder whether you've read mine. What I mean is that any waiting for execution has psychological effects, and the longer the waiting, the worse they are.

I already agreed to that, and in the end of this post you recognize that I have agreed to that. So stop fucking pretending otherwise.

I'm not pretending. You said indefinite.
Wallenburg wrote:
You considered waiting for execution to be torture yourself. Cryopreservation could not even approximate that experience.

That's not evidence, that's just rewording what you said before. I want evidence.

A comparison would be a soldier returning to their homeland, which had been a warzone, and losing some (but not all) relatives. Cryopreserved people would still have relatives (albeit potentially distant) in the future. The psychological effect from that would be less than waiting for execution, in the vast majority of cases.
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Postby New Bremerton » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:33 am

From the criminal's POV, 200 years of cryostasis would be the temporal equivalent of stepping in and out of a cold shower, since the prisoner is unconscious all this while. They are not really "doing time". Prisoners should not have the luxury of vastly outliving their contemporary peers and then "instantly" (from their POV) stepping into a futuristic utopia while the rest of us (most of us, I presume) die of old age before such a world comes to pass. This is no punishment. For some criminals who care little about friends and family, this is a blessing and a reward for their criminality.

Plus, some criminals simply deserve to die.
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:42 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:Uh, no. It's emerging technology, not sci-fi.

OOC: Just because "it's sort of doable", doesn't make it not scifi. We can in RL induce fusion reactions, yet stable fusion reactors that produce constant power are still solidly in the realm of science fiction.

(Not to mention that freezing embryos, which are just collections of maybe a few dozen unspecialized cells, is lightyears away from freezing complete adult organisms with trillions of highly-specialized cells.)

And like others have said, a cessation of activity for howeverlong, is neither a death penalty (as it's not permanent) nor "doing time", nor is the individual in any way reformed after the duration.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am

New Bremerton wrote:From the criminal's POV, 200 years of cryostasis would be the temporal equivalent of stepping in and out of a cold shower, since the prisoner is unconscious all this while. They are not really "doing time". Prisoners should not have the luxury of vastly outliving their contemporary peers and then "instantly" (from their POV) stepping into a futuristic utopia while the rest of us (most of us, I presume) die of old age before such a world comes to pass. This is no punishment. For some criminals who care little about friends and family, this is a blessing and a reward for their criminality.


"This is all quite false. Cryopreservation is a sentence of exile to an alien nation that can never make sense and which will tread on those exiles like they're dirt. This is a terrible, terrible plan and even death penalty abolitionists should believe a quick execution is more humane."

"Seriously, shut this terrible idea down."
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:08 am

If we're just going to FT wank all our problems away, then we should really start with economic development. Then move on to the end of capitalism and it's replacement with a communist post-scarcity society.

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Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:08 pm

The passage of this resolution would require the Repeal of WA Resolutions #128, #286, and #443,

Only actual repeals can repeal a resolution, and only one at a time, not multiples at once. Also pretty sure that a proposal can not mandate something be repealed.
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