[PASSED] Command Responsibility

[Separatist Peoples]

IC: The intern girl is back, this time with a faxed note. "I have a question for you, ambassador Bell. If a higher commander - let's say in the example of our coast guard, the one responsible for the east coast - gives an order to their subcommanders to "keep foreigners from illegally entering Araraukar by any means necessary", and a subcommander then interpretes that to mean they can sink a refugee boat, killing everyone on board, would the proposal require stripping rank from the sector commander for east coast or the particular patrol commander, who actually gave the illegal order to sink the boat? Given that the sector commander is more likely to be up to date with WA resolutions, it's unlikely they would have meant any means that break the WA law, but the omission of the word "legal" before the word "means" might allow the patrol commander to think their illegal actions are justified."

OOC: That example refers to the "atrocities" I mentioned in OOC earlier.

"Again, this is a question of fact. Theoretically, assuming the captain is innocent until proven guilty, the Araraukaran coast guard tribunal would have to find extrinsic evidence to suggest that the vague order was meant to include illegal methods. Per clause III.1, the sailors must have training as to what is legal and what is illegal, so they should be able to distinguish between the hyperbole of "any means necessary" and the actual meaning most of us would mean in that scenario: "any means necessary within the bounds of legality." However, if the captain preceded this with something along the lines of "I don't care about the rules, I hate those dirty foreigners," there is a better chance that he meant the order to be illegal.

"In either case, if the captain finds out that the sailors under his command used an illegal method after stating something ambiguously (but, for the sake of argument, innocently intended), he is obligated to punish those sailors or face responsibility for that failure."

[Separatist Peoples]

bump

[Araraukar]

"Again, this is a question of fact. Theoretically, assuming the captain is innocent until proven guilty, the Araraukaran coast guard tribunal would have to find extrinsic evidence to suggest that the vague order was meant to include illegal methods. Per clause III.1, the sailors must have training as to what is legal and what is illegal, so they should be able to distinguish between the hyperbole of "any means necessary" and the actual meaning most of us would mean in that scenario: "any means necessary within the bounds of legality." However, if the captain preceded this with something along the lines of "I don't care about the rules, I hate those dirty foreigners," there is a better chance that he meant the order to be illegal.

"In either case, if the captain finds out that the sailors under his command used an illegal method after stating something ambiguously (but, for the sake of argument, innocently intended), he is obligated to punish those sailors or face responsibility for that failure."

IC: "Thank you, ambassador," the intern says, "no further questions at this time. I'm not sure if that means my superiors are happy with the proposal text as is, or if they've just found a loophole they like and don't want to draw attention to."

OOC: The only loophole I can find are the words "during armed conflict", which the sinking of a refugee boat example wouldn't fit. I know it's against WA law because of an existing resolution, but I just mean it wouldn't fit the wording of this one.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Also looking to submit this soon

[Falcania]

I strongly believe we'll support this when we see it in the queue.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Submitted.

[Falcania]

"I am pleased to formally approve this proposal on behalf of the region of Atlantian Oceania."

[Elyreia]

The Elyreian Lenton was split on the issue, with the more militarist houses voting against. However, my esteemed cousin the Princess Kaerys II Vaelans has overruled them with Princely Prerogative, and we will be voting in favor. The military must be held accountable for its actions from the top down. Elyreia plans to try local war criminal and Nāpāstre naejot se Dārilarostegun Dorin Gelion and his accomplices, and we fully intend to comply with this GAR if and when it passes to ensure they are all punished accordingly, regardless of the beliefs (or possible complicity) of the other High Houses.

[Lost Luxuria]

We the empo... *cough* representative of the Lost Luxurian Empire, align ourselves against this proposal. We value the morale of our esteemed army, and as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war". The wars throughout the years have been filled with these so called "atrocities", yet the world hasn't stopped turning. We see it purpose-less to order our troops and commanders to act "legally". If such atrocities would de-morale our enemies and increase the overall morale of our soldiers, so be it. It is but a small price to pay.
Alas a small recommendation to our colleagues of The General Assembly. There are multiple loopholes in this proposal. If it was legal in a nation to commit these "atrocities" during wartime, would this bill still be in effect? I think not. Also this bill stands to gain only towards democratic nations. You forget that not all nations are democratic.
-The Esteemed Empo .. Representative of Lost Luxuria

[Separatist Peoples]

We the empo... *cough* representative of the Lost Luxurian Empire, align ourselves against this proposal. We value the morale of our esteemed army, and as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war". The wars throughout the years have been filled with these so called "atrocities", yet the world hasn't stopped turning. We see it purpose-less to order our troops and commanders to act "legally". If such atrocities would de-morale our enemies and increase the overall morale of our soldiers, so be it. It is but a small price to pay.
Alas a small recommendation to our colleagues of The General Assembly. There are multiple loopholes in this proposal. If it was legal in a nation to commit these "atrocities" during wartime, would this bill still be in effect? I think not. Also this bill stands to gain only towards democratic nations. You forget that not all nations are democratic.
-The Esteemed Empo .. Representative of Lost Luxuria

"These atrocities are already illegal, ambassador. A quick perusal of the passed resolutions would have demonstrated that your "loophole" is so much hogwash. As for your argument that morale justifies atrocities, you're welcome to vote against. I don't accept Orcish philosophy."

[Falcania]

We the empo... *cough* representative of the Lost Luxurian Empire, align ourselves against this proposal. We value the morale of our esteemed army, and as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war". The wars throughout the years have been filled with these so called "atrocities", yet the world hasn't stopped turning. We see it purpose-less to order our troops and commanders to act "legally". If such atrocities would de-morale our enemies and increase the overall morale of our soldiers, so be it. It is but a small price to pay.
Alas a small recommendation to our colleagues of The General Assembly. There are multiple loopholes in this proposal. If it was legal in a nation to commit these "atrocities" during wartime, would this bill still be in effect? I think not. Also this bill stands to gain only towards democratic nations. You forget that not all nations are democratic.
-The Esteemed Empo .. Representative of Lost Luxuria

"If you cannot win a war without resorting to atrocities, perhaps you shouldn't be going to war?"

[Elyreia]

"If you cannot win a war without resorting to atrocities, perhaps you shouldn't be going to war?"

There is no shame in being the honorable loser. It is in defeat where true greatness lies; for only the loser wears the scars of defeat, and only the loser knows the true price of victory.

[Stoskavanya]

"If you cannot win a war without resorting to atrocities, perhaps you shouldn't be going to war?"

There is no shame in being the honorable loser. It is in defeat where true greatness lies; for only the loser wears the scars of defeat, and only the loser knows the true price of victory.

The victor doesn't know the true price of victory?

[Araraukar]

The victor doesn't know the true price of victory?

OOC: If Real Life is anything to go by, no, since it's losers that tend to get slammed with the hardest war reparation demands.

[Bears Armed]

The victor doesn't know the true price of victory?

OOC: If Real Life is anything to go by, no.

OOC: going by the condition that the RL UK was in after WW2, yes.

[Elyreia]

The victor doesn't know the true price of victory?

Rarely are the victors going to suffer reprisals, economic destruction, disarmament, subverting of cultural or national ideals, or the complete and utter devastation of their societal narrative. After all, the victors do pay a price... but they don't suffer the same consequences.

OOC: going by the condition that the RL UK was in after WW2, yes.

OOC: Don't recall half of the UK being divided along a wall with one half of the population having their basic freedoms repressed. Never said the victors don't pay *any* prices, but they certainly don't experience the full toll of the results.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: The state of the UK after World War 2 is really not the topic of the proposal. Unless there is a reasonable nexus between the conversation and the topic, lets not continue?

[Falcania]

Are there any current plans to resubmit this excellent proposal?

[Separatist Peoples]

Are there any current plans to resubmit this excellent proposal?

"It didn't make quorum last time, so I'm waiting for a more active group of delegates. I would have suspected sabotage, but it seems a relatively inoffensive piece to sabotage."

[Maowi]

"President Jangle told Mr. Roanson told Mrs. Robinson from next door with the funny hair told me mam to tell me to tell you that he hopes your great proposal comes to vote because he fully supports it," says a breathless eleven year old Maowese girl who takes part in the President's new "Politics for Kids" scheme to get children enthusiastic and involved in politics.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Gonna try submitting this again and see if it makes quorum

[Dreadton]

How are you defining atrocities?

[A Rosa]

It'll go to the vote and get rejected

[Kyoki Chudoku]

Tokiko Suou stood up. She held in her hand a knife. ”Lemme start this with a bit of a preface, if you will. Like many Chudokurens, I participated in combat in the Nightmare War, in which both sides conducted atrocities as defined by World Assembly regulations. I will maintain that any Chudokuren atrocities were due to a desperate need for survival, and that we had no choice but to to everything we had at a merciless and inhuman enemy. That clear, I’ll speak on the actual proposal now. Just keep in mind that the horors I’ve witnessed will influence my perspective.”

She pointed the blade of her knife against her eyepatch. ”This is my eye, or at least it was before one of those Tengo blighters gouged it out.” She moved the blade to the scars on her face and forearms, in the shapes of tally-marks. ”These are not war wounds, but a kill count.” The knife then touched her head. ”Until recently, there was either unwanted feline features here, or their stumps. The point I’m makin’ is how damaging war can be. I understand that our war was a particularly brutal one. That doesn’t change the essence of the fact that, under this resolution, our entire military would be disbanded in all likelihood. When in such a desperate situation, a war which killed over half of the nation, let alone the army...can we be reasonably expected to have cared about WA protocol? Because of the consequences this resolution would have in such situations, I must remain opposed to it.”

[Separatist Peoples]

Tokiko Suou stood up. She held in her hand a knife. ”Lemme start this with a bit of a preface, if you will. Like many Chudokurens, I participated in combat in the Nightmare War, in which both sides conducted atrocities as defined by World Assembly regulations. I will maintain that any Chudokuren atrocities were due to a desperate need for survival, and that we had no choice but to to everything we had at a merciless and inhuman enemy. That clear, I’ll speak on the actual proposal now. Just keep in mind that the horors I’ve witnessed will influence my perspective.”

She pointed the blade of her knife against her eyepatch. ”This is my eye, or at least it was before one of those Tengo blighters gouged it out.” She moved the blade to the scars on her face and forearms, in the shapes of tally-marks. ”These are not war wounds, but a kill count.” The knife then touched her head. ”Until recently, there was either unwanted feline features here, or their stumps. The point I’m makin’ is how damaging war can be. I understand that our war was a particularly brutal one. That doesn’t change the essence of the fact that, under this resolution, our entire military would be disbanded in all likelihood. When in such a desperate situation, a war which killed over half of the nation, let alone the army...can we be reasonably expected to have cared about WA protocol? Because of the consequences this resolution would have in such situations, I must remain opposed to it.”

"Are you really arguing that the only way to win a war is to out-awful the enemy? That's what this boils down to. If you cannot wage a war without violating the WA's laws of war, which primarily concerns itself with crimes against humanity and silly things like not slaughtering surrendering soldiers, then your argument isn't going to convince anybody."