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[Perfect Draft] Provisional Rule in Wartime

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Doing it Rightland
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 134
Founded: Dec 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Doing it Rightland » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:27 pm

My only questions are as follows:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
  • Utilize natural and community resources to the benefit of the occupied territory, provided those resources:

    1. Are not appropriated for domestic use by the occupying force; and

    2. Do not create war materiel.

Could this theoretically be circumvented by utilizing resources that are either not natural/communal (ie seizing from a private entity) or already processed goods to fuel their war efforts? Like, just an example, but lets say an occupying nation seized control of a canned beverage distribution center (bear with me). They could theoretically take the cans (a finished good) and either use them for domestic use or smelt them down into metal, which could then be used in the production of weapons. Is this possible? (If there's already previous legislation for this, please let me know)

Separatist Peoples wrote:
  • Detonates all nuclear warheads simultaneously.

We would like this clause to be struck from the proposal.
Just a nation trying to right the wrongs it can.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 13783
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:54 pm

Doing it Rightland wrote:My only questions are as follows:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
  • Utilize natural and community resources to the benefit of the occupied territory, provided those resources:

    1. Are not appropriated for domestic use by the occupying force; and

    2. Do not create war materiel.

Could this theoretically be circumvented by utilizing resources that are either not natural/communal (ie seizing from a private entity) or already processed goods to fuel their war efforts? Like, just an example, but lets say an occupying nation seized control of a canned beverage distribution center (bear with me). They could theoretically take the cans (a finished good) and either use them for domestic use or smelt them down into metal, which could then be used in the production of weapons. Is this possible? (If there's already previous legislation for this, please let me know)

"There is already previous law on this topic. I wrote it."

Separatist Peoples wrote:
  • Detonates all nuclear warheads simultaneously.

We would like this clause to be struck from the proposal.

"Never. When I pass this, the world will burn in radioactive flames."

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Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Doing it Rightland
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Posts: 134
Founded: Dec 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Doing it Rightland » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:01 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"There is already previous law on this topic. I wrote it."

Neat.

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Never. When I pass this, the world will burn in radioactive flames."

Less neat. But, aside from the nuclear detonation part, I support this.
Just a nation trying to right the wrongs it can.

"Two roads diverged by a wood, and I — I took neither."
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Bears Armed
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Posts: 17664
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:37 am

Utilize natural and community resources to the benefit of the occupied territory, provided those resources:
Are not appropriated for domestic use by the occupying force; and
Do not create war materiel.


OOC
So if the occupier wants to strengthen their field fortifications with sandbags they would have to ship the filling material for those into the territory?
As this is "may", with no "must not" beyond shipping appropriated resources back home or creating war materiel, and those lines only apply when the resources are being used "to the benefit of the occupied territory", couldn't nations read it as allowing occupiers to use those resources for the occupiers' benefit in other ways than just breathing the air & drinking the water -- such as, for example, selling valuable materials to a third party (rather than "domestically") -- as well?
What if the occupied territory's population mostly support the occupation, perhaps because they were being oppressed by their former masters?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The ethereal lord
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Posts: 11
Founded: Aug 26, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The ethereal lord » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:04 am

'A "Military occupation" is the effective and provisional control and administration of a territory by a military power not sovereign to the territory that it control'
Is a military force that controls an area not the sovereign of the area?
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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:15 am

The ethereal lord wrote:'A "Military occupation" is the effective and provisional control and administration of a territory by a military power not sovereign to the territory that it control'
Is a military force that controls an area not the sovereign of the area?

"No, a military is not the sovereign state."

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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The ethereal lord
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Founded: Aug 26, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The ethereal lord » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:45 am

Yes you're right. I meant isn't the controller of the military then the sovereign if they occupy the land?
Also clause 8 should obviously be kept. For the safety of all right. The ones supporting nuclear de-proliferation would like it i think.
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Separatist Peoples
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Posts: 13783
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:56 am

The ethereal lord wrote:Yes you're right. I meant isn't the controller of the military then the sovereign if they occupy the land?
Also clause 8 should obviously be kept. For the safety of all right. The ones supporting nuclear de-proliferation would like it i think.

"Sorry for the delay. A foreign force occupying land is not the sovereign unless the territory is annexed. An occupation may be a prelude to annexation, but it is not itself annexation."

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12351
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:30 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"I have considered the battlefield and occupied territory to be separate jurisdictions. A battlefield is, by its nature, a contested territory. While military superiority may not be questionable, that there is combat itself suggests the land is not uncontested. This should not interfere with battlefield seizures."
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Sorry for the delay. A foreign force occupying land is not the sovereign unless the territory is annexed. An occupation may be a prelude to annexation, but it is not itself annexation."

"So what does a contested piece of occupied territory count as? Neither nation has military forces in the area, but heavily-armed law enforcement and border patrol units do keep things civilized most of the time. Many Araraukarian citizens live in the area, and we consider it a part of our nation, but many foreigners also live there, and our northernly neighbour disagrees with our claim to it, and considers it part of their nation instead."
Last edited by Araraukar on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Separatist Peoples
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Posts: 13783
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"I have considered the battlefield and occupied territory to be separate jurisdictions. A battlefield is, by its nature, a contested territory. While military superiority may not be questionable, that there is combat itself suggests the land is not uncontested. This should not interfere with battlefield seizures."
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Sorry for the delay. A foreign force occupying land is not the sovereign unless the territory is annexed. An occupation may be a prelude to annexation, but it is not itself annexation."

"So what does a contested piece of occupied territory count as? Neither nation has military forces in the area, but heavily-armed law enforcement and border patrol units do keep things civilized most of the time. Many Araraukarian citizens live in the area, and we consider it a part of our nation, but many foreigners also live there, and our northernly neighbour disagrees with our claim to it, and considers it part of their nation instead."

"Land that is occupied is not contested in the sense I've been using, insofar as it is under de facto control of one power. What you are describing is not within the ambit of this proposal."

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Falcania
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Founded: Sep 25, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Falcania » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:50 pm

So at what point does an occupation become an annexation? I am unclear on this point.
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Separatist Peoples
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Posts: 13783
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:51 pm

Falcania wrote:So at what point does an occupation become an annexation? I am unclear on this point.

"When the territory is formally incorporated into a nation as part of the nation."

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

Third year law student, homebrewer, and cat worshiper

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Elyreia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 130
Founded: Jun 29, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Elyreia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:03 pm

Falcania wrote:So at what point does an occupation become an annexation? I am unclear on this point.


Annexation means that the territory (formerly of Nation A) is now legally a part of the annexing party (Nation B). The citizens of the annexed territory no longer belong to Nation A, they are now citizens of Nation B. They pay taxes to Nation B, they are protected by Nation B, and they adhere to all laws of Nation B.

An occupation means that the territory has a permanent military presence from Nation B to prevent that territory's use by Nation A in continuing the war effort against Nation B. It's a denial of resources and territory, but not a claim of "we own this" by Nation B.
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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12351
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:51 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Land that is occupied is not contested in the sense I've been using, insofar as it is under de facto control of one power. What you are describing is not within the ambit of this proposal."

"Well, it's technically under the joint control of the two nations, but tends to be more ours whenever Miss Leveret has been visiting there recently. However, if our situation would not be affected by the proposal, then I have no objections or further questions."
"I've come to appreciate boring bureaucracy much more after my official execution..." - Johan Milkus, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 13783
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:58 am

OOC: Bump again. Looking to submit this after Self Defense Compact, I think.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

Third year law student, homebrewer, and cat worshiper

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12351
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:50 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: Bump again. Looking to submit this after Self Defense Compact, I think.

OOC: So what you're saying is I should move WA status to WAKK for a while? Can do. :P
"I've come to appreciate boring bureaucracy much more after my official execution..." - Johan Milkus, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.

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