NATION

PASSWORD

[ON HOLD] Legalisation of Gambling

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Second Draft Up!

Postby Jebslund » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:55 am

Kenmoria wrote:"You also might want to change about the preamble, namely the understanding clause is a bit clunky and the first three are repetitive in their openings."

"Noted and fixed. Thank you for pointing that out."

United Massachusetts wrote:"Nations absolutely have the right to restrict fraudulent practices, and particularly the more egregious practices. Gambling is one of these activities. To exemplify why, we call forth the Catechism: 'They [gambling games] become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement.' It is this deprivation that we will prevent--unless a social good of value to us can be demonstrated from gambling, we fear that despite the restrictions imposed by GA 123, the risk of gambling addiction and the social vices gambling brings far outweigh any benefit. It is our right as a sovereign nation to make this determination."


"Gambling is not inherently fraudulent. Honest businesses do not imply players are paying to be handed money, and those players who are responsible with their money will not fritter it all away unless they are not in their right mind, which, for the third time now, you are reminded is the province of GA#123, which specifically addresses the problem of gambling addiction, and not this resolution, which deals with the issue strictly from the side of business ethics. For an Abrahamic state, your leaders and ambassadors are rather lacking in faith. GA#123 is sufficient from the standpoint of dealing with problem gambling via the general public, and the people who are not addicted are deprived of nothing through anyone's choice but their own."

United Massachusetts wrote:"GA 123 already does this. Furthermore, you're referring to National Economic Freedoms, which states that the WA can't restrict industry without a hazard being present. That same resolution, incidentally, allows me to illegalise gambling: 'ALLOWS national governments to regulate commerce within their jurisdiction.' Our contention is that this proposal infringes on the rights afforded to our nation in GA 68, and is therefore illegal."

"NEF does not work that way and you know it. Your attempt to twist the words of the law to suit you is unsurprising, considering it is my experience those of the Abrahamic faiths are rather fond of twisting laws to suit their personal tastes.", Sofia pauses, "Perhaps you may wish to review GA precedent and the actual intent behind previous WA legislation before issuing such challenges going forward?"

United Massachusetts wrote:"It might benefit us in this respect, you contend. Fair enough--I'll happily disagree with that nation. Having said that, I fail to see why United Massachusetts shouldn't be afforded the sovereign right to determine what is best for its economy. Why does the GA have to tell us what's good for our economy--that's not its job."


"You want to do what you want when you want on the basis of national sovereignty, the door is over there.", Sophia points to the door, "Until then, if the GA decides that it would be of benefit to legalise an industry in the interests of boosting local economies, which will in turn boost national economies, which will in turn boost the global economy, we will. Using power for the sake of power is tyranny, true, and that is not the reason for this resolution, but so is denying a couple celebrating their marriage champagne because there is a poor, afflicted man on the other side of the country who cannot look at a can of beer without going on a binge. You would have the couple denied their freedom because of the man's affliction. Jebslund, and, one hopes, the GA, would rather the couple have their champagne and the man be treated for his alcoholism. Besides, Jebslund has tried prohibition before, back in the Dreichtslund days. Alcohol use was far more prolific, with far worse results, and the unregulated alcohol was downright lethal half the time. I lost a cousin to a home-brewed can of brew, as a matter of fact. Her first and last."

United Massachusetts wrote:"GA 123 is wholly inadequate and you know it. The way to wipe out gambling addiction is to limit gambling, or at least impose far stronger restrictions than listed here. We will note our pleasure, however, with one of the restrictions, that member nations take 'steps to reduce or eliminate problem gambling.' Since we believe that problem gambling can only be eliminated by eliminating gambling, here's our solution--our steps to reduce problem gambling shall consist of a stakes limit of $5. Sounds good to me."
[OOC: Corrected at typo in "consist".]


"The new draft has closed that loophole. Thank you for bringing it to my attention! However, if $5 is high enough stakes to allow gambling facilities to operate at enough of a profit to stay in business, that is your decision to make. Your limit on stakes would also, in that situation, be in line with GA#123. How convenient for you!"

United Massachusetts wrote:"You have to prove that the benefits make this an international issue. That at the moment, it appears to be one of domestic commerce, doesn't help your case. Plus, the solution is easy--since gambling exploits the poor for profit by deluding them, heavily restrict it as fraudulent industry. Done."


"Community commercial strength begets national commercial strength. National commercial strength begets international commercial success. The tree that is the WA becomes economically stronger by making the roots stronger. How you do not see that is beyond me, though I suspect you are blinded by your irrational hatred of gambling. Every encounter with the People of Abraham makes me ever more glad the Krakken does not bind its adherents to a 2000-plus-year-old collection of stories penned for farmers in what may as well have been an alien world."

"As to exploiting the poor by deluding them, I am beginning to wonder if you've even bothered to read GA#123, as one of its mandates is that gambling facility operators be barred from advertising gambling as a solution to financial problems and from promoting irresponsible gambling practices. To wit:
3. FURTHER MANDATES member countries where gambling advertising is permitted to prohibit Operators from using advertising or marketing techniques to:
• Specifically target individuals on low income or with financial problems, such as debts;
• Present gambling as a solution to financial problems;
• Promote irresponsible gambling or misrepresent the rules of the game;

I honestly fail to see how you can read that as anything short of a ban on precisely the predatory behaviour you are railing against, which, I remind you for the *fourth* time, is already handled by GA#123 and is therefore not within the purview of this resolution."

United Massachusetts wrote:"All your scenarios listed fail to take into account one point--that gambling addiction typically isn't a matter of personal responsibility. Here's what it is--deluded hope for those who have none. There's a reason the poor sucuumb to gambling addiction at higher rates--because they have no other means to get ahead. Gambling or lottery tickets or whatever the issue of the day is, for the poor, is the closest thing some have to a 401K. And it's absolutely abhorrent, because casinos know that. They willingly urge the most vulnerable among us to throw away what little savings they have in the name of 'going big'. We won't allow it in United Massachusetts, and we trust that this Assembly will resist the attempts of corporate fat cats to screw over the poor even more.


"Would it suit you, then, to liken it to banning films and games because some are photosensitive epileptics? What of cake makers? Are they murderers because there are some who are diabetic, for whom eating an entire cake would be dangerous? Should we all ban peanut butter to spare those with peanut allergies? Is my snack for today, coconut crisps, an affront to All That Is Right And Good because there are some who are allergic to coconut?"

"As to the poor having no means to get ahead, perhaps in your own nation, where only lip service and virtue signaling are given to the plight of the poor, the poor have no means other than a false hope of getting ahead, but not in any nation which actually cares for its destitute. Kermanic businesses pay their employees more than table scraps, with the government stepping in in times of need and job loss, and, if your nation truly cared for stopping corporate fat cats, rather than simply denouncing them to hide behind charity as an excuse to ban Things You Don't Like, yours would do the same."

United Massachusetts wrote:And if not, we'll file a legality challenge. And we'll win, and, by the same spirit with which the Hero, born of Woman, crushed the Serpent with His heel, so we too shall crush this serpent, which now stands before us in palpable form--gambling."

"Yes. The results of that "victory" crossed my desk as I was putting the finishing touches on the new draft. Something about the challenge being thrown out on the grounds of GA#68 not working the way you have asserted and the assertion you've made as to how it works not even being a reasonable and legal interpretation?", Sofia grins, "By all means, continue weaponising the system. Well, trying to, anyway. We have no intention of giving you the satisfaction of blocking this resolution by any means other than the good old fashioned manner of getting delegations to vote against it."
Last edited by Jebslund on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:56 am

OOC: Gentle reminder that I am still looking for feedback until such time as this is put on hold or ready to submit...
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Kenmoria
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 7910
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:41 am

"Please put line breaks between the subclauses of the HEREBY MANDATES clause, it is currently a huge wall of text."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

User avatar
Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: May 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Liberimery » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:30 pm

Liberimery does allow for casinos at the state level. All subnational governments allow some form of gambling with each restriction. Due to our tax policies, these institutions are typically are a legitimate way to make additional government revenue for state level government.

I wish to inquire about the reasoning behind slot machines. These are the prototypical games one would usually think of in a casino and is quite typical in some of our more renowned casinos. I find it odd that it is these devices that would be banned but no other games of chance. Electronic slot machines in particular are much easier to regulate as Random Number Generators (RNG) are not truly random but are pseudo-random. With this in mind, it is easy to code the algorithm to produce an average return over successive plays. Federal law mandates all such machines must make an average return of $0.80 for every $1.00 dollar spent to play.

The restrictions on alcohol sales also seem excessive especially since it is easier to eject a person for public intoxication laws than it is for over gambling. Many casinos put bosses in our nation actually use this system to give an excuse to remove a person who may be gambling probamatically.

User avatar
Kenmoria
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 7910
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:26 pm

"Clause 7 seems rather excessive, given that there can be no way to know for sure if someone is a gambling addict without knowing their bank details, and hiring a psychologist just to let someone into the building is going to be extremely costly."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:32 am

Kenmoria wrote:"Please put line breaks between the subclauses of the HEREBY MANDATES clause, it is currently a huge wall of text."


"This will be addressed in the next draft. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.".

Liberimery wrote:Liberimery does allow for casinos at the state level. All subnational governments allow some form of gambling with each restriction. Due to our tax policies, these institutions are typically are a legitimate way to make additional government revenue for state level government.

I wish to inquire about the reasoning behind slot machines. These are the prototypical games one would usually think of in a casino and is quite typical in some of our more renowned casinos. I find it odd that it is these devices that would be banned but no other games of chance. Electronic slot machines in particular are much easier to regulate as Random Number Generators (RNG) are not truly random but are pseudo-random. With this in mind, it is easy to code the algorithm to produce an average return over successive plays. Federal law mandates all such machines must make an average return of $0.80 for every $1.00 dollar spent to play.

The restrictions on alcohol sales also seem excessive especially since it is easier to eject a person for public intoxication laws than it is for over gambling. Many casinos put bosses in our nation actually use this system to give an excuse to remove a person who may be gambling probamatically.


Kenmoria wrote:"Clause 7 seems rather excessive, given that there can be no way to know for sure if someone is a gambling addict without knowing their bank details, and hiring a psychologist just to let someone into the building is going to be extremely costly."


"The reasoning behind slot machine Recommendation 4 is that the corollary to the point you brought up, that they are easier to regulate, is that they are easier to rig as well. The point you brought up is also why said ban is in the Recommendations section and not the Mandates section. A casino can exist without slots, as some within Jebslund do, but some nations may feel that, while other games of chance are acceptable, "one-armed bandits", as the slang term goes, are not. It was something of a compromise.". Sofia takes a sip of water.

"As to your remarks on the restrictions on alcohol sales, you may be surprised to know that not all nations *have* public intoxication laws. Jebslund, to use my home as an example, views such laws as ridiculous. So long as no other laws are being broken, what sense does it make to allow citizens to drink, then arrest them for being drunk? It is seen in Jebslund as a form of entrapment, and, therefore, if someone is breaking the law, they are charged with breaking those laws, but, if a person is drunk, but not breaking any laws, they may be annoying, but they have that right. This, and the fact that casinos in other countries, though clearly not yours, often use intoxication as a means to loosen self-control and encourage the kind of reckless betting that gets gamblers in trouble. The reason it is a Recommendation and not a Mandate is countries like yours with public intoxication laws. You other concern dovetails nicely with the Kenmoria delegation's concern regarding Mandate 7."

"To answer both remarks, it was deemed necessary to err on the side of caution regarding problem gambling, and the hiring of a psychologist was deemed the best way to ensure that gambling addicts do not return to their addiction until and unless they can gamble responsibly. While access to bank accounts helps, there are other signs of gambling addiction, chief among them being hitting a large jackpot and feeling worse, rather than better, because it is not enough to make up for one's losses. These signs, as taught in accordance with Mandate 2, are to be used, as bank records are necessarily not disseminated to casinos and other businesses. So far, such legislation has worked for Jebslund, but we do have universal healthcare, to include mental and behavioural healthcare, so it is the system, rather than citizens or businesses, which bears such cost. Said costs are kept low enough through other laws that, while certainly not free, the cost of such services is affordable to our government and the people who provide those services."
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Edrarin
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 26, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Edrarin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:55 am

"While the Peoples Republic of Edrarin does not consider gambling to be a tolerable activity, we see that it should be left to the peoples republic of Edrarin to consider such legislation on gambling in casinos and such"
Michael Yeltsin
Federal Unions ambassador to the World Assembly

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:33 am

Edrarin wrote:"While the Peoples Republic of Edrarin does not consider gambling to be a tolerable activity, we see that it should be left to the peoples republic of Edrarin to consider such legislation on gambling in casinos and such"

"When dealing with matters of international law, national sovereignty fails as a justification. That has something to do with the fact that international law, by virtue of being, well, *international* law, by its very nature violates the concept of national sovereignty. Does the delegation from the People's Republic have any substantial arguments, or is the delegation simply here to state that it wants to do what it wants because it wants?"
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Edrarin
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 26, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Edrarin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:10 am

Jebslund wrote:
Edrarin wrote:"While the Peoples Republic of Edrarin does not consider gambling to be a tolerable activity, we see that it should be left to the peoples republic of Edrarin to consider such legislation on gambling in casinos and such"

"When dealing with matters of international law, national sovereignty fails as a justification. That has something to do with the fact that international law, by virtue of being, well, *international* law, by its very nature violates the concept of national sovereignty. Does the delegation from the People's Republic have any substantial arguments, or is the delegation simply here to state that it wants to do what it wants because it wants?"

"In your proposal you state this:
2: That businesses wishing to offer Gambling-related services be required to undergo training to recognise signs of gambling addiction, in addition to/accordance with any other such WA mandate
The Peoples Republic of Edrarin is intrigued with this statement. Would you please be able to go into elaboration in this statement on such methods of training would be needed?"
Michael Yeltsin
Federal Unions ambassador to the World Assembly

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:19 am

Edrarin wrote:
Jebslund wrote:"When dealing with matters of international law, national sovereignty fails as a justification. That has something to do with the fact that international law, by virtue of being, well, *international* law, by its very nature violates the concept of national sovereignty. Does the delegation from the People's Republic have any substantial arguments, or is the delegation simply here to state that it wants to do what it wants because it wants?"

"In your proposal you state this:
2: That businesses wishing to offer Gambling-related services be required to undergo training to recognise signs of gambling addiction, in addition to/accordance with any other such WA mandate
The Peoples Republic of Edrarin is intrigued with this statement. Would you please be able to go into elaboration in this statement on such methods of training would be needed?"

"You would need to ask a psychologist. Multiple, considering the multiple species present within the World Assembly. As I am not such a psychologist, I cannot comment on the specific methods, though one would assume it involves education on the signs associated with gambling addiction. GA#123 deals with the subject more thoroughly. This resolution is intended only to deal with the business ethics regarding gambling addiction, not the problem as a whole. The latter is what GA#123 is for."
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: May 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Liberimery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:04 am

Thank you for the clarification. I still take issue with the service of alcohol restrictions as per Mandate 4. I think restrictions in this manner would be difficult if not impossible to enforce.

(OOC: Having only once been to a casino, I'm unsure if this is a legal thing. Certainly every Vegas casino I've seen in movies has someone serving drinks on the floor to players glued to their machines.)

User avatar
Stoskavanya
Envoy
 
Posts: 207
Founded: Aug 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Stoskavanya » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:34 am

4: That no such business may serve alcohol to those who are currently gambling or can reasonably be expected to be gambling

Have you ever been to a casino? Drinking is an indisputable part of the experience.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:19 am

Liberimery wrote:Thank you for the clarification. I still take issue with the service of alcohol restrictions as per Mandate 4. I think restrictions in this manner would be difficult if not impossible to enforce.


"Difficulty of enforcement is no excuse for lack of a needed law. The argument that criminals will always find a way rings hollow when its most vocal proponents tend to only seem to take that view when it comes to laws they dislike. The fact that there will be under-the-table dealing in alcohol does not invalidate a mandate regarding alcohol being served in the hopes of increasing risky betting."

Liberimery wrote:(OOC: Having only once been to a casino, I'm unsure if this is a legal thing. Certainly every Vegas casino I've seen in movies has someone serving drinks on the floor to players glued to their machines.)


[OOC: In the US, it is. Those movies are closer to Truth in Television than you think regarding Vegas casinos, though the people serving drinks aren't as common.]

Stoskavanya wrote:
4: That no such business may serve alcohol to those who are currently gambling or can reasonably be expected to be gambling

Have you ever been to a casino? Drinking is an indisputable part of the experience.


"Yes. Many times. And, given that I am what is commonly referred to as a Teetotaler due to reasons I've previously stated, I find it rather strange that I had so much fun if, as you say, drinking is so vital to the experience. Why, it's almost as if drinking isn't necessary for a good time at the casino... Seems rather silly to me. The idea that alcohol isn't the only source of fun on the planet.".
Last edited by Jebslund on Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: May 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Liberimery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Jebslund wrote:
Liberimery wrote:Thank you for the clarification. I still take issue with the service of alcohol restrictions as per Mandate 4. I think restrictions in this manner would be difficult if not impossible to enforce.


"Difficulty of enforcement is no excuse for lack of a needed law. The argument that criminals will always find a way rings hollow when its most vocal proponents tend to only seem to take that view when it comes to laws they dislike. The fact that there will be under-the-table dealing in alcohol does not invalidate a mandate regarding alcohol being served in the hopes of increasing risky betting."

Liberimery wrote:(OOC: Having only once been to a casino, I'm unsure if this is a legal thing. Certainly every Vegas casino I've seen in movies has someone serving drinks on the floor to players glued to their machines.)


[OOC: In the US, it is. Those movies are closer to Truth in Television than you think regarding Vegas casinos, though the people serving drinks aren't as common.]

Stoskavanya wrote:Have you ever been to a casino? Drinking is an indisputable part of the experience.


"Yes. Many times. And, given that I am what is commonly referred to as a Teetotaler due to reasons I've previously stated, I find it rather strange that I had so much fun if, as you say, drinking is so vital to the experience. Why, it's almost as if drinking isn't necessary for a good time at the casino... Seems rather silly to me. The idea that alcohol isn't the only source of fun on the planet.".


Then it should be removed or recommended only. Just because you do not see the fun in the combined activities does not mean every patron shares your sense of fun. Keep in mind many casinos sell themselves on the myth of casinos in popular culture. Many tourist come to partake in casinos as depicted and want to drink and game at the some time because they find it "cool". It is an essential aspect to our tourist industry. A large number of our tourists come to partake in a casino experience not unlike those depicted in Casino Imperial or Seas 7.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:27 pm

Liberimery wrote:
Jebslund wrote:
"Difficulty of enforcement is no excuse for lack of a needed law. The argument that criminals will always find a way rings hollow when its most vocal proponents tend to only seem to take that view when it comes to laws they dislike. The fact that there will be under-the-table dealing in alcohol does not invalidate a mandate regarding alcohol being served in the hopes of increasing risky betting."



[OOC: In the US, it is. Those movies are closer to Truth in Television than you think regarding Vegas casinos, though the people serving drinks aren't as common.]



"Yes. Many times. And, given that I am what is commonly referred to as a Teetotaler due to reasons I've previously stated, I find it rather strange that I had so much fun if, as you say, drinking is so vital to the experience. Why, it's almost as if drinking isn't necessary for a good time at the casino... Seems rather silly to me. The idea that alcohol isn't the only source of fun on the planet.".


Then it should be removed or recommended only. Just because you do not see the fun in the combined activities does not mean every patron shares your sense of fun. Keep in mind many casinos sell themselves on the myth of casinos in popular culture. Many tourist come to partake in casinos as depicted and want to drink and game at the some time because they find it "cool". It is an essential aspect to our tourist industry. A large number of our tourists come to partake in a casino experience not unlike those depicted in Casino Imperial or Seas 7.


"In a word, no. The reason it is a mandate and not a recommendation is because, unlike slot machines, banning the use of alcohol to take advantage of customers while still allowing it to be served is not something that can possibly be enforced, unlike the presence of alcohol in the casino, which can be enforced, albeit with difficulty. Neither is truly necessary for enjoyment of gambling, and, while slot machine odds can be controlled and regulated, the service of alcohol to those who may legally purchase it cannot except by enforcing a 'public intoxication'-style statute, and loss of inhibitions and impaired judgment happen long before most such statutes would kick in, and neither of these carry signs so obvious that they would be actionable before such a statute kicked in. Therefore, that mandate shall not be moved to recommendations."
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Liberimery
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 402
Founded: May 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Liberimery » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:46 pm

I think it's mandatory nature will abut against WA policies on the regulation of internal commerce. I do not think the WA has the power to regulate the sale of a product in a business establishment to such a degree. I will withdraw my support until such time as mandate 4 is removed.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:43 pm

"Though I will at some point respond to the attacks against my delegation in this thread, the proposal, at present, stands at 6257 characters, far over the character limit."

User avatar
Kenmoria
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 7910
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:04 am

United Massachusetts wrote:"Though I will at some point respond to the attacks against my delegation in this thread, the proposal, at present, stands at 6257 characters, far over the character limit."

"I suggest cutting down the very lengthy preamble to counter this."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:03 am

"Does this let nations to ban or just disallow permits for gambling halls, whether you want to call them casinos or not?"
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

User avatar
First Nightmare
Attaché
 
Posts: 92
Founded: Apr 27, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby First Nightmare » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:40 am

There seems to be a lack of arguments about the following, and it needs to be answered.
How does allowing gambling help the global economic growth, instead of just the local economic growth at the expense of the growth others?
Gambling addiction can only be prevented by outlawing gambling. Yes, not everyone gets a gambling addiction, but that is not important. If a number of people gamble, a lower number of them get addicted. And that lower number is not low.
How can gambling be an ecologically wise allocation of resources?

User avatar
Kenmoria
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 7910
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:38 pm

First Nightmare wrote:There seems to be a lack of arguments about the following, and it needs to be answered.
How does allowing gambling help the global economic growth, instead of just the local economic growth at the expense of the growth others?

Allowing gambling helps the global industry because it is a very successful and profitable market that therefore increases the economy. Whilst other industries may be harmed, this does not outweigh the vast revenues gambling creates. Although this could be put in the proposal's preamble, I don't think it justifies a separate clause.
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

User avatar
First Nightmare
Attaché
 
Posts: 92
Founded: Apr 27, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby First Nightmare » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:35 am

Gambling is a luxury product. What do luxury products do? Right, redistribute wealth.
Who gambles? Not the rich... at least most of the time.
Many poor people do.
Poor people lose even more money.
They use it for gambling instead on more needed things...
including things for the rest of the family.
Money inequality rises.
Money problems rise.
Gambling is addictive.
Addicted people lose all their money, and the money of people close to them.
People without money are a burden upon the society.
People with debt problems are a burden upon the society.
The redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich is a burden for the society.
Gambling is a burden to the society.
Problems in the society reduce economic growth.
Civil unrest, or - may it not happen - civil war is crippling for any economic growth.


Now, you have read all this...
Do you really think that gambling should be forcefully legalized in all member states?

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3071
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:24 am

First Nightmare wrote:Gambling is a luxury product. What do luxury products do? Right, redistribute wealth.

"By that logic, televisions and toys serve only to redistribute wealth."

First Nightmare wrote:Who gambles? Not the rich... at least most of the time.

"Who plays with simple toys rather than expensive animatronics made for children? Not rich people... at least most of the time. Let's ban simple toys."

First Nightmare wrote:Many poor people do.

"Many poor people also eat cheap snack foods and tv dinners instead of fresh, healthy meals. Should those medical traps be banned?"

First Nightmare wrote:Poor people lose even more money.

"Responsible, mentally well poor people who lose said money can afford to. They would not be gambling otherwise. Mental health can be treated, responsibility is not the government's place to enforce. We are a guarantor of the rights of the people, not a nanny forbidding anything that could possibly turn out badly."

First Nightmare wrote:They use it for gambling instead on more needed things...
including things for the rest of the family.

"The responsible, mentally well ones do not. You are treating the worst case scenario as the only possible one."

First Nightmare wrote:Money inequality rises.
Money problems rise.

"Jebslund seems to not have issue with that. Then again, we take care of our ill and teach responsibility, so...

Furthermore, name any luxury good, and there will be a not-insignificant number of people who will pour money better spent on necessities into it. Sports memorabilia, toys, collectibles, arcades, fast food, gaming, collectible card games, rodeo sports, concerts, jewelry, the list goes on. Should we then ban all luxuries as well?"

First Nightmare wrote:Gambling is addictive.
Addicted people lose all their money, and the money of people close to them.

"Not if they receive treatment and are not permitted to gamble in the meantime. Same as an alcoholic, really, and most non-theocratic free nations do not ban alcohol just because there are a lot of alcoholics."

First Nightmare wrote:People without money are a burden upon the society.

"Then raise wages and find ways to control inflation. Employers paying their employees in crumbs and themselves in trucks full of bread do far more damage to the economy and contribute far more to money inequality and the burden of the poor on the government than gambling ever could."

First Nightmare wrote:People with debt problems are a burden upon the society.

"Then ban predatory lending. Require credit card companies to set minimum payments high enough to pay off the principle balance as well as interest in a reasonable amount of time. Require student loans to be as low-interest as possible while still being profitable. Debt problems caused by predatory lending practices such as those far exceed any damage gambling can cause, and Mandate 5 closes any debt wound by barring gambling businesses from loaning money or accepting any loan-based method of payment."

First Nightmare wrote:The redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich is a burden for the society.

"By that logic, the poor should never have to pay any money whatsoever."

First Nightmare wrote:Gambling is a burden to the society.

"Only if mismanaged and permitted to become corrupt and predatory."

First Nightmare wrote:Problems in the society reduce economic growth.

"Yes, things like terrorism, class warfare, the hoarding of money by the wealthy, predatory and/or shortsighted lending, predatory business practices in general, corruption, and loss of faith in the government *do* stifle economic growth. I fail to see what that has to do with a properly managed gambling industry."

First Nightmare wrote:Civil unrest, or - may it not happen - civil war is crippling for any economic growth.

"I know of no civil war caused by gambling. Nor am I aware of any significant civil unrest caused by gambling. This leads me to believe the First Nightmare delegation is attempting to use hyperbole to argue against legalisation of a diversion they find personally distasteful, rather than one they find truly detrimental."

First Nightmare wrote:Now, you have read all this...
Do you really think that gambling should be forcefully legalized in all member states?


"Considering every relevant point you've raised is dealt with in this resolution or GA#123, yes, I rather do. Legal, properly regulated gambling can benefit the economy on every level. Illegal, unregulated gambling, on the other hand, is purely harmful, with no useful benefits. Legalisation of gambling would greatly diminish the incentive to run illegal gambling operations."

[OOC: Replies to the other responses are forthcoming, peeps. Please wait warmly. Also, italics removed for simplicity.]
Last edited by Jebslund on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Uan aa Boa
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1130
Founded: Apr 23, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Uan aa Boa » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:49 pm

Jebslund wrote:"When dealing with matters of international law, national sovereignty fails as a justification. That has something to do with the fact that international law, by virtue of being, well, *international* law, by its very nature violates the concept of national sovereignty. Does the delegation from the People's Republic have any substantial arguments, or is the delegation simply here to state that it wants to do what it wants because it wants?"

While the Assembly certainly can overrule national law it doesn't follow that it always should. Good resolutions either deal with an international issue (e.g. the current vote on cultural artefacts) or lay down basic standards on matters that are fundamental (e.g. freedom of expression) or simple and non-contentious (e.g. the next vote on asbestos). International law has no business regulating minutia such as whether casinos can have bars in them.

User avatar
Kenmoria
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 7910
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:23 pm

"I agree that there exists a problem with clause 4, about alcohol, but it is easily loopholed. Note how the proposal specifically legalises casinos that do not sell any alcohol, but never explicitly bans those that do. All the proposal currently says is that member nations can only be forced to legalise gambling if said gambling involves no alcohol. Currently, the proposal does not ban facilities that do not meet the nine criteria."
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General Assembly

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ShirayukiM

Advertisement

Remove ads