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[DRAFT] Preventing Financial Crises

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:12 am

I'm looking through ABF's comments. There are some sections which I have fundamental disagreement with. Foremost, the General Fund is not funded by voluntary donations. It is funded with assessments. I'm not a fan of the quote wall, so I'll deal with each section in turn.

Whether the income streams are sold or the assets themselves is a semantic difference. I initially cautioned on the side of the derived streams due to some national sovereignty concerns. Since those have been entirely ignored, I'm fine to say the assets themselves.

Strength is not determined by how you act on some matter. It is determined by its breadth. This is a mild proposal under that paradigm.

The Facility cannot really contribute to systemic financial risk insofar as it has the backing of the government. Certainly, some policy actions may be less than optimal, but that would be contingent primarily on internal decision making.

The Facility should have discretion to act or not to act. The alternative creates moral hazard problems. The conditions of eligibility are declared. And the contractual terms of liquidity support are also contingent on policymakers. I think that isn't a problem. Regarding 3(c), the sale of equity capital would raise money. Or the sale of assets in return for cash would similarly raise money. Moreover, I would highly prefer that the Facility should receive treatment pari passu with senior preferred equity, since it would be government's (and formerly creditor's) money. But claimant structures aren't detailed in this resolution.

Erithaca, your comments should start with 'We', not 'Us'.

Essu Beti, if you want to play oppression or primitivity Olympics, this isn't the place. And anyone can create puppets that will win. Same thing to anyone who wants to play FT planned economy Olympics.



Banana, half the things you're describing are adjectives which are self-referential. "Risk transference mechanism" means a mechanism which transfers risk. The only thing which I think is actually unapt is 'financialise', which is new enough of a word that I've never seen it outside finance. But when I wake up and BBC is telling me about the UK Government selling a new tranche of RBS stock in the headline, this simply isn't incomprehensible.

CD, if you want to really use the Flesch-Kincaid tests, then that's not hard to game. There's a formula,

    Image
Unfortunately, I can't size it – Wikipedia determines the sizing.

And (1) breaking up commas and clauses into new sentences and (2) introducing more short words is the easiest way to do that. But that ignores the more fundamental problem with it: applying this kind of test isn't dispositive with the amount of information that is given. If I applied something like this to Chinese, which has few syllables due to the use of tones, the most complicated sentences would receive significantly lower rankings than comparable ones in English. Similarly, the use of compound words in German (Oberstabsbootsmann for Master Chief Petty Officer seems reasonably egregious, scoring 67.4 against the English's 8.4) would massively inflate scores whilst doing little to increase the amount of information contained. The use of nominatives in finance does something similar.

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Desmosthenes and Burke
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Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:49 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:CD, if you want to really use the Flesch-Kincaid tests, then that's not hard to game. There's a formula,

[redacted]

And (1) breaking up commas and clauses into new sentences and (2) introducing more short words is the easiest way to do that. But that ignores the more fundamental problem with it: applying this kind of test isn't dispositive with the amount of information that is given. If I applied something like this to Chinese, which has few syllables due to the use of tones, the most complicated sentences would receive significantly lower rankings than comparable ones in English. Similarly, the use of compound words in German (Oberstabsbootsmann for Master Chief Petty Officer seems reasonably egregious, scoring 67.4 against the English's 8.4) would massively inflate scores whilst doing little to increase the amount of information contained. The use of nominatives in finance does something similar.


Congratulations on writing an entirely meaningless argument. Said test intended to apply solely to English, and is valid solely as applied to English*. How German or Chinese would score is entirely irrelevant and you know it (or should know it if your pedanticism level remotely correlates to your intelligence). Intentional misrepresentation is not a good way of convincing anyone of your point.

[spoiler=*source]
La formula di Flesch serve a misurare la leggibilità di un testo in inglese.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_di_Flesch
[/spoiler]

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:01 am

Did you not read the last sentence? Or is it too short?

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A Bright Future
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Postby A Bright Future » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:23 am

Imperium Anglorum you make some valid concessions which are much appreciated. There are still serious problems with this but I won't continue reviewing and remain fundamentally opposed until you amend the proposal to make it more accessible for us and legal under language rules. Also, please game the Flesch Kincaid test as much as possible given how easy it is.

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Essu Beti
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Postby Essu Beti » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:04 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Essu Beti, if you want to play oppression or primitivity Olympics, this isn't the place. And anyone can create puppets that will win. Same thing to anyone who wants to play FT planned economy Olympics.


OOC: I'm not playing any sort of misery poker or Olympics. I'm having my character respond ICly to your ambassador responding to a valid concern by bragging about the education standards in his country. Why you felt the need to respond OOCly instead of ICly (like you should have!) I have no idea.
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The Ambassador of Essu Beti is Iksana Gayan and he's an elf. He's irritable and a bit of a troll and it's been suggested that he's only the ambassador to keep him out of Essu Beti.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 pm

Essu Beti wrote:OOC: I'm not playing any sort of misery poker or Olympics. I'm having my character respond ICly to your ambassador responding to a valid concern by bragging about the education standards in his country. Why you felt the need to respond OOCly instead of ICly (like you should have!) I have no idea.

I would characterise my ambassador as more concerned about the state of education in your country than proud of those in mine. If you read my Factbooks, the opposition party (before the war at least) built most of their platform about the current government's perceived underfunding of job transition and reeducation (perhaps a better term is reskilling, reeducation sounds a bit too Maoist) programmes. A realistic portrayal of early-20th, and contemporary, century politics would invite such criticism, especially in light of increased globalisation in that period and in recent times.

You seem to stress this strange attachment to in-character responses. I've taken an increasingly negative view of them, especially in light of the use of such responses as a shield against moderation and a means to godmode around problems that would realistically exist. Gruen seemingly had this romanticised vision of the past where everyone was in character and somehow it was fantastic. I don't buy that. I don't know what he was referring to. Nor do I think it realistic that it returns. But this entire thing isn't really something for this thread.

However, if you really want an IC response:

    ELSIE MORTIMER WELLESLEY: If you really have this barter economy, you should have a fundamentally sound conception of microeconomic principles that map directly to capital markets insofar as you conceive of what is being sold, that is time-differentiated money, as a good rather than a medium of exchange in of itself. Also, if your economy is so weak, we should really hop on some ships and plant some colonies on your soil. It might do you some good. Introducing money into your society would at least solve the coincidence of wants.
Following it would probably be dismissive remark about how primitives that don't know of money should not presume that everyone else is a backward preliterate and then require that everyone else engorge themselves in a Luddite fantasy tearing down the products of their civilisation destroying themselves to match their subsistence. Then some choice remarks about how there might possibly be noble savages, but for a self-respecting civilisation bearing a responsibility to protect (heh, heh, one might even say a Mantle of Responsibility), actually becoming one is an invitation to slaughter against the superior firepower of one's imperial foes and abrogation of a society's responsibilities to protect its lessers.

But that would be in-character and that is what in-character would allow, abet, and create, especially in an Assembly apparently enamoured with empires, authoritarian democracies, totalitarian space communists, and the like. It doesn't help in discourse or further any proposals because there is always a bigger fish. Watch tGSD walk into here and brag to us all about his godmode techwank super weapons and how they defeat everyone else in the Assembly. Or someone to say that they have a supercomputer run their economy without providing any rationale that belief, absent the assertion that a supercomputer can somehow solve the optimisation problem that is not just running one firm, but running all firms, all without price signals or shortage/surplus information.

EDIT: Or for UFoC to come back, do some straight up flaming, and then hide behind 'in-character' remarks.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Essu Beti
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Postby Essu Beti » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:39 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:I would characterise my ambassador as more concerned about the state of education in your country than proud of those in mine. If you read my Factbooks, the opposition party (before the war at least) built most of their platform about the current government's perceived underfunding of job transition and reeducation (perhaps a better term is reskilling, reeducation sounds a bit too Maoist) programmes. A realistic portrayal of early-20th, and contemporary, century politics would invite such criticism, especially in light of increased globalisation in that period and in recent times.


OOC: I can see how you meant it that way, but it really did come across as “In my country we have standards.” At least, I hope you can see how my character heard it that way.

You seem to stress this strange attachment to in-character responses. I've taken an increasingly negative view of them, especially in light of the use of such responses as a shield against moderation and a means to godmode around problems that would realistically exist. Gruen seemingly had this romanticised vision of the past where everyone was in character and somehow it was fantastic. I don't buy that. I don't know what he was referring to. Nor do I think it realistic that it returns. But this entire thing isn't really something for this thread.


OOC: I like in-character because I’m a roleplayer, and roleplaying doesn’t really work when everyone’s jumping OOC left and right. Especially when said OOC jumping jars you out of your character’s mindset and breaks immersion. The latter especially is like getting sucked into a really good book and then having someone yank that book out of your hands.

However, if you really want an IC response:

    ELSIE MORTIMER WELLESLEY: If you really have this barter economy, you should have a fundamentally sound conception of microeconomic principles that map directly to capital markets insofar as you conceive of what is being sold, that is time-differentiated money, as a good rather than a medium of exchange in of itself. Also, if your economy is so weak, we should really hop on some ships and plant some colonies on your soil. It might do you some good. Introducing money into your society would at least solve the coincidence of wants.
Following it would probably be dismissive remark about how primitives that don't know of money should not presume that everyone else is a backward preliterate and then require that everyone else engorge themselves in a Luddite fantasy tearing down the products of their civilisation destroying themselves to match their subsistence. Then some choice remarks about how there might possibly be noble savages, but for a self-respecting civilisation bearing a responsibility to protect (heh, heh, one might even say a Mantle of Responsibility), actually becoming one is an invitation to slaughter against the superior firepower of one's imperial foes and abrogation of a society's responsibilities to protect its lessers.


OOC: I can’t give a full IC response because I don’t have exactly what your ambassador said in the latter half, but Inan would give a very short history of why they’re a barter economy (basically, they don’t have the resources to mint their own money and using foreign money is restricted to using that which tourists bring in, since most of the Betians spent all the cash they had just to get to the island), wonder out loud why Wellesley thinks that simply asking for things to be phrased not in jargon is some kind of Luddite ‘tear it all down!’ movement, and then say that she suspects the WA nations that are already helping Essu Beti would take severe offense to colony ships trying to squeeze through the portal to the island.

But that would be in-character and that is what in-character would allow, abet, and create, especially in an Assembly apparently enamoured with empires, authoritarian democracies, totalitarian space communists, and the like. It doesn't help in discourse or further any proposals because there is always a bigger fish. Watch tGSD walk into here and brag to us all about his godmode techwank super weapons and how they defeat everyone else in the Assembly. Or someone to say that they have a supercomputer run their economy without providing any rationale that belief, absent the assertion that a supercomputer can somehow solve the optimisation problem that is not just running one firm, but running all firms, all without price signals or shortage/surplus information.

EDIT: Or for UFoC to come back, do some straight up flaming, and then hide behind 'in-character' remarks.


OOC: There’s a reason I tend to avoid all the hot-button topic proposal threads. It’s extremely frustrating to watch what should be an ambassador roleplay thread turn into a veiled OOC thread fit more for General than the General Assembly.

However, I think you may be jumping the gun a little. Not everyone who has an outlier primitive or powerful nation is trying a race to the bottom or top. I make unusual nations just because they’re more interesting to play than Western First World Nation #314.

But, to get back to the proposal topic: Thank you for reducing the jargon density. I still need a Google search or a few seconds puzzling to get through some of the words and phrases (“tranche” tripped me up, and I’m still not sure what “negative shock transmission” means), but it’s on the whole much more readable.
Parent: Naqil Puppet: This City of Ours. Trust Factbooks, not stats.

The Ambassador of Essu Beti is Iksana Gayan and he's an elf. He's irritable and a bit of a troll and it's been suggested that he's only the ambassador to keep him out of Essu Beti.

Everything I say in the WA is IC unless otherwise specified. Iksana is a tactless jerk and I would never say the same things he does to someone IRL.

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Erithaca
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Postby Erithaca » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:29 am

A good way to make the proposal more simple would be to define technical terms in simple language in a separate clause at the start.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:35 am

"How would The Facility determine if a bank is genuinely insolvent under clause 3c? Without some precognition, I can't see a way for it to reliably know if anything will be able to pay off debt; banks in particular are quite volatile and changeable so a small shift in the market could make one much more successful. However, I do like the current state of the draft, it looks to be understandable to the normal person."
Last edited by Kenmoria on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cosmopolitan borovan
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Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:47 am

This is better now. Unlike before this new draft is in understandable English.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:12 pm

Kenmoria wrote:"How would The Facility determine if a bank is genuinely insolvent under clause 3c? Without some precognition, I can't see a way for it to reliably know if anything will be able to pay off debt; banks in particular are quite volatile and changeable so a small shift in the market could make one much more successful. However, I do like the current state of the draft, it looks to be understandable to the normal person."

If their illiquid assets are worth more than their outstanding liabilities. Otherwise, for liquidity, it's basically a question of cash flow. And cash flow is pretty simple a matter to resolve with a policy like this.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:36 pm

“This draft now has this delagation’s support for the future. However, clause 3bi should have a finishing comma like 3ai - 3aiii.”
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:48 am

No, it shouldn't. It's a two-element list. Two-element lists don't have commas.

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Schutzenphalia and West Ruhntuhnkuhnland
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Postby Schutzenphalia and West Ruhntuhnkuhnland » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:22 am

“I don’t want to get into a protracted argument about proposal format, because my drafting aides assure me the delegation from Imperial Angles have some very firm views on such matters we’re unlikely to sway, but there are a few areas that could be rewritten for clarity.

“I personally dislike the practice of invoking a committee before it’s been established. If the clause establishing the CSF came before the clause allowing the sale of products to it, I’d prefer that.

“There are a couple of small typos in our print-out: in what is currently clause 2 (a), ‘the maintenance of its products’; and in 3 (a) (iv), ‘believes useful in determining an’.

“Clause 3 seems to mix its references when it comes to ‘it’. ‘[I]t’, in subclause (a), refers to the financial institution; ‘it’, in subclause (b), refers to the CSF. It would be clearer if these references were harmonised, either by rewriting 3 (a) so that the references to ‘it’ are to ‘the institution’ (my preferred option); or by rewriting 3 (b) so that the references to ‘it’ are to ‘the Facility’.

“I am generally suspicious of words like ‘reasonable’ in international law, especially in clause 1. It would be better to define the parameters of reason (for example, although I’m not proposing this specific wording, ‘that are not contrary to the stated purposes of this resolution’). Similarly, I am not familiar with the construction ‘reasonable normal market rates’ or why the qualifier beyond ‘normal’ is needed.

“Obviously, such trivial matters wouldn’t determine my nation’s eventual vote.”

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:08 pm

ELSIE MORTIMER WELLESLEY: Regarding invocation of a committee before its declaration, I want to require first, the sale of the assets. That's a matter I think, best dealt with off the back. Without it, there's not really anything for the Facility to do.

I'll have the copy-editors in the delegation correct the errors and ambiguities you described.

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Jarish Inyo
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Postby Jarish Inyo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:31 pm

How would this affect nations that do not have banks or loans?
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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:27 am

Jarish Inyo wrote:How would this affect nations that do not have banks or loans?


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OOC: Seriously, even the USSR and the PRC have/had central banks. The only type of government that can realistically get on without any banking whatsoever is a Borg collective. I know your go-to is "The Empire will not [insert goal of resolution here] because [increasingly unbelievable self-sufficiency/national sovereignty]," but this time it's ridiculous. If the WA mandated the building of roads and trains, your response would be "The Empire will not submit to these ridiculous construction requirements. We use dirt roads, mechanical stilts, and hoverbikes and get along just fine." I know we're pretty tolerant of different kinds of RP around here (at any rate, I try to be), but if you're going to insist on this constant borderline godmoding, I don't even know why you bother.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:09 pm

OOC: Opposed unless this gets translated to English. Again, we aren't all professional economists here.
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:52 pm

Wallenburg wrote:OOC: Opposed unless this gets translated to English. Again, we aren't all professional economists here.

OOC: Basically this.
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Sciongrad
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Postby Sciongrad » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:OOC: Opposed unless this gets translated to English. Again, we aren't all professional economists here.

OOC: Basically this.

OOC: This proposal is definitely jargon heavy and could include maybe some definitions for clarification for players that aren't familiar with economics (e.g., "tranched," "uncorrelated asset," etc.), but at the same time, this is a policy game, and sometimes, you need to do a little bit of research to participate fully. IA doesn't have the space to define every term he uses here, and he definitely shouldn't replace many of these terms with less precise terms. Frankly, this is just one of those policy areas that, even if it were written in plainer English, you wouldn't be able to debate substantively without doing a little bit of background research.

Basically, I support making the test clearer by defining terms when possible. But I don't think you can get this proposal anyway unless you know what things like illiquidity crisis and financial risk entail.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:46 pm

Bump.

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Cosmopolitan borovan
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Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:41 pm

I think there's improvement in clause 3 but some of it looks not understandable to an ambassador without prerequisite knowledge

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:31 am

Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:I think there's improvement in clause 3 but some of it looks not understandable to an ambassador without prerequisite knowledge
I disagree, it looks fine to me in terms of language, and would become dangerously imprecise if the language was reduced further. I do have a suggestion for the author though, that clause 4 is reworded to make it clear that the ‘not’ applies only to ‘sensitive’ and not to ‘helpful’.
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Currently centre-right on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts our democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:49 am

"Regarding the question of whether the wording used here is too technical, Gurrgle Translate actually gives 'Strongroom' as the suggested Ursine equivalent for 'Securisation Facility'."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:41 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:I think there's improvement in clause 3 but some of it looks not understandable to an ambassador without prerequisite knowledge
I disagree, it looks fine to me in terms of language, and would become dangerously imprecise if the language was reduced further. I do have a suggestion for the author though, that clause 4 is reworded to make it clear that the ‘not’ applies only to ‘sensitive’ and not to ‘helpful’.

Thanks, done.

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