[PASSED] Ban on Conversion Therapy

[Tinhampton]

ICly, the Delegate-Ambassador and his Assistant have agreed to vote AGAINST this resolution, due to what they describe as "a strong infringement on national and personal freedoms." (OOCly, I do harbour strong objections to conversion therapy.)

[Thuzbekistan]

It's odd that this would be banned. I understand its negative effects, but perhaps banning mandatory conversion therapy would be better than banning all of it?

But eh, I'll just vote against. Carry on.

[Joeyists]

Im Seeing This

[Sierra Lyricalia]

This is now At Vote.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

ICly, the Delegate-Ambassador and his Assistant have agreed to vote AGAINST this resolution, due to what they describe as "a strong infringement on national and personal freedoms." (OOCly, I do harbour strong objections to conversion therapy.)

((oOOC: This is a problem when I'm trying to express this in other regions, of course I'd support a ban but...))

IC:
The Haven believes that it is both the right of a parent to decide upon his or her childs healthcare and education, and that the world assembly should not get involved in the minutii of social affairs. For this reason we are unable to support this proposal.

[Grenartia]

One-half of GIDC patients are suicidal, and a majority of them will eventually reidentify with their biological sex.

Which doesn't justify torturing them to make it happen faster, especially when said torture will certainly increase the suicide risk, even after any possible "reidentification".

If a child psychiatrist sought, in an appropriate case, to hasten that reidentification,

You're presuming that said reidentification is the desireable outcome in every case, based simply on the assumption that that outcome happens the majority of the time. To say nothing of the inherent ethical concerns in coercively (there will probably be some dispute over this, so allow me to preempt it by saying that 95% of patients seeking treatment will be coerced, and the remaining 5% would be impossible to distinguish from the other 95%) controlling somebody's sense of identity.

at the same time eliminating the GIDC patient's suicidal thoughts, that would be a perfectly appropriate treatment.

Eliminating suicidal thoughts in the patient, without attempting to influence their identity, using only scientifically proven methods of treatment, is the only ethically appropriate treatment.

A blanket ban is a step too far. There is no scientific evidence favoring such a ban. What if a GIDC patient, under something like a mature minor doctrine, wants psychotherapy to help him adjust to his biological sex? What would be the problem?

There's no scientific evidence that the so-called treatment actually works. Its like drinking polonium cyanide to cure a case of the flu. No medical ethics board in its right mind would allow it, because the harm so grievously and universally outweighs the non-existent benefits.

[Snowman]

Against. The proposal acts as of it is helping, but bans therapists from helping minors find an identity

[Francoli]

A barbaric practice that is long past its end date which offers no advantage to the state.

[Libervalley]

The nation of Libervalley strongly opposes this resolution as it represents everything that is wrong with the General Assembly. The interest of this resolution is not for the best interests of individuals but rather the best interests of those on the left who cannot tolerate opposing opinions and personal choices. Not only are the interests in a bad place the resolution infringes on national and regional sovereignty. The purpose in banning what is labeled as “Conversion Therapy” is not to help people but to suppress any opposing opinion about human sexuality and prevent anyone from accessing any kind of services that might not promote homosexual lifestyles. It may be stated that it is a minority that needs to be protected from oppression however I would counter is not the individual the ultimate minority and is not the General Assembly with such resolutions oppressing individual’s choices?

There are some studies that show 70% of teens that state they have homosexual attractions later say they are exclusively heterosexual. To suggest in general that parents do not know what is best for their children, that teens/children know what is best for themselves is at the most the pinnacle of tyranny of the state and the least child abuse. There are people who chose to leave the homosexual lifestyle and move to a heterosexual lifestyle. These mere facts and the lack of hard scientific evidence of “being born gay” demonstrate the lack of interest in rational positions on the issue. Those in the affirmative do not want their world view to be challenged in any way. This resolution with this position leads to the path that humans are to be nothing more than asexual beings with no boundaries to identity as if that is the virtuous end of mankind. I contend the virtue of mankind is the light that this resolution is running away from.

[Mihaiteren]

"I would like to point out a potential drawback you may have missed in drafting this bill. You see, we in Mihaiteren execute people who engage in homosexual intercourse, or who engage in crossdressing or mutilate their genitals in order to become more like the opposite sex. You may call our conversion therapy programs 'torture' or 'brainwashing,' but it keeps those poor people alive and helps purify their souls. If we are not allowed to help them overcome their sinful urges, then we will be forced to execute far more of them when they almost inevitably succumb to those urges. Despite what you may think, we do not like to execute our citizens. However, it is the only moral alternative to conversion therapy. Thus, if you truly care for the lives of these poor souls, and not simply for pushing your degenerate ideology, even those who support such sinful acts should oppose this bill."

[Separatist Peoples]

"I would like to point out a potential drawback you may have missed in drafting this bill. You see, we in Mihaiteren execute people who engage in homosexual intercourse, or who engage in crossdressing or mutilate their genitals in order to become more like the opposite sex. You may call our conversion therapy programs 'torture' or 'brainwashing,' but it keeps those poor people alive and helps purify their souls. If we are not allowed to help them overcome their sinful urges, then we will be forced to execute far more of them when they almost inevitably succumb to those urges. Despite what you may think, we do not like to execute our citizens. However, it is the only moral alternative to conversion therapy. Thus, if you truly care for the lives of these poor souls, and not simply for pushing your degenerate ideology, even those who support such sinful acts should oppose this bill."

"Literally none of this is legal within the WA."

[Mihaiteren]

"Literally none of this is legal within the WA."

"Perhaps. But we have nukes, compulsory military service, and one of the most advanced militaries in the world. Who, exactly, is going to stop us?"

(OOC: Just take a look at my country's policies. For all the talk of the World Assembly being apparently so much better at enforcing its decrees on its member nations than the UN... Yeah, not so much.)

[Wallenburg]

"Literally none of this is legal within the WA."

"Perhaps. But we have nukes, compulsory military service, and one of the most advanced militaries in the world. Who, exactly, is going to stop us?"

(OOC: Just take a look at my country's policies. For all the talk of the World Assembly being apparently so much better at enforcing its decrees on its member nations than the UN... Yeah, not so much.)

If you are going to explicitly RP noncompliance, why should anyone here lend their attention to your opinions about this resolution?

[Mihaiteren]

If you are going to explicitly RP noncompliance, why should anyone here lend their attention to your opinions about this resolution?

I wouldn't expect you to unless it was in-character for your delegate to listen to someone of my delegate's opinions. However, that doesn't mean my delegate would keep quiet. He's like Nigel Farage - there to hurl abuse at the other representatives, cast dissenting votes, and make his opinions very clearly known even if nobody else in the European Parliament (or World Assembly, in this case) cares what he has to say.

[Prydania]

If you are going to explicitly RP noncompliance, why should anyone here lend their attention to your opinions about this resolution?

I wouldn't expect you to unless it was in-character for your delegate to listen to someone of my delegate's opinions. However, that doesn't mean my delegate would keep quiet. He's like Nigel Farage - there to hurl abuse at the other representatives, cast dissenting votes, and make his opinions very clearly known even if nobody else in the European Parliament (or World Assembly, in this case) cares what he has to say.

OOC: A lot of people don’t like Nigel Farage. You ought to realize that intentionally trying to bully or otherwise antagonize people here will see pushback.

From an IC perspective? If you so blatantly ignore the laws passed by the WA why should anyone let you have a say in how it’s governed?
Now you say that in your country LGBT peoples are killed all the time and therefore conversion therapy saves lives. Two things.
First. No one is going to hold up the WA’s affairs because one state is holding a minority population hostage. You’re likely to face other IC repercussions.
Secondly. You claim to have one of the most advanced militaries in the world. So what? This is NS. That doesn’t matter. I could claim I have a Death Star. It’s a useless statement.

Learn how to conduct yourself appropriately if you expect anyone to take what you have to say seriously.

[Shaktirajya]

We, the People's Hindu Matriarchy of Shaktirajya, wholeheartedly support this resolution. We find the practice of "conversion therapy" to be barbaric, uncultured, and inhumane in the highest order. Indeed, the proponents of this practice are savage barbarians, nay, human filth.

Vaktaha Samajavadinaha Matarajasya Shaktirajasya

[Mihaiteren]

OOC: A lot of people don’t like Nigel Farage. You ought to realize that intentionally trying to bully or otherwise antagonize people here will see pushback.

From an IC perspective? If you so blatantly ignore the laws passed by the WA why should anyone let you have a say in how it’s governed?
Now you say that in your country LGBT peoples are killed all the time and therefore conversion therapy saves lives. Two things.
First. No one is going to hold up the WA’s affairs because one state is holding a minority population hostage. You’re likely to face other IC repercussions.
Secondly. You claim to have one of the most advanced militaries in the world. So what? This is NS. That doesn’t matter. I could claim I have a Death Star. It’s a useless statement.

Learn how to conduct yourself appropriately if you expect anyone to take what you have to say seriously.

I realize a lot of people don't like Farage. And I also realize a lot of people won't like Prince Andrew II (my delegate). But he's a noble from a fiercely nationalistic, traditionalist, religious country. It really wouldn't fit Mihaiteren to have any other type of person as its delegate.

As for why a country that ignores the decrees of the WA would be allowed to participate in it: Well, presumably for the same reason Saudi Arabia is on the UN Human Rights Council. No idea why that is, but it doesn't seem any less ridiculous than Mihaiteren being a WA member.

I realize very few people are going to care what Mihaiteren does within its borders or what its rulers think, aside from maybe to throw sanctions its way and turn it into an international pariah. However, that doesn't mean that wouldn't be something Prince Andrew wouldn't bring up.

And I take my basis of having one of the world's most advanced militaries from the fact that the official rankings put Mihaiteren in the top seven percent. And yes,I realize that with the size of NS, that means there's more than 10,000 countries more advanced than me. But again, it's still something Prince Andrew would bring up.

So, are my delegate and country banned from existing in NationStates or participating in the WA or something, or am I supposed to act OOC when here?

[The Atlae Isles]

So, are my delegate and country banned from existing in NationStates or participating in the WA or something, or am I supposed to act OOC when here?

Basically, it's good convention to follow WA rules once in the WA. RPing noncompliance is possible, but it doesn't look good.

And yeah, why would we try to satisfy a nation that doesn't even follow the rules anyway?

[The East Pacific WA Ministry]

World Assembly Vote Recommendation

Resolution at Vote: "Ban on Conversion Therapy"

Resolution Summary: This proposed resolution does exactly what it says it does--bans the practice of conversion therapy and all attempts to forcibly alter the gender identity or sexual orientation of an individual (when performed on minors), while permitting adults to seek out conversion therapy on their own, whilst forbidding governments from engaging in it on anyone. The proposal is widely supported.

Vote Recommendation: The proposal at vote seeks to ban conversion therapy, a pseudoscientific, ineffective practice designed to forcibly change a young person's sexual orientation or gender identity. Conversion therapy leaves lasting emotional and physical trauma on its victims, LGBT+ youth. Because conversion therapy is ineffective, since sexual orientation and gender identity are not choices, and because it exploits vulnerable LGBT+ youth, it is quite logical and compassionate to ban it.

Opinion Authored by: The Atlae Isles, World Assembly Affairs Staffer for The East Pacific.

Vote Recommendation: FOR

The dispatch version of this can be viewed here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1070517
We would urge all supportive nations to upvote it.

[The Atlae Isles]

Can confirm that I wrote this IFV, especially after the flak that UM received for writing it last time.

[United Massachusetts]

Can confirm that I wrote this IFV, especially after the flak that UM received for writing it last time.

[Prydania]

OOC: A lot of people don’t like Nigel Farage. You ought to realize that intentionally trying to bully or otherwise antagonize people here will see pushback.

From an IC perspective? If you so blatantly ignore the laws passed by the WA why should anyone let you have a say in how it’s governed?
Now you say that in your country LGBT peoples are killed all the time and therefore conversion therapy saves lives. Two things.
First. No one is going to hold up the WA’s affairs because one state is holding a minority population hostage. You’re likely to face other IC repercussions.
Secondly. You claim to have one of the most advanced militaries in the world. So what? This is NS. That doesn’t matter. I could claim I have a Death Star. It’s a useless statement.

Learn how to conduct yourself appropriately if you expect anyone to take what you have to say seriously.

I realize a lot of people don't like Farage. And I also realize a lot of people won't like Prince Andrew II (my delegate). But he's a noble from a fiercely nationalistic, traditionalist, religious country. It really wouldn't fit Mihaiteren to have any other type of person as its delegate.

OOC: And my nation went through periods of both far left and far right dictatorships. Kind of soured Prydania on either "extreme traditionalism and nationalism" or "extreme socialism and collectivism."
Doesn't really matter though, because I don't use that to act like a knob in the WA. I use other factors to justify acting like a knob

My point is that this is a RP simulation. Plenty of people here wish someone would tell Farage to STFU, but no one does because the European Parliament has certain standards of decorum. If you're bringing that here? Plenty of people who wish European MPs would verbally slap Farage will verbally slap you.

Now maybe that's what you want. And if it is? Hey. You do you. I'm just saying that you won't manage to actually influence policy if you set out to antagonize people.

As for why a country that ignores the decrees of the WA would be allowed to participate in it: Well, presumably for the same reason Saudi Arabia is on the UN Human Rights Council. No idea why that is, but it doesn't seem any less ridiculous than Mihaiteren being a WA member.

Again, this is a simulation. So people tend to skew towards the idealistic side of how things should work. You can RP non-compliance, but again. It'll hamper your ability to have even a small degree of influence.
If you brazenly are violating WA law (and you are if you're killing LGBT folks) then it says your government has no respect for WA law. And if your government has no respect for WA law than why should anyone else in the WA allow you to shape WA policy?

And I take my basis of having one of the world's most advanced militaries from the fact that the official rankings put Mihaiteren in the top seven percent. And yes,I realize that with the size of NS, that means there's more than 10,000 countries more advanced than me. But again, it's still something Prince Andrew would bring up.

The thing about NS stats is that they quickly get very ridiculous. Many people don't even take NS stats into account when they RP, and just choose more reasonable numbers. Others, however, do use NS stats.
So some RPers are going to laugh at the notion that you use NS stats in the first place, and others are going to laugh because there are thousands of other WA nations with NS military stats that dwarf yours.

"It's something Prince Andrew would bring up."
I'm sure it would be, and he'd be laughed at.

So, are my delegate and country banned from existing in NationStates or participating in the WA or something, or am I supposed to act OOC when here?

You can do both. Just mark OOC comments with "OOC" at the beginning of the post.

And my point isn't to say you're "banned" from existing in NS or the WA. Hell, the WA is only one part of NS. You can play this game many ways without even joining the WA.
My point is to say that blatant, antagonistic WA non-compliance within the WA will leave you pretty isolated. You won't be able to influence policy because most WA members will go "why should you have a say in WA policy if you don't even follow it?"

Again, I'm not saying you can't RP non-compliance, just that doing so usually puts you in a tough position.

[Communaccord]

You know what...after reading this resolution it dawned on me...Why can’t nationstates have an official arcane aspect? I mean if my nation decides to hell with technology, let’s have a wizard do it, then why not?

PS: Yeah this is may be a bit off topic, but it just made me realize how weird the world assembly would get if the concerns of magic wielding nations were seriously considered.

I mean take sex reassignment surgery, in a magic nation,* poof*, your a man! What you didn’t ask to be man? My mistake, *poof* your a woman!

Heck animal identities could be fully possible...

[Communaccord]

On a more serious note, what does mild mean for enforcement? It’s banned, but not really, or something like this just eliminates the more severe methods, but toned down approaches can slide by the radar?

[Jainun]

While the Taiyo Teikoku of Jainun (Jainun) understands the perceived justice behind the resolution currently at vote within the World Assembly (WA), Jainun questions the overreaching effects this resolution would have on the civil liberties of consenting adults who wish to participate in Conversion Therapy (CT). While Jainun recognizes the severe negative mental impact CT can have on minors and understands that there is no evidence CT works effectively as intended, a blanket ban should be reconsidered and the resolution reworked to ban AND condemn the usage of both state sponsored and privatized CT on minors, but leave the free will of consenting adults intact. Jainun would also support a resolution that simply condemns state sponsored CT in general, considering the WA has no ability to enforce international laws that directly affect someone's right to choose what to do with their mind and body. In conclusion, Jainun implores fellow member states to reconsider their vote and vote NAY on this resolution in favor of a reworked and improved version of the current resolution on the floor.

OOC: Never posted on a WA forum before, but this resolution really has me up in arms with regards to the impact to can have on civil liberties. Forgive me if I broke so forum rule lol, I didn't bother reading the "Read before you Post" bit