[PASSED] Don't Kill the Poor Act

[Dirty Americans]

Holy fly infested horse manure! I believe I might be the minority opinion here, but I feel I must kill this poor act; it deserves to die.

There are a lot of problems with the resolution at vote but the linchpin for most of them is a single word, "group." To understand why this is a problem we need to examine the proper definition of genocide: "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."

In short it's not just any old group and it's the entire group. Isolation of a portion of an entire group is often necessary (and in some cases with infections diseases required by W.A. law). Forced relocation of a portion of an entire group is often necessary for that portion's survival (such as natural or man made disasters). "Statistically disproportionate violence perpetrated against a group" may be the result of statistically disproportionate violence caused by a group (there are numerous examples of revolutionary sub groups within a much larger group. A portion of an entire group is by its very nature its own group. Thus the resolution moves genocide to relate to any non specific collection of people, which is an insult to those who have suffered under real examples of genocide. Had the emphasis been placed on "an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group" this resolution would have had my support.

Among the interesting things is the fact that you just make the detention of prisoners of war illegal.

[Stuiderland]

National sovereignty

[Jutsa]

Pretty sure you are already bound to provide aid to refugees ambassador.

[Caracasus]

Holy fly infested horse manure! I believe I might be the minority opinion here, but I feel I must kill this poor act; it deserves to die.

There are a lot of problems with the resolution at vote but the linchpin for most of them is a single word, "group." To understand why this is a problem we need to examine the proper definition of genocide: "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group."

In short it's not just any old group and it's the entire group. Isolation of a portion of an entire group is often necessary (and in some cases with infections diseases required by W.A. law). Forced relocation of a portion of an entire group is often necessary for that portion's survival (such as natural or man made disasters). "Statistically disproportionate violence perpetrated against a group" may be the result of statistically disproportionate violence caused by a group (there are numerous examples of revolutionary sub groups within a much larger group. A portion of an entire group is by its very nature its own group. Thus the resolution moves genocide to relate to any non specific collection of people, which is an insult to those who have suffered under real examples of genocide. Had the emphasis been placed on "an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group" this resolution would have had my support.

Among the interesting things is the fact that you just make the detention of prisoners of war illegal.

Horseshit aside, this passage bears reading.

Highlights that case-by-case imprisonment of, displacement of, or use of force against individuals does not target a general group, and so does not constitute genocide

Seems to undermine somewhat your interpretation as the immediate evacuation or quaruntine or police action against a group of potential violent criminals would surely fall under case by case basis. I concede that this would stop your officers from driving through slums blasting away at anyone hanging around there. Good.

Furthermore, this part here bears reading.

Renders crimes against humanity any acts of genocide against any group on the basis of economic status or employment,

Quaruntine of a plague zone and the removal of a population within is not targeting people for removal due to their economic status, it is targeting people based on their status as infected and needing immediate treatment.

[Kenmoria]

National sovereignty

(OOC: I do hope this is ironic. If it isn’t, then know that national sovereignty is no reason to oppose a resolution, as it is given up when joining the WA.)

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

If it isn’t, then know that national sovereignty is no reason to oppose a resolution,...

Sure it is.

[Ru-]

National sovereignty is a valid argument but only when the WA is attempting to overreach into purely national concerns, which it is not doing at all in this resolution.

Refugees and genocide are most definitely concerns of an international nature, and this proposal concerns what constitutes genocide and refugee status under WA law. This is absolutely the proper place of the WA, and to say it isn't and bring up NatSov arguments is to deny that the WA has any right to enfoce an international standard on issues of predominantly international concern, that effect all nations. Which is unreasonable for any nation that has joined the WA. If world peace and international civil rights are not the WA's business then what exactly were you expecting it to be when you signed up?

Ru has admittedly been one of the most vocal NatSov nations around here but we support this, and at the least we won't deny that NatSov concerns don't really fly with a resolution like this. The WA has a tendency to venture into affairs for which it really shouldn't have any business meddling in, but it is not doing that here and now with this proposal.

[Imperium Anglorum]

National sovereignty is a valid argument but only when the WA is attempting to overreach into purely national concerns, which it is not doing at all in this resolution.

No, it's not a valid argument unless you can also prove that the WA doing so is bad. There doesn't exist a presumptive burden either way. And in the abstract, if both sides were unable to produce argumentation either way, the action would be on balance neutral. However that is, especially in this case, one can always imagine the existence of state-sponsored murderers. I think in the weighing calculus, the high probability and impact on balance outweigh.

Refugees and genocide are most definitely concerns of an international nature, and this proposal concerns what constitutes genocide and refugee status under WA law.

However that is, this right here underlies one of the major problems with NatSov thought over the last decade. It still cannot produce a coherent analysis of where the international sphere begins and the domestic sphere ends. Consider if some nation was to kill the poor and shoot every single person who tries to get across its border such that nobody gets out. Under the presumption of an international issue, that isn't such an issue.

Yet, our moral sensibilities compel us to act. Quite simply, there exist more broad ethical reasons for international action which apply simply because actors have moral responsibilities. It is not the presence of an international issue which justifies action, but rather, the existence of those ethical responsibilities. And the point where joining the World Assembly is a voluntary act, almost anything which the WA does is justifiable based solely on consent, preempting any analysis of scope.

[Mt Beautiful]

Requires member states to render aid to individuals escaping genocide on the basis of their economic status or employment, and to consider such persons refugees.

This is unacceptable. The name of your proposal is misleading and you are just interested in pushing Globalist agenda in order to undermine nationalist states sovereignty.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"Mr. Ogenbond, you're making a serious run at Bell's orc-baiting record, at least in number of bites per unit of potential lives saved."

Steph sits down at the desk and pulls out a brown paper bag, from which a little steam can still be seen dissipating into the air. She reaches in and cracks open a peanut, then pops the kernels in her mouth.

"Please continue!"

[High Eyrie]

Am I right with the assumption, that this resolution forces member states to take in refugees?
Is it also true, that this resolution prohibits member nations from expelling hostile minorities?
In this case, i must issue protest to this horrid proposal!

[Separatist Peoples]

Am I right with the assumption, that this resolution forces member states to take in refugees?
Is it also true, that this resolution prohibits member nations from expelling hostile minorities?
In this case, i must issue protest to this horrid proposal!

"Under WA law, you can refuse asylum to refugees. You just have to help them get to a nation that will not do Bad Things^TM to them."

[AaronScythe]

+1 didn't read the resolution.

OOC: Specific quoting is somehow not read?
OOC: Adjust that attitude, you can't just discount multiple criticisms as "they didn't read it". That level of petulance is unacceptable.

[Caracasus]

+1 didn't read the resolution.

OOC: Specific quoting is somehow not read?
OOC: Adjust that attitude, you can't just discount multiple criticisms as "they didn't read it". That level of petulance is unacceptable.

Quite right. Wallenburg, that should be +1 didn't understand the resolution.

[Wallenburg]

OOC: Specific quoting is somehow not read?
OOC: Adjust that attitude, you can't just discount multiple criticisms as "they didn't read it". That level of petulance is unacceptable.

Quite right. Wallenburg, that should be +1 didn't understand the resolution.

Yes, there should be. I have made it painfully clear that case-by-case arrests and imprisonments go unaffected by this resolution. As long as suspected criminals are not denied their due process as guaranteed under existing resolutions, this resolution imposes no limits whatsoever on counterterrorism or police action against organized crime.

[Caracasus]

Quite right. Wallenburg, that should be +1 didn't understand the resolution.

Yes, there should be. I have made it painfully clear that case-by-case arrests and imprisonments go unaffected by this resolution. As long as suspected criminals are not denied their due process as guaranteed under existing resolutions, this resolution imposes no limits whatsoever on counterterrorism or police action against organized crime.

It's a nice proposal alright. Out of interest, has anyone threatened to leave the WA over this yet?

[Wallenburg]

It's a nice proposal alright. Out of interest, has anyone threatened to leave the WA over this yet?

This thread hasn't seen any threats of resignation, but there have been enough assertions of noncompliance.

[Factbook of Demiurges]

See my only concern is the fact that the last clause OBLIGATES nations to take in refugees and give them aid if another nation is committing genocide against them. However this has proven both in fictional and real life circumstances to cause public discord and to make nations take in these refugees means that I am putting my hardworking citizens safety at risk just to save the poor people of some other nation. I find this particular clause to be something I am firmly against due to the nature of the recent IRL situation surrounding the various Syrians that have caused no short amount of damage and chaos in the European nations that have taken them in, and I do not desire for similar events to occur within my own borders, as Demiurges shall always prioritize the safety of the Demiurgesian people over foreigners who are trying to act as refugees. I suggest adding in a clause that also allows the nations obligated to take in these refugees to do complete and thorough background checks on every refugee attempting to emigrate aswell as reject them based on previous criminal histories.

[Separatist Peoples]

See my only concern is the fact that the last clause OBLIGATES nations to take in refugees and give them aid if another nation is committing genocide against them. However this has proven both in fictional and real life circumstances to cause public discord and to make nations take in these refugees means that I am putting my hardworking citizens safety at risk just to save the poor people of some other nation. I find this particular clause to be something I am firmly against due to the nature of the recent IRL situation surrounding the various Syrians that have caused no short amount of damage and chaos in the European nations that have taken them in, and I do not desire for similar events to occur within my own borders, as Demiurges shall always prioritize the safety of the Demiurgesian people over foreigners who are trying to act as refugees. I suggest adding in a clause that also allows the nations obligated to take in these refugees to do complete and thorough background checks on every refugee attempting to emigrate aswell as reject them based on previous criminal histories.

"No, it doesn't. Under the Refugee Protection Act, you are allowed to refuse asylum to refugees. You just have to help them get to a jurisdiction that will not harm them in one of the ways enumerated in that act."

[The Palentine]

Son of a bitch! Who knew words don't mean what they say. For about nine years my nation's government labored under the false assumption Genocide was Genocide. Turns out the government could have been legally killing the poor all that time. Talk about a wasted opportunity. I'll have to notify my government to quickly start killing the poor before it is outlawed.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

[Xanthal]

This isn't the cafeteria. What floor am I on? Oh the Don't Kill the Poor thing; yes, I voted for that. Maybe if I retrace my steps...

[Fishy Apples]

We of the sovereign nation of Fishy Apples feel this is an affront to our culture. I mean, if we can't kill the poor, what will we eat with our apples? Do you want us all to starve?! Denying us the right to cull a valuable food stock and roast it with 11 herbs and seasonings is also genocide unto itself.

[The Eternal Kawaii]

In the Name of the Eternal Kawaii, may the Cute One be praised

Apparently "not killing the poor" has unanimous support in Anime, so we'll be voting for this resolution, despite our misgivings about the WA's competence here.

[United Free States of America]

The United Free States of America Strongly opposes this proposal due to the fact that state-sanctioned elimination of certain groups or individuals that are Parasites to the state, for example, liberals/millennials that don't work and leech on welfare, these groups need to be eliminated so they don't sink the economy.

- United Free States Of America

[Lord Dominator]

The United Free States of America Strongly opposes this proposal due to the fact that state-sanctioned elimination of certain groups or individuals that are Parasites to the state, for example, liberals/millennials that don't work and leech on welfare, these groups need to be eliminated so they don't sink the economy.

- United Free States Of America

"Generally ambassador, you can probably find more efficient solutions to that problem then just killing them all, or I would rather hope your government could."